Who were the Nazgul?

Who were the Nazgul?:-

- Which race of men did each come from?

- How did each Nazgul rank to each other?

- What were their names?

- Did they have any descendants?

- Why did they fear fire?

[Raynor]

- Which race of men did each come from?
- How did each Nazgul rank to each other?
- What were their names?

As far as I know, the race of only three of them is known:

Originally Posted by Akallabeth, Silmarillion

Yet Sauron was ever guileful, and it is said that among those whom he ensnared with the Nine Rings three were great lords of Numenorean race.

Khamul, the second to the witch-king, is called the "black easterling" in the Hunt for the Ring, Unfinished Tales, and the Shadow of the east. For the rest, I know no other information.

[The Might]

Only wanted to add that, as far as their ranks are concerned, they are based on their link to the Ring, and not on their previous status in a certain society. For example it is said about the Witch-king that he was always most ready to sense the presence of the Ring. Second to him in this was Khamul, who was also the one to be most disturbed by sunlight. So clearly their qualities differed, perhaps creating a certain hierarchy.
About your descendants question...I don't know any answer either. Could be, but considering this shroud of mystery around them, I doubt that such things would have been known.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Yes, I think TM quite got it. There is not much information about them apart from what was said here. Only to that fire thing,

Sauron can put fire to his evil uses, as he can all things, but these Riders do not love it, and fear those who wield it.

I think fire might represent here the cleansing power, something which gives light in the darkness, and also the heat: as an opposite to cold and death the Riders represent. It is just a speculation, however, can't think of much more.

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Yes, I think TM quite got it. There is not much information about them apart from what was said here. Only to that fire thing,

I think fire might represent here the cleansing power, something which gives light in the darkness, and also the heat: as an opposite to cold and death the Riders represent. It is just a speculation, however, can't think of much more.

The Witch King didn't seem to be afraid of the fire than ran down his blade when he confronted Gandalf. Also, if the Nazgul fear fire, doesn't than mean they would be in great fear of the Balrog in battle?

[Hookbill the Goomba]

Originally Posted by The Encyclopedia of Arda FAQ

What were the names of the nine Nazgûl?


One of them, the second in rank after the Lord of the Nazgûl himself, was named Khamûl, and also known as the Black Easterling. This is the only one of the nine Nazgûl explicitly named by Tolkien.
This may come as a surprise if you've come across one of the many sources that list a set of names of the other eight: Murazor (the Witch-king himself), Dwar, Ji Indur, Akhorahil, Hoarmurath, Adunaphel, Ren and Uvatha. These names are common across the Web, and often have detailed biographies to go with them. They're also consistent with what Tolkien had to say about the origins of the Nazgûl: in the Akallabêth it is stated '...among those whom he ensnared with the Nine Rings three were great lords of Númenórean race', and indeed three of these names are Númenórean in form: Murazor, Akhorahil and Adunaphel.

None of these eight names, though, have their origins in Tolkien's own work. Instead, they come from a series of role-playing and trading card games produced by Iron Crown Enterprises. The names of Murazor, Dwar and the rest emerged from the unavoidable need for these games to develop and expand Tolkien's universe to meet the needs of the gaming fraternity. The games' popularity accounts for the regular appearance of the names, to the extent that they're now frequently presented as the 'true' names of the remaining eight Nazgûl.

Some readers have even suggested that these names are so widely accepted that they should be considered the de facto names for the eight otherwise unnamed Ringwraiths. On a personal level, or in the context of the games that spawned the names, this isn't an unreasonable approach: if Tolkien never told us the name of, say, the Witch-king, there seems little obvious harm in imagining that his name was originally Murazor (or anything else, for that matter). Things become a little more problematic where the names are published without explanation: we receive plenty of e-mail from puzzled readers trying to work out which of Tolkien's books the names come from (hence this entry in the FAQ).

