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05-02-2007, 04:24 PM | #1 | |||||
A Voice That Gainsayeth
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Big Mystery: The Nine Rings of Power
It happens that once again, I had a simple question and I hoped to look it up here. I was searching the forums for some info about the Nine Rings of Power. I found out that there are about ten threads concerning the Rings of Power in general (not including the One), four or five about the Seven, and about fifteen threads named "The Three Rings", "The Elven Rings", "What were the rings that the Elves had?" and similar. Not a scratch about the Nine. Or at least not a scratch I was looking for.
My question is very simple. But I would certainly like to see an answer for it. A solid proof. My question is: Where were the Nine Rings at the Third Age? Now why am I asking. The question is not as simple as it might seem. We know that after the forging and assault on Eregion, Sauron took the Nine Rings of Power and gave him to the nine mortal Men. These men eventually became Ringwraith. They no longer had their other will but their master's. The Rings originally gave them might, sorcerous powers or who knows what else. Then, they left their original homes, wherever they were, and joined Sauron's ranks in Mordor. As we know, about the Seven Sauron soon learned that the Dwarves cannot be turned to slaves by them, so he wanted to collect them back. From those he got back, he kept them to himself. Wouldn't he do a similar thing with the Nine? Or what, did he leave them to the Nazgul? But he no longer needed the Nine to control the Nazgul, why should he? Or do you say a Nazgul would "die" or something like that, had you took off his Ring? What I am sure of, is that he'd certainly not quickly turn back into a normal man and crying "hooray, I'm free" returned to Rhun (or wherever he came from). And then there was that trouble with the fall of Mordor. Quote:
That's not all the questions, however. It continues: Quote:
Quote:
After some time then, the Nazgul came to Mordor, besieged Minas Morgul, shortly after Barad-Dur was rebuilt and everything went just fine. Whatever might have happened before, we are told that Quote:
The original idea had risen from the fact that nowhere, as far as I know, there is said that a Nazgul had a Ring on his hand. If someone finds a quote proving this, then I'd appreciate it. Otherwise... I'm awaiting opinions on the presented subject.
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05-03-2007, 12:47 AM | #2 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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It's Handy to have some Rings at hand
I have always thought that The Nine Rings were with The Nazgul, however you raise a good point, I have not got the passage at hand, but I am sure it states it somewhere, I also think at this time of Sauron's spirit fleeing Numenor and taking up the Great Ring again, which implies/means he left it behind when taken prisoner by Ar-Pharazon, or how could his bodiless spirit carry it back from The Downfall, this is not true of The Nazgul as they have a spirit body as such that is knitted together by power, or how else could they cloth themselves in solid matter . I have often wondered if Sauron was tempted to give the three that remained of The Seven to some other persons, would Sarumans greed for power and his jealousy of Gandalf overcome his wisdom, The Three could be worn by a non-elf why not one of the lesser rings. It seems a waste to have them idle, was the Ring that Saruman wore on his finger one of the Seven, we only have Sarumans word that he was a Ring-maker and we know how easily lies came to his mouth. I do not think that the destruction of The Lord of the Nazgul would have resulted in his Ring being destroyed, although once the One was destroyed it would just be a piece of metal. I believe that Legolas shot the winged steed and not the Ringwraith, as an arrow would not do any damage to a Nazgul.
P.S Just read The Council of Elrond, it states that the Nine are with The Nazgul, (The Nine the Nazgul keep states Gandalf). Good subject Legate .
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[B]THE LORD OF THE GRINS:THE ONE PARODY....A PARODY BETTER THAN THE RINGS OF POWER. Last edited by narfforc; 05-03-2007 at 01:36 AM. |
05-03-2007, 03:16 AM | #3 |
Shady She-Penguin
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It feels so stupid to post a one-liner after such a long and thorough research...
But maybe the Witch-King's Ring was destroyed (or it vanished just like the nazgűl himself) when he was killed...
