Denethor’s Unwelcoming Manner

[Lotessa]

I’ve been puzzling about Denethor’s caution towards Gandalf when he requested to see Denethor’s scrolls and books:

Less welcome did the Lord Denethor show me than of old and grudgingly permitted me to search among his hoarded scrolls and books.

This is from The Council of Elrond when Gandalf was giving an account of what he had been doing over the years.
I have been wondering why Denethor was reluctant to let Gandalf look at his scrolls.

Thanks.

~Lotessa

[Child of the 7th Age]

The enmity and tension between Denethor and Gandalf actually go back long before this.

Take a look at the section labelled "The Stewards" in Appendix A and you will see that Denethor heartily disliked Aragorn (known in this earlier period as Thorongil), and that Thorongil was the one who recommended Gandalf's counsel to the Steward. Denethor was bitterly jealous of Thorongil and the esteem in which his father Eckthelion held him as well as the people of Gondor's high regard for Thorongil.

Here is a quote from the Appendix relating to all this:

Denethor II was a proud man, tall, valiant, and more kingly than any man that had appeared in Gondor for many lives of men; and he was wise also, and far-sighted, and learned in lore. Indeed he was as like to Thorongil as to one of nearest kin, and yet was ever placed second to the stranger in the hearts of men and the esteem of his father. At the time many thought that Thorongil had departed before his rival became his master [ i.e. before Eckthelion died and Denethor became steward ]; though indeed Thorongil had never view with Denethor, nor held himself higher than the servant of his father. And in one matter only were their counsels to the Steward at variance: Thorongil often warned Eckthelion not to put trust in Saruman the White in Isengard, but to welcome rather Gandalf the Grey. But there was little love between Dennethor and Gandalf; and afer the days of Eckthelion there was less welcome for the Grey Pilgrim in Minas Tirith.

Appendix A goes on to explain the possible underlying reason for Denethor's hatred of Thorongil and his supporter Gandalf. Since Denethor had a subtle mind, and looked longer and deeper than other men of his day, he may have actually discovered who Thorongil was, wrongly suspecting that he and Gandalf plotted to supplant him.

Given this situation, it's not surprising that Denethor would only grudgingly give Gandalf access to any ancient scrolls. For all he knew, they would find something that would buttress Aragorn's claim to the throne of Gondor! And, even though that was not the object of Gandalf's search, it's likely that Denethor did not trust him.

[ November 10, 2003: Message edited by: Child of the 7th Age ]

[Liriodendron]

You mentioned the father/son thing. Again, this? [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] [img]smilies/confused.gif[/img] So, Denethor might have harbored some jealousy against Thorongil, (young Aragorn) because his father (Echthelion) held Thorongil in high esteem? Too bad! Then he does the same thing to his own sons. Nice chip on the shoulder.... [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img] I don't know, Denethor doesn't seem too "wise" to me! [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[Meela]

! A Denethor topic! Good one!
Seems there's no need for me to spread my expertise on the man here...

Yeah, there appears to have been some major family problems there. Denethor had a bit of a grudge and did the same to his sons. Not very nice of him.

So, did Denethor only meet Gandalf when Thorongil introduced him? Obviously, if they meet under circumstances of jealousy and rivalry, there's not much hope for a future friendship of any sort.

[Kalimac]

Wow, Child, you dig deep [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]. Good stuff, you've pretty much said it all. The only thing I wanted to add was that since Gandalf says that Denethor showed him "less welcome" than of old, that would imply that even if the relationship was never exactly warm ("Hi Denethor! Meet Thorongil, my protege!") something had happened since their last meeting to make it even cooler. My two guesses as to what may have made the temperature go even further down are simple: Faramir, and the Palantir. Faramir by now has grown up and is getting on better with Gandalf's style of thinking than with his father's, and Denethor would resent that very much. Also, though he has had the Palantir in his possession for a long time, Gandalf states later that he did not start to really get out of control until a few years before the end, as he grew more afraid. Not that Denethor could ever have really been in control of the Palantir with Sauron at the other end, but he would have been starting to use it less moderately and growing more worried and unbalanced.

[Child of the 7th Age]

Kalimac,

I think you're right.

The close ties between Faramir and Gandalf had to have been upsetting to Denethor. Certainly, it gave him another reason to show his open preference for his older son.

I hadn't thought before about how the Palantir would have influenced his judgments and personality, but I suspect you are right.

Child

[Finwe]

Denethor probably also found out who Thorongil actually was, and resented the fact that some "scrap" out of the North was destined to come and take the kingdom that rightfully belonged to him (referring to Denethor) and his heirs. In fact, when Gandalf and Pippin are talking to Denethor, he as much as says straight out that he refuses to acknowledge the claim of anyone else, especially Aragorn. As it was, Ecthelion greatly loved Thorongil, almost like a son. Imagine how jealous Denethor would have been. "Thorongil's so brave! Thorongil defeated the Corsairs! I really hope that Thorongil comes home so I can honor him!" For any child, hearing about someone else (non-related) would get a little tiring, and would result in a LOT of jealousy and hard feelings.

[Lotessa]

Wow Child! Many thanks for your insightful explaination! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

It answered my question.

~Lotessa