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04-20-2007, 11:27 AM | #1 |
Doubting Dwimmerlaik
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Seven: Four From Five or One?
What happened to the Seven Dwarven Rings? We have this:
Seven Rings of Power were created for the ensnarement of the Dwarves; four were destroyed and three were with Sauron at the end of the Third Age.
Smaug doesn't get Thrór's Ring; Sauron aka the Necromancer reclaims it in the pits of Dol Guldur from Thráin, although this isn't known to the Dwarves until Gandalf informs them during the Council of Elrond. So the Dwarves had some knowledge of the disposition of the Seven, though that knowledge wasn’t complete. Although the secretive folk may not have announced to the rest of the world where the Seven may be stowed, seemingly some Dwarves knew.
A dragon could, in theory, melt/consume a Ring of Power, excepting the One. Regardless, we have four that aren't reclaimed, and if Sauron can't find something*, you can pretty sure that it's no longer available. This means that four were indeed melted or consumed by Dragons. I can't see the Dwarves feeding the Rings to the Dragons, but more likely the Dragons biting and eating the five-fingered hand that bore the Ring - that or completely cooking the Dwarf that held the Ring on one of its five fingers (assuming that Dwarves have five digits). The Dragon would then have to destroy the Ring completely, as a Dwarf wouldn’t leave the valuable item lying about - or sit on it like a hen to keep Durin’s folk from having it. If it ate the Ring, I would assume that the Dwarves would make a go of performing some type of medical procedure via an axe to see if the Ring remained with the gullet of the Worm (assuming that Dragons had gullets). Also it can be assumed that these four Rings weren't born by your average run-of-the-mine Dwarf, but some Dwarf-lord with quadra-forked beard. So, to recap: Four rings, four Dwarf-lords, four Dragons of some repute. Why then do we not read anything about the massive battles that obviously must have taken place in each of these four cases? *Unless hidden by a witless hobbit.
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04-20-2007, 12:14 PM | #2 | |
Cryptic Aura
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The Zero-One
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Oh wait. Wrong story. Possibly the fire of the dragons was so strong that not only were the rings vapourised but even the paper upon which the story was written was singed. On the other hand, perhaps CT has more stories to bring out. |
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04-20-2007, 12:25 PM | #3 | |||
Doubting Dwimmerlaik
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04-20-2007, 02:53 PM | #4 |
Beloved Shadow
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Did Kuru give you permission to start this thread?
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04-20-2007, 07:01 PM | #5 | |
Doubting Dwimmerlaik
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04-20-2007, 08:33 PM | #6 | ||
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04-21-2007, 03:20 AM | #7 | ||
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04-21-2007, 03:41 AM | #8 | |
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Of the original possesors of the Rings we know very little.
According to Dwarf legend, the first of the Seven to be forged had already been given by the Elves to Durin III, so Sauron could not find it. But Sauron took the remaining six Rings and distributed them to other Dwarf lords. Firstly, we don't even know who these lords were, though it is in my opinion a tempting idea to think they belonged to each of the other six houses, since this way, Sauron could corrupt more at once. But, of course, this is only speculation. Quote:
It could be their possessors had wandered off driven by the need for more gold, more treasure and were lost in the wilderness and then attacked by Dragons. I don't think we have to necessarily think of large battles against dragons, and if some did take place, they might have taken place in far away lands, as Legate already said.
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04-21-2007, 08:09 PM | #9 | ||
Doubting Dwimmerlaik
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You'd think that someone would have survived, and, of course, that has me thinking of any event in ME history where there were no survivors ("If a hero falls alone in a forest..."). Thorin never lets Smaug have a pass, though no lord or Ring was lost in the Erebor incident. Methinks that given a few hundreds years, Tolkien would have filled these tales in as well - and Peter Jackson could have filmed them. Thanks for your thoughts.
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04-22-2007, 05:40 AM | #10 |
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There's several reasons why I've been fascinated by the dwarves: first, their creation story and second, the absence of much story about them. (And another one too, that derives from the nature of their language, but that's less germane here.) I suppose I get bored with all the elves and their nostalgia because they've left substantial evidence and much narrative about them. But of those who pass without long memorial, well, there's so much more to imagine, poignantly.