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05-03-2007, 06:07 AM | #4 | |||||
A Voice That Gainsayeth
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Quote:
Of course, if someone wanted to use it, the claim of Gandalf that the Nazgul keep the Nine could be contested with Galadriel's words to Frodo. We might say Gandalf and Galadriel could both have the same authority and knowledge on that subject - it would be probably best to hear Saruman's opinion on this, because he was an expert on the Rings, as Gandalf says. Galadriel's statement seems to oppose the quoted: Quote:
On the other hand, the subject now moves to the line of "what the heck now happened with the Rings at the beginning of the 3rd age?" This has something to do with the incorporalness of the Ringwraith, and what exactly they can do. Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Once again, really thanks for your contributions to this topic to both of you! And I'm awaiting if anyone else has anything to say to this.
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"Should the story say 'he ate bread,' the dramatic producer can only show 'a piece of bread' according to his taste or fancy, but the hearer of the story will think of bread in general and picture it in some form of his own." -On Fairy-Stories |
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05-03-2007, 07:13 AM | #5 | ||
Guard of the Citadel
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Ok...I'm a little confused here, so if I am right
The whole question here is did the Nazgul still have the Rings or did Sauron hold the Rings during the War of the Ring? Well, as stated in the UT, when Sauron sent the Nazgul on their errand towards the end of June 3018, he still held the Rings. Quote:
I'm really confused now Also, allow me to quote from the Letters: Quote:
I think they never possesed the Rings during this whole time, and that they were always held by Sauron. As far as what Frodo saw is concerned, I am not sure what to say
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05-03-2007, 04:21 PM | #6 | |
A Voice That Gainsayeth
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Well, basically, had there not been the quote that narfforc mentioned, I'd say the Rings really were on Sauron's hand all the time... the more on what you brought forth here, TM... this was actually my first idea in this topic...
As we have only Gandalf's word on that, maybe he was simply mistaken? He didn't even see the Ringwraith - only at Weathertop (or from the height of Orthanc, which is not of any value), and while Galadriel's word might not be that important, the Author's word seems to imply that indeed the Rings were not in the possession of the Nazgul, and the Author's word should be considered of the highest authority. The trouble is that the word "held", at all the times, can be interpretated as "had in power" or something like that, whereas that the Nine Riders "kept" the rings is pretty clear - and also, it is them who are the subjects, not Sauron. As when TM mentioned UT, I looked there and this part took my interest: Quote:
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05-04-2007, 12:45 AM | #7 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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When Frodo puts on the Ring he is invisible you do not see a ring floating in mid-air, I believe this to be true of The Nine, because the Rings had totally ensnared them they and their rings are now invisible. When it comes to what Gandalf says in The Council of Elrond I put more trust in his words for they are what Tokien says and is happy with it in published form, I do not wish to be a bore but anything in UT is only what he was thinking of writing, nothing was ever finalised.
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[B]THE LORD OF THE GRINS:THE ONE PARODY....A PARODY BETTER THAN THE RINGS OF POWER. |
05-04-2007, 06:43 AM | #8 | |||
A Voice That Gainsayeth
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Quote:
Quote:
Another quote from the Silmarillion: Quote:
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"Should the story say 'he ate bread,' the dramatic producer can only show 'a piece of bread' according to his taste or fancy, but the hearer of the story will think of bread in general and picture it in some form of his own." -On Fairy-Stories |
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05-04-2007, 07:12 AM | #9 | |
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Indeed...that's a pretty clear contradiction
I took a look at tuckburough.net (along with the EoA my favourite encyclopedia) and on the page about the Nine Rings there is a pretty clear note: Quote:
Was this something Gandalf was wrong about?
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05-04-2007, 08:12 AM | #10 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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My first instinct was to say that the rings were with Sauron, what made me change my mind was Gandalf's words at The Council, some wise people are present and none contradict the statement that Gandalf makes , however I will concede that in other parts of LotRs this is contradicted, if this is so it is Tolkien to blame not Gandalf.