As for The Encyclopedia of Arda, this site is very specifically aimed at exploring Tolkien's own works, so it really isn't appropriate to include names or biographical details that we know did not come from Tolkien himself. Indeed, the same principle applies to characters who appear only in the recent movies, so it's not our intention to provide entries for (say) Hoarmurath, Uvatha or - for that matter - Lurtz from Peter Jackson's movie of The Fellowship of the Ring.

In short... we don't know.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Mansun

The Witch King didn't seem to be afraid of the fire than ran down his blade when he confronted Gandalf. Also, if the Nazgul fear fire, doesn't than mean they would be in great fear of the Balrog in battle?

I think not (about the Balrog). You see, that was the "evil" fire (cf. the quote above). You can imagine it, fire, that does not give heat to warm up your bones, but unbearable heat to kill you, or a consuming, destroying fire. However the quote implies that the Nazgul were especially afraid of fire in all its aspects, this just signifies their connection with night and darkness. But if it came to this, they could have used the fire for evil - something like the Orcs could, though with reluctance, roam the surface in sunlight.
But in general - I think that the idea of "if the Nazgul ever encountered the balrog" would be most probably unimaginable in Middle-Earth. After all, Nazgul never encountered the Balrog and I think Tolkien didn't even want them to. He avoided things like this. We do not know enough about the Nazgul nor about the Balrog (do they have wings?) to decide such a thing, and the Professor didn't provide any such informations. As far as I now, that is.

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

I think that the idea of "if the Nazgul ever encountered the balrog" would be most probably unimaginable in Middle-Earth. After all, Nazgul never encountered the Balrog and I think Tolkien didn't even want them to. He avoided things like this. We do not know enough about the Nazgul nor about the Balrog (do they have wings?) to decide such a thing, and the Professor didn't provide any such informations. As far as I now, that is.

The Nazgul could have acquired the services of the Balrog in Mordor. The Balrog then would have taken command as the chief servant of Sauron perhaps, although there is no evidence that the Balrog recognised Sauron as his master, only the now departed Morgoth.

Certainly Sauron knew of the existence of the Balrog (especially at the point when his orcs entered Moria), and the Balrog seems to have tolerated the presence of Sauron's orcs. Yet I do not believe that Sauron could have controlled or commanded the Balrog - at this time he lacked the One Ring which held a large part of his native power. Without the One Ring, Sauron would not have had the ability to dominate a will as strong as a Balrog.

[Elmo]

Balrog in Mordor???

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by Mansun

The Nazgul could have acquired the services of the Balrog in Mordor. The Balrog then would have taken command as the chief servant of Sauron perhaps, although there is no evidence that the Balrog recognised Sauron as his master, only the now departed Morgoth.

Mansun, as far as I am aware, you are only quoting from the Grey Havens website, not from Tolkien, as one could wonder at your post. All of that is a matter of pure speculation.

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

There's an article about this on Alcuin's site that's well worth a look. Origins of the Nazgûl and the Downfall of Númenor.

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by The Squatter of Amon Rûdh

There's an article about this on Alcuin's site that's well worth a look. Origins of the Nazgûl and the Downfall of Númenor.

