More than meets the Eye

[ninja91]

In The Shadow of the Past in FOTR, Gandalf tells Frodo that Sauron left his old fortress in Dol Guldur for his ancient stronghold in Mordor, Barad-Dur. Does this mean possibly that Sauron, even during the War of the Ring still had a physical form? There was no Eye at Mirkwood, but an evil necromancer. Since he left Dol Guldur and left for Mordor, was there a physical form? Was there a actual Sauron that actually dwelt in the tower, aside from the Great Eye?

[Raynor]

Yes, he had a body

Originally Posted by Letter #246

Sauron should be thought of as very terrible. The form that he took was that of a man of more than human stature, but not gigantic.

also, Gollum's referrence, in The Black Gate is Closed, RotK, to his four fingers implies a body too.

[Boromir88]

Raynor's correct, Tolkien uses 'The Eye' as a symbol and a metaphor not as an actual physical presense (as Jackson portrays in the movies).

In literature the symbol of 'The Eye' is used to show this all-watching, all-seeing, and always present force. For examples...

In George Orwell's book 1984, the symbol of Big Brother is a giant eye...and Big Brother is the dominating government that knows everything and sees everything within it's country of Oceania.

The Freemasons use the 'Eye of Providence' to symbolize God watching over and his protection. Also the Eygptians 'Eye of Horus' is similar to this.

So the Eye can be associated not only with evil (dominating, all-seeing and control) but also with good (as in the form of protection). Tolkien actually first gives the symbol of the Eye to explain Morgoth:

’It is true, of course, that Morgoth held the Orcs in dire thraldom;for in their corruption they had lost almost all possibility of resisting the domination of his will. So great indeed did its presure upon them become ere Angband fell that, if he turned his thought towards them, they were conscious of his ’eye’ wherever they might be. ......

This servitude to a central will that reduced the Orcs almost to an ant-like life was seen even more plainly in the Second and Third Age under the tyrrany of Sauron.~Home X; Morgoth's Ring, Myths Transformed

So, In HoME X, we see that the symbol of the Eye first is given to Morgoth and then under Sauron's power of the 2nd and 3rd ages the domination and tyrrany of Sauron intensifies.

So, Sauron does have a physical body during the War of the Ring, and The Eye is used as a symbol and metaphor. And when 'The Eye of Sauron' is mentioned it's used in passing to describe Sauron's omnipresense and control (and I think there is one time when Frodo had a vision of 'The Eye of Sauron'). But a vision isn't always reality.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

I might also add, that when Pippin was looking into the Palantír, he saw Sauron - and probably in physical form, judging from Pippin's style of description:

Then he came. He did not speak so that I could hear words. He just looked, and I understood.
'"So you have come back? Why have you neglected to report for so long?"
I did not answer. He said: "Who are you?" I still did not answer, but it hurt me horribly; and he pressed me, so I said: "A hobbit."
Then suddenly he seemed to see me, and he laughed at me. It was cruel. It was like being stabbed with knives. I struggled. But he said: "Wait a moment! We shall meet again soon. Tell Saruman that this dainty is not for him. I will send for it at once. Do you understand? Say just that!"
Then he gloated over me. I felt I was falling to pieces. No, no! I can't say any more. I don't remember anything else.

[MatthewM]

But...but...I thought that Gandalf said Sauron wasn't powerful enough without the Ring to take physical form?

[Boromir88]

Mathew, I think you might be confusing some lines with the movies. I know in the movies Gandalf says he can not yet take a physical form, but I don't remember that being in the books.

Raynor mentioned Gollum's remark (in The Black Gate is Closed) where Gollum remarks that Sauron had 'four fingers on his black hand; but that is enough.'

Also there are several instances where there is a reference to Sauron coming...Legate mentioned Pippin's encounter with the palantir...'Then he came.' Another one that comes to mind is when Denethor says 'He will only come to triumph over me when all is won.'

And...