I think alatar is right about the potential for wonderful dragon stories. After all, we read in OFS Tolkien's confession of his great longing for stories about dragons and so we can imagine that there would be a strong attraction there: his imagination was with dragons. But there is a problem, too, in writing too much about the destruction of rings. If the One Ring and its end in Mount Doom is the ultimate story, would 'precursor' stories merely take away some of the . . . fire . . . of the final destruction? Then, how would one maintain narrative interest in a back story--four of them--of the other rings' destruction? How many times can a ring be melted before it becomes impossible to maintain interest? (Now, I say this and remember that Scheherazade kept up her storytelling skills over a good many nights.) And I suppose another quandry might be the place of dragons in Middle-earth. Do they belong to the lore of TH or do they belong to the less fanciful LotR? Recently an Old English scholar known for his admiration of Tolkien complained in his blog about talking foxes in Lot R. How would dragons have to be handled to satisfy such wits? I can imagine an ironic tale about a dragon's lust for the ring, only for him--are dragons all male?--to be cheated of his prize at the end by his unknowingly destroying it with his fire. On the other hand, the elves were given three rings and those were not destroyed until they lost their power with the destruction of The One. Why were the dwarven rings lost? Were the dwarves, with their greater resistance to the power of the One, able to understand something which the elves could not? |
04-22-2007, 07:45 PM | #11 | |||
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"The Dwarven capitol of Southwestern Khand, ZiggyMarleyHall, overrun by DepecheMode the Goth." Quote:
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04-23-2007, 03:15 AM | #12 |
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When Tolkien tells us that some of the Dwarves' rings were 'consumed by dragons' it could be taken one of two ways: they may have been eaten by the Dragons, or they may have been 'consumed' by Dragonfire as they were burnt up and destroyed. That second idea is very exciting!
Now, Dragons love treasure as much as Dwarves do, and the Rings brought to their bearers even more treasure - each was associated with a hoarde. Given that the Dwarves and the Dragons shared much of the North between them the chances of conflict must have been high. That some of the Dragons 'consumed' some of the Dwarves' rings must mean that there were independent Dragons, free of the control of Sauron and hence not terribly worried about destroying his Rings of Power in order to get their claws on that treasure (does this mean there were also female Dragons and Dragon babies?). It conjours up all kinds of possibilities for truly Northern myths - tales of Dwarf Lords and their hoardes of treasure, glittering mountains of gold and gemstones hidden under the mountains; their power and wealth increased by the Rings they held, but their minds not fully corrupted. Then into the caverns came the Wyrms and the Drakes, some bold and brassy, some small and sneaky and concealing their literal firepower. There would be battles of course, and maybe at times stealth attacks, the clever Drake coming across the Dwarf Lord sitting proudly on guard outside the vault housing his hoarde and just blasting him to dust, having worked out that he needs to destroy the Ring in order to get hold of that hoarde. And another thing that fascinates me...Why did Sauron want his Dwarf rings back?
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04-23-2007, 12:09 PM | #13 | |||
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Were the Dragons located/designated so that each would spoil a specific treasure hold (which usualy was surrounded by a Dwarven community), or were they more freelance, foraging for treasure wherever they could find it? Does this mean that Dragons fought one another? Would one Dragon try to take the Ring of another? Why were there no Dragons in Moria? It had treasure, the possibility of a Ring and Dwarves - what's not to like? Sure, there was a Balrog running about, but given enough avarice (especially if the Dragon held a Ring), that fear could be surmounted. Quote:
Or maybe he saw how much they would bring on eBay...
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04-24-2007, 10:03 PM | #14 | |
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This is a topic that becomes increasingly awkward the more one investigates it.