It is worth mentioning that Numenor began to fell long before the nazgul appeared, and signs of it were appearring hundreds of years before. A synopsys of problems would reveal that:
- Tar-Aldarion is already described as: proud, bent on his will; he was ever and in every course the more opposed as those about him urged it
- Tar Meneldur worried about his voyages
- Aldarion removes to a ship instead of Armenelos
- Tar-Meneldur looked coldly on the enterprises of his son, and cared not to hear the tale of his journeys, believing that he sowed the seeds of restlessness and the desire of other lands to hold
- Aldarion estranged from his father
- Meneldur “ever opposed his son”; he curbs the felling of trees for building ships
- Aldarion refuses to remain in Numenor and seek wife
- he goes in pursuit of gold and silver, despite his father remark that these only serve for pride; "I will not wed until I must; and further", if he is pressed to;
- at the first departure of Palarran he is refused the blessing of the king and the bough of oiolaire
- the second departure of Palarran is despite the king’s ban, with bough from Erendis; closing of the Venturers Guildhouse and of the shipyards of Romenna
- third voyage: ban on departure and on all women to bring the bough of return; he meets hostile winds, which batter his ships; Vinyalonde overthrown by great seas; his ship is struck by lightning and dismasted
- Nuneth speaks of the heat in Aldarion’s mind: “Aldarion was a man long-sighted, and he looked forward to days when the people would need more room and greater wealth; and whether he himself knew this clearly or no, he dreamed of the glory of Numenor and the power of its kings, and he sought for footholds whence they could step to wider dominion".
- Aldarion stayed in his house for a very brief time after the birth of his daughter, according to the Numenoreans' idea of the fitness of things.
and Erendis sought ever to mould her daughter Ancalime to her own mind, and to feed her upon her own bitterness against men; she “"has dismissed the Elven-birds (given by Elves at her wedding), and that was ill done. It bodes no good”
- the strife between Ancalime and Hallacar; Ancalilme ruling for more years than any after Elros
- Tar-Telperien's refusal to wed

Above these details, Tolkien makes the fall of Numenor as foremost representative of human failings. There are three stages of the "second fall", as he calls it: devotion to sea-voyages and exploring; Pride & Glory; Tar Calion. Concerning the second stage, he stated:

Originally Posted by Letter #131

In the second stage, the days of Pride and Glory and grudging of the Ban, they begin to seek wealth rather than bliss. The desire to escape death produced a cult of the dead, and they lavished wealth and an on tombs and memorials. They now made settlements on the west-shores, but these became rather strongholds and 'factories' of lords seeking wealth, and the Numenoreans became tax-gatherers carrying off over the sea evermore and more goods in their great ships. The Numenoreans began the forging of arms and engines.

Thus, the fall of Numenor is explained by human faillings. While a nazgul working in Numenor is possible, it would have made the above explanation of events by Tolkien obsolete and his point about huma nature void.

One would also wonder if Sauron would risk sending one or more nazgul, with their rings, alone amid the numenoreans, knowing their gifts, knowing there still are many faithfuls there. At least using the ring to become invisible turns one invisible permanently - yet such a nazgul could not work in Numenor at all [also, I, for one, consider that a nazgul is permanently invisible, I know of no instance when a nazgul has a visible body]. Last but not least, there is no mention of nazgul being in Numenor.

Originally Posted by Raynor

Mansun, as far as I am aware, you are only quoting from the Grey Havens website, not from Tolkien, as one could wonder at your post. All of that is a matter of pure speculation.

I think Erik Tracy has explained Tolkein's work in a balanced way, & in a good context. It may well be speculation to some extent, but very promising nonetheless. Balrogs afterall were the servants of Morgoth, not Sauron; they did not have a great part of their original strength taken away from them like Sauron did either. In the LOTR Sauron did not even try to acquire the Balrog for aid. In terms of commanding will, why would a Balrog submit to Sauron given the circumstances of power each has? A strong case could be made that the Balrog could even rival Sauron in combat, irrespective of whether it lost.

[Raynor]

I think Erik Tracy has explained Tolkein's work in a balanced way, & in a good context.

Since Tolkien's writings, even his speculations, take precedence over any other person's ideas, it is therefore a good practice to state the source of your quotes, as most, if not all, the members of this forum would interpret an unsigned quote as belonging to Tolkien. I know I did until I looked it up.

they did not have a great part of their original strength taken away from them like Sauron did either.

But Melkor and Sauron lost a great deal of their power in evil deeds; since the the balrogs too were heavily involved in evil deeds, their power must have diminished in time too, esspecially if they engaged in procreation, as Tolkien speculated in Myths Transformed.