'But that of course did not destroy the spirit, nor dismiss it from the world to which it was bound until the end. After the battle with Gilgalad and Elendil, Sauron took a long while to re-build, longer than he had done after the Downfall of Numenor (I suppose because each building-up used up some of the inherent energy of the spirit, which might be called the 'will' or the effective link between the indestructible mind and being and the realization of its imagination).'~Letter 200

After Sauron was overthrown by Gil-galad and Elendil Sauron did re-build his body, it just took him longer than before. I guess you could read this as implying if you simply killed Sauron enough times he wouldn't have enough 'will' to build himself a new body.

[MatthewM]

Good post. Yeah, I was posting that with the movies in mind. Sometimes I forget that PJ made a lot of things that shouldn't have been made up, up.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

After Sauron was overthrown by Gil-galad and Elendil Sauron did re-build his body, it just took him longer than before. I guess you could read this as implying if you simply killed Sauron enough times he wouldn't have enough 'will' to build himself a new body.

Also, in each reincarnation, Sauron's form devolved into his more inward disposition. No longer could he take the fair form of Annatar and hope by his outward beauty to deceive; his evil got the best of even his appearance, as seen similarly in the last days of Saruman.

It was either that or the pipeweed smoke.

It does make one wonder, at the end of all things in RotK (the book), what Aragorn and company do with the body (if anything even existed), armour and/or effects of Sauron? Were they spirited away by henchmen so that a new power could arise with the literal mantle of the Dark Lord in the Fourth Age?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by alatar

It does make one wonder, at the end of all things in RotK (the book), what Aragorn and company do with the body (if anything even existed), armour and/or effects of Sauron? Were they spirited away by henchmen so that a new power could arise with the literal mantle of the Dark Lord in the Fourth Age?

Um... I'm not sure, but I was under the impression that they ended buried in the ruins of Barad-Dur. Maybe some late Fourth-Age archaeologists could be able to find them, but I don't think Aragorn&co would have any access to them, or any need to solve these things.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Um... I'm not sure, but I was under the impression that they ended buried in the ruins of Barad-Dur. Maybe some late Fourth-Age archaeologists could be able to find them, but I don't think Aragorn&co would have any access to them, or any need to solve these things.

Sure, and the One Ring rolled down the Anduin to the Sea...

It was just a thought, as a body has clothes, stuff ends up in its pocketses, and what a good start to some fanfic (or ME AD&D campaign) this would make.

[Raynor]

Hm, how about Sauron's body vanishing altogether when he died, in a manner somewhat similar to Feanor's? After all, it was the power of the ring that made it possible for him to have this body in the first place.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by alatar

It was just a thought, as a body has clothes, stuff ends up in its pocketses, and what a good start to some fanfic (or ME AD&D campaign) this would make.

Yes, but come on, that's one of the most (tries to think of a corresponding English word. Heck, who cares) overcooked thing which comes to a person's mind in the first moment when he wants to make a sequel. A typical "braque fantasy" story. "Gwahlrd Ndhaarad from Khand was a simple peasant. In his eighteen years, he is banished from his tribe. Treading the vast desert of Gorgoroth, he finds an ancient artifact of incredible power - the armor of Sauron the Dark Lord. Gwahlrd returns to his homeland, where he claims the rulership of his tribe and soon, the following tribes as well. What he does not know is, that the will of the Dark Lord still remains in the black armor, and that slowly, he starts to become something even he did not predice... a new Dark Lord of Middle-Earth."
(This could be written on the back of a paperback book, quite many silly fans will certainly buy it.)

(...and of course, under it there will be written: "First book of the Eastwar Saga")

[sallkid]

I believe (but don't quote me on this) that the mountain erupted after the ring was destroyed (the single justifiable case of "base blows up when bad guy dies" in fiction) if the fire was hot eough to melt the one ring, which even dragon-fire could not tarnish, then surely it was hot enough to destroy his raiments and armour (if armour he had) utterly.

[Sir Kohran]

Just wondering...could the four fingers reference from Gollum be a metaphor? Though Sauron is missing his most important 'finger' (the Ring), he still has enough power (sheer military might) to win anyway.