Virtually all the information we possess about the Dwarf-rings contradicts some other information we possess about the Dwarf-rings. Keeping this in the context of the story, I suppose this is attributable to the secretive nature of the Dwarves. In spite of what is said… Quote:
Michael Martinez in his essay “Them Dwarves, Them Dwarves, Part II” said that it was by no means certain that all seven Dwarf-rings were given to kings, and Tolkien never explicitly said that in his capacity as author. However, the implication is thick in the air…Seven Rings and Seven Houses with Seven Kings. Who else would have gotten the rings except for the kings? As alatar noted above, Gandalf believed that the Dwarf-rings had gone to the kings. Of course, it could be argued that Gandalf would not be as knowledgeable about dwarf matters as he would be about, say, elves. However, Thrain, who would probably be expected to know, was positive that his ring was the last, and everybody we ever come across holds the same opinion. So, taking this as a starting point, anybody who knew about the Rings would probably have a pretty good idea who had them. The mystery, as far as the Longbeards are concerned, didn’t start until they abandoned Khazad-dum and then was aggravated when Thror went batty and ran off and nobody except Thrain knew that Thror had given him the ring. All this indicates one of two things, either after the rings were lost the dwarves didn’t have a problem telling outsiders about their loss or that knowledge about who had the rings was pretty common among people in the know about such things. The next oddity is the way in which the fates of the various rings are divided up. Three return to Sauron and four are destroyed. Durin’s Ring is one of the ones that returned to Sauron. Which two the others must be is not too difficult to guess. According to my personal view, almost by default these have to be the rings that belonged to the Firebeards and Broadbeams. We know very little of these peoples after the end of the First Age. The Firebeards were probably permanently broken and there were probably very few of them left in subsequent ages. The Broadbeams did not suffer a catastrophic population loss in battle, but they must have lost a large portion of their homes in the destruction of Beleriand and depending on how the destruction happened they may have lost a lot of people in this event. There is some talk about the Broadbeams going to Khazad-dum…but then what? Nothing more is said of them. They may have merged with the Longbeards or simply lived with them as a separate people. If they merged we don’t have seven houses anymore and then things get really messy. I personally, upon no evidence whatsoever, tend to the idea that what few Firebeards survived never left the Blue Mountains and they never recovered their power in a meaningful way. Since the Broadbeams are mentioned as having gone to Khazad-dum, I have to accept that. However, again based upon no particular evidence, I think they probably went back to the Blue Mountains before too long. I think their population must have dropped at the end of the First Age…or if you prefer, not many of them went back to the Blue Mountains. On the other hand, there is also no reason to suppose that they went back to the Blue Mountains, assuming a hypothesis that they left Khazad-dum. They could have gone anywhere. But the fact remains that we never hear of them again. I personally think they did go to the Blue Mountains because the Blue Mountains were safe. This gets us into difficulties because there were never any dragons in the area of the Blue Mountains. This leads to a division of the three western Houses had their rings repossessed and the four eastern houses had their rings eaten…which seems a little arbitrary. However, if a dragon had gone to the Blue Mountains and eaten a dwarf-king I think we would know about it because the dragon would probably have remained in the area and caused all the usual problems in the neighborhood. Orc raids, on the other hand, could have come down from the far north into the Blue Mountains and not have been known to any of our chroniclers or at least not have excited any attention until after it was known that a king had been killed and a ring taken. (Please don’t mention that it is quite likely that a bunch of the dwarves probably lived south of the Gulf of Lune). This leaves wondering why the eastern dwarf rings were eaten by dragons. For that, we have that reliable old standby of an explanation, “we don’t know what went on in eastern middle earth.” For those among you who exhibited excellent taste in reading my third arcane topic, you know that I think the eastern dwarves fell into evil of a kind, but were not necessarily subjugated to Sauron. Sauron might at some point have used dragons to try to bring the more independent minded in line. I personally think that the dragons were largely free actors outside of Sauron’s direct control and that they went rampaging about eating what they wanted. On the whole, I suspect the dragons ate the rings not realizing what they were, and not necessarily noticing that they’d eaten a ring at all.
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05-03-2007, 05:39 PM | #15 | |||||||
Doubting Dwimmerlaik
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And the Nine were forced together. Quote:
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And what about the petty dwarves? Quote:
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Excellent post, Kuruharan, and thanks for your very informative input. Not that you answered the question...
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05-09-2007, 07:37 AM | #16 | ||
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05-09-2007, 10:02 AM | #17 | ||
Doubting Dwimmerlaik
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05-18-2007, 08:38 AM | #18 | ||
Doubting Dwimmerlaik
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Appendix B
Appendix B, The Tale of Years, of The Return of the King, gives us a hint regarding when the Dragons may have consumed the four Rings of Power.
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So, to me, with the fall of Dáin, we know the fate of one. Three to go...
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