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[B]THE LORD OF THE GRINS:THE ONE PARODY....A PARODY BETTER THAN THE RINGS OF POWER. |
05-04-2007, 08:16 AM | #11 |
A Voice That Gainsayeth
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Sure But what you say is exactly what I thought: when you showed me the quote, I was pretty convinced that this might be actually the evidence we seek to say: "Yes, the Nazgul had the Rings." However, the more we dig into it, the more it seems we are losing in it.
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"Should the story say 'he ate bread,' the dramatic producer can only show 'a piece of bread' according to his taste or fancy, but the hearer of the story will think of bread in general and picture it in some form of his own." -On Fairy-Stories |
05-04-2007, 09:11 AM | #12 |
Shade of Carn Dűm
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Gandalf's statement to Frodo in Shadow of the Past, that Sauron, at that point, held the Nine makes more sense to me than his later assertion at the the Council of Elrond, "the nine the Nazgul keep". Since Sauron no longer had the One Ring that would rule all the others, it seems to make sense that he needs the Nine in his possession to ensure his link to and dominance of the Ringwraiths.
Still, between his 1st and second assertions, Gandalf did encounter some of the Nazgul at Weathertop. Perhaps he learned something in that encounter that caused him to alter his view as to who held the Nine. But if that is the case he doesn't mention it at the Council. |
05-04-2007, 09:39 AM | #13 | |
Loremaster of Annúminas
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Remember "'His cat,' he says, though she owns him not?" Or "I pray the Lord my soul to keep?" Tolkien loves inversions and old phrasings, and Gandalf may well be saying "The Nine keep the Nazgul."
More likely, he never noticed or corrected this statement after he had thought more about the problem. Sauron after he lost the One simply couldn't exercise dominion over the Nazgul if they still had their Rings: they would have been free agents. The most extensive discussion of the matter is found in Letter #246, which in part discusses what would have happened at the Sammath Naur without Gollum's intervention. Quote:
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05-04-2007, 01:00 PM | #14 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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This contradiction is noted by Hammond and Scull in A Readers Companion however they offer no explanation. Having read a bit more of this I am sure Tolkien changed his mind at some stage and may have left in Gandalfs statement by mistake. In HoME vol12 under The Tale of Years of The Third Age for the date:
c.1350 Evil things begin to multiply again. Orcs increase rapidly and delve in the Misty Mountains, and attack the Dwarves. The Ringwraiths stir once more. The chief of these, the wielders of the Nine Rings, becomes the Witch-king of the realm of Angmar in the north beyond Arnor, and makes war on the remnants of the Dunedain. In Appendix B (The Tale of Years) of The Lord of the Rings for the date: c.1300 Evil things begin to multiply again. Orcs increase in the Misty Mountains and attack the Dwarves. The Nazgul reappear. The chief of these comes north to Angmar. The Periannath migrate westwards; many settle at Bree. So quite clearly from the published version Tolkien had edited out the word 'wielders' which implied that the Nazgul held the Nine. Wield (Hold and Use). Another piece of editing occurs during The Siege of Gondor HoME vol8 (The War of the Ring)in this form: The Nazgul came once more, slaves of the Nine Rings, and to each, since now they were utterly subject to his will, their Lord had given again that ring of power that he had used of old. This was replaced in RotK by: The Nazgul came again, and as their Dark Lord now grew and put forth his strength, so their voices, which uttered only his will and his malice, were filled with evil and horror. Once again Tolkien is moving away from the Nazgul holding their Rings.
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[B]THE LORD OF THE GRINS:THE ONE PARODY....A PARODY BETTER THAN THE RINGS OF POWER. Last edited by narfforc; 05-04-2007 at 01:24 PM. |
05-04-2007, 02:54 PM | #15 |
Shade of Carn Dűm
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It is of course a mistake by Tolkien, probably a mistake in his writing Gandalf's words at the Council.