However, the idea of Gollum actually meeting Sauron is a chilling one, when we think of Gandalf's numerous allusions to what actually meeting the dark lord would do to someone. It would explain quite a bit of why Gollum became the way he did.

[Lalwendë]

Why an eye?

The Eye is a powerful symbol in culture as Boro has pointed out - and not least in the symbol of the All-Seeing Eye (as seen on the US banknotes - the eye in the pyramid) which has a sinister and quite complex history. I know Lewis and Williams were interested in the occult/esoteric, and no doubt such topics were discussed between the Inklings - what might Tolkien have picked up on?

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

(...and of course, under it there will be written: "First book of the Eastwar Saga")

Do you know when that series is coming out then?

Okay, so in retrospect it was a little weak, kind of like finding a Ring that allows some dark lord to take over, even though it seems that he was doing a pretty good job without it. Anyway, getting back to my less-weak idea that, to me, you'd want to make sure that nothing remained so that no one could cash in on your tale (Aragorn's kingship entitled him to review all books concerning the End of the Third Age, and think that the Red Book states that others had a hand in its making [Strider: "Think that I appeared more mysterious when you met me in Bree, and if I, your King, remembers correctly, I definitely was NOT eating nachos...]), or, like Isildur, you'd want some token to display showing that indeed the bad guy was truly dead, and didn't the Númenóreans cart (well, boat) Sauron, the Lord of Gifts back to the Land of Gift just to show everyone else that the maia had been humbled?

Originally Posted by sallkid

I believe (but don't quote me on this) that the mountain erupted after the ring was destroyed (the single justifiable case of "base blows up when bad guy dies" in fiction) if the fire was hot eough to melt the one ring, which even dragon-fire could not tarnish, then surely it was hot enough to destroy his raiments and armour (if armour he had) utterly.

Think that Mount Doom was far enough away from Barad-dûr that no lava fell upon the tower. Sauron's abode did collapse, as its foundations were tied to the Ring in some way, but this doesn't mean that something of the old Eye couldn't have survived to be scavenged.

Originally Posted by Sir Kohran

Just wondering...could the four fingers reference from Gollum be a metaphor? Though Sauron is missing his most important 'finger' (the Ring), he still has enough power (sheer military might) to win anyway.

To my knowledge Gollum didn't, at least in this case, wax poetic like Gandalf (or Gimli - PJ has me so confused) about Sauron's reach regarding the storm up on Caradhras. Gollum speaks of Sauron just like any other creature he'd encountered.

However, the idea of Gollum actually meeting Sauron is a chilling one, when we think of Gandalf's numerous allusions to what actually meeting the dark lord would do to someone. It would explain quite a bit of why Gollum became the way he did.

Truly. Think that this speaks to the inherent 'power' within hobbit folk. What other mortal could have been brought before the Lidless Eye and yet retain a fierce independence of will, especially regarding the Ring. That or Gollum was so mixed up in the head that Sauron didn't have anything with which to work.

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

Why an eye?

The 'Clavicle' just didn't inspire the same fear, nor could anyone recognize the symbol ("Uglúk thinks you servants of the ~ eat diacritic marks.")

The Eye is a powerful symbol in culture as Boro has pointed out - and not least in the symbol of the All-Seeing Eye (as seen on the US banknotes - the eye in the pyramid) which has a sinister and quite complex history. I know Lewis and Williams were interested in the occult/esoteric, and no doubt such topics were discussed between the Inklings - what might Tolkien have picked up on?

Been thinking about this. Is it that we humans are very eye-centric? Does this stem from our days (and nights) of being hunted, and by the time you saw the whites of the predator's eyes, it was too late? Does it symbolize the ultimate control, as stated above ala 1984, where someone's always watching you, dampening the good things, by usurping them, and noting/exploiting the bad that you do? Why is the purported #1 fear public speaking? To be in front of a bunch of eyes that, like Sauron, have the power to humiliate you? Never used this one, but everyone always says to get over one's fear, one is to imagine the audience as appearing in its undergarments. Is this how Gollum withstood the gaze of Sauron, as, as we are discussing, DID have a body...?