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02-18-2007, 01:09 PM | #201 | |||||
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Edit: a belief that would provide ways to reconnect - and I believe that it will have beneficial effects on those who will follow it (at least the contrary is true, those who fall further into evil have their lives shortened by various cute means). The belief "system" itself, and the effects I presume it has, are further "proofs". Of course, one has to be open to them.
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02-18-2007, 02:21 PM | #202 | ||||
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02-18-2007, 03:00 PM | #203 | ||||
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And one suspects it would not have been necessary to include the event at all in the final redaction of the Legendarium, in which Tolkien attempted to make Arda conform to 'current' scientific thinking. The Sun & stars were to pre-exist the earth, which would inevitably have had to be spherical from the start - hence, no need for a re-shaping of the world, so no requirement for Eru to wreak such devastation. |
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02-19-2007, 02:40 AM | #204 | |||||||||||
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02-19-2007, 12:55 PM | #205 |
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I think we'd have to question how 'helpless' the Valar were in the face of the Numenoreans. Such devastation as Tolkien posits could have been avoided by striking while the fleet was at sea, & I'm sure Ulmo could have done serious damage. Tolkien's statement in the letter strikes me as one of the infamous 'reflective glosses'. The problem was bringing about a change in the shape of the World & removing the Undying Lands from the world. This required a divine intervention of some kind. However, the form & nature of that intervention is the issue, & what it says about Eru's nature. I still say he doesn't come off well.
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02-19-2007, 01:14 PM | #206 