But I suppose, technically, if you're going by canon, you would have to say that the Nazgul possess their Rings. "The Nine the Nazgul keep" is not an inverted thought; it is a clear statement from Gandalf, and the context shows his meaning. Could Gandalf be mistaken? Of course; who cannot? But, I'll just ask the question and open myself up: Is Gandalf ever shown to be mistaken about anything in the text? There are things he's unsure about, definitely. But is he ever wrong? He may doubt whether something is X or Y (e.g., not knowing the identity of Durin's Bane), but does he say something is X when it's really Y? I'm not saying he doesn't; I just can't recall if he does or not. That's point one for believing Gandalf. Point two: Tolkien responded to a critical remark about some of Treebeard's statements by saying (and sorry, I must paraphrase), Treebeard is very old and very knowledgeable, but "he is not one of the Wise" (direct quote) and there's a lot he doesn't understand. Gandalf, on the other hand, is unquestionably one of the Wise; the implication is that we can trust statements about things like Nazgul if one of the Wise makes them. So those are grounds for believing Gandalf's unequivocal statement. Having said all that, I do indeed believe that Gandalf's statement is merely a leftover mistake by Tolkien: he states multiple times in UT and the Letters and implies elsewhere that Sauron keeps the Nine Rings. Of course, neither the Letters nor the UT are "canonical"; I believe most Tolkien geeks would agree. So I suppose it comes down to whether you're a strict constructionist, going totally by what Tolkien approved for publication, or more of a liberal.
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05-04-2007, 03:05 PM | #16 |
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William Cloud Hickli may well be right
The sentence The Nine keep the Nazgul does make sense, it would mean that it is through the Nine Rings that Sauron was still controlling the Ringwraiths...so far it's the best explanation
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05-04-2007, 03:44 PM | #17 | |||
Shade of Carn Dűm
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
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05-04-2007, 04:25 PM | #18 | |
A Voice That Gainsayeth
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Quote:
...and whether you like it or not (Hooray! It's here!), UT is canon for me, as much as the Sil. (but please let's not debate about this further - this is not our topic, after all, and we all want to stay alive )
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05-05-2007, 03:51 AM | #19 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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Robert Foster in his Complete Guide to Middle-earth has the Nazgul being destroyed with their rings when the One Ring was unmade in Orodruin, this could mean the Rings wherever they lie either with Sauron or with the Nazgul, he also goes on to say that the ring worn by the Lord of the Nazgul may have been preserved, with this statement I think that he is trying to say that the Rings may have been with the Nazgul, mainly because the remaining eight Nazgul are involved with the tumults of Orodruin, whereas the Lord of the Nazgul is destroyed on the Pelennor. I do not know where his source comes from (at the moment), however I will continue to dig (for the sake of this excellent topic, thanks to Legate), what I will say is this and in the words of Christopher Tolkien himself:
'Mr Robert Foster's Complete Guide to Middle-Earth supplies, as I have found through frequent use, an admirable work of reference.' High praise from one so learned and wise in the lore of Middle-Earth. Elven Sillyloonymen Ohmygoshello (I am starry-eyed by your greeting). .
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[B]THE LORD OF THE GRINS:THE ONE PARODY....A PARODY BETTER THAN THE RINGS OF POWER. Last edited by narfforc; 05-05-2007 at 03:55 AM. |
05-06-2007, 07:54 AM | #20 |
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On page 302 of The Silmarillion (Of the Rings of Power and the Third age) Mithrandir speaking to The White Council states: Soon he will be too strong for you, even without the Great Ring; for he rules the Nine, and of the Seven he has recovered three...
It is strange that Tolkien uses the word rules and not holds, keeps or weilds. In Unfinished Tales (The Hunt for the Ring) we are told: They were by far the most powerful of his servants, and the most suitable for such a mission, since they they were entirely enslaved to their Nine Rings, which he (Sauron) now himself held. I have the feeling that Tolkien saw Sauron with the Nine, one can hold power in Government and rule at the same time.
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