In terms of commanidng will, why would a Balrog submit to Sauron given the circumstances of power each has?

We don't know under which circumstances a balrog submits, or when this particular balrog would submit. For all intents and purposes, Sauron inherited Melkor's place; for all we know, balrogs respected their master's will in all instances - I would expect them to recognise Sauron's authority too. I am not aware of any case in which a former servant of Melkor challenged Sauron's 'rightful' place.

Originally Posted by Raynor

We don't know under which circumstances a balrog submits, or when this particular balrog would submit. For all intents and purposes, Sauron inherited Melkor's place; for all we know, balrogs respected their master's will in all instances - I would expect them to recognise Sauron's authority too. I am not aware of any case in which a former servant of Melkor challenged Sauron's 'rightful' place.

We do know that a Balrog will attack the enemies of Melkor, therefore the enemies of Sauron too. But there is no evidence that a Balrog will serve anyone else but Melkor. There is every reason to believe that a Balrog probably would not get involved with Sauron as his master, or as a challenger to Sauron for the inheritance of Melkor's position of command, hence it's long absence in the dark realms of Moria, unconcerned with what Sauron & the Nazgul do in Middle-Earth. But by the same token, did Sauron need the Balrog's help? With his current strength in arms, a Balrog would not be needed, although it would be very handy to inspire dreadful fear into any opponent & Sauron does like to play mind games involving this.

"The Dark Lord has Nine, but we have One, mightier than they - the White Rider. He has passed through flame and abyss, and they shall fear him." Aragorn may well be implying that Gandalf slew a great enemy that Mordor itself feared.

[Raynor]

There is every reason to believe that a Balrog probably would not get involved with Sauron as his master

You may be right; I will leave this part at this, since speculation would lead us nowhere.

Aragorn may well be implying that Gandalf slew a great enemy that Mordor itself feared.

Nothing in that quote shows a hostile intent from the balrog, so there is no need for Mordor to fear him. If Sauron thought he was a threat somehow, he would have ordered the implosion of Moria on his head.

Originally Posted by Raynor

Nothing in that quote shows a hostile intent from the balrog, so there is no need for Mordor to fear him. If Sauron thought he was a threat somehow, he would have ordered the implosion of Moria on his head.

Sauron may have thought of the Balrog as the equivalent of Shelob in Cirith Ungol, as a guardian of a domain that belonged to Mordor but nevertheless a co-existance was inadvertantly made, since it prevented the enemy from seizing it.

[CSteefel]

Originally Posted by Mansun

Sauron may have thought of the Balrog as the equivalent of Shelob in Cirith Ungol, as a guardian of a domain that belonged to Mordor but nevertheless a co-existance was inadvertantly made, since it prevented the enemy from seizing it.

The difference that I can see is that Shelob is the offspring of Ungoliant, who initially was allied with Melkor, but then went her own way. So Shelob seems to have a similar status. The Balrog were lieutenants of Melkor in the a same sense that Sauron was, even if their role was more exclusively for battle. OK, Melkor is gone, but I don't see any reason why the Balrog would be rivals or enemies. But by the same token, I can't see the Balrogs serving Sauron directly, given their more or less equivalent status and their different roles...

[goldfinger]

This Balrog thing has nothing to do with this thread, so get back to the subject Who Were the Nazgul?!

[CSteefel]

Originally Posted by goldfinger

This Balrog thing has nothing to do with this thread, so get back to the subject Who Were the Nazgul?!

Classic thread drift!!

On the Nazgul, I have never quite understood how "Black Easterlings" could come to be called Numenorean, or vice versa. I guess it depends on the origin of ALL the people given the right to populate Numenor.

Or, was this a case of the Numenoreans taking over Umbar such that the Corsairs, or nearby peoples, became identified as being "Numenorean". The latter seems more likely to me.

The other question is when exactly 9 Nazgul were identified. One logical source of the Nazgul would be from the kingdom of Rhudaur, which was corrupted relatively early on in the 3rd Age. Unless there is some evidence that all 9 Nazgul were active before this time (i.e., before 1400 or so)...

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Not sure if I understood your post correctly, but if I did, then:

Originally Posted by CSteefel

On the Nazgul, I have never quite understood how "Black Easterlings" could come to be called Numenorean, or vice versa. I guess it depends on the origin of ALL the people given the right to populate Numenor.

It is explicitely said that only three of the Nazgul were "Númenorean lords". The others were "great kings of Men", which does not exclude the possibility that the other six Nazgul came from other nations of Middle-Earth. And what more, I think it would seem logical that Sauron recruited many of his servants from the Men who lived in Rhun or Harad or other lands which were under his dominion.

Originally Posted by CSteefel

The other question is when exactly 9 Nazgul were identified. One logical source of the Nazgul would be from the kingdom of Rhudaur, which was corrupted relatively early on in the 3rd Age. Unless there is some evidence that all 9 Nazgul were active before this time (i.e., before 1400 or so)...

Okay, I will recapitulate it everything only to make it clear. First activity of Nazgul at all was spotted around 2250 Second Age (they were already Ringwraith at that time). Most of Middle-Earth was under Sauron's dominion. The Númenoreans still lived on Númenor, but they also took part in what was happening in Middle-Earth. Thus, it is very probable that they also learned of the Nine. With the Fall, at the end of Second Age, the Faithful came to Middle-Earth and founded the realms of Arnor and Gondor. The knowledge of the Nazgul was then passed by the residents of Arnor and Gondor, and the wise Elves... but largely it was supposed that the Nine have vanished with Sauron. Rhudaur was only part was corrupted in the 2nd millenium of the Third Age, after the Witch-King rose in Angmar. But apart from the Wise, I think no one knew who the Witch-King really is. There have been also suspicions who was the resident of Dol Guldur (Sauron) and some thought it might be one of the Nine. But until Sauron rose again in Mordor and the Nine started their hunt for the Ring, I think no one knew exactly whether they were or were not in Middle-Earth (or if they were all or just some of them), or in Sauron's service anymore. Perhaps Saruman knew, since he studied the knowledge of the Enemy for a long time... but others surely not:

Originally Posted by FotR Chapter 2 - Shadow of the Past

Nine he gave to Mortal Men, proud and great, and so ensnared them. Long ago they fell under the dominion of the One, and they became Ringwraiths, shadows under his great
Shadow, his most terrible servants. Long ago. It is many a year since the Nine walked abroad. Yet who knows? As the Shadow grows once more, they too may walk again.

Originally Posted by goldfinger

This Balrog thing has nothing to do with this thread, so get back to the subject Who Were the Nazgul?!

This sounds like Gandalf when he tells off Pippin in the House of Elrond!

I believe there is some link between the Nazgul & their fear of fire in relation to Balrogs. Also, there is no harm with comparing the powers of the Nazgul with that of a Balrog, Melkor's greatest servants just behind Sauron.

[CSteefel]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Okay, I will recapitulate it everything only to make it clear. First activity of Nazgul at all was spotted around 2250 Second Age (they were already Ringwraith at that time).

What is the source for this--the Appendix in Return of the King, or is this mentioned also elsewhere??

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by CSteefel

What is the source for this--the Appendix in Return of the King, or is this mentioned also elsewhere??

It's the Appendix B - the Tale of Years, entry for the year 2251 SA

About this time the Nazgul or Ringwraiths, slaves of the Nine Rings, first appear.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Originally Posted by CSteefel

Classic logical source of the Nazgul would be from the kingdom of Rhudaur, which was corrupted relatively early on in the 3rd Age.

No, that can't work. The Nazgul had to have been corrupted while Sauron could still control their Rings- i.e. before he lost the One at the end of the Second Age.

[CSteefel]

Yes, that makes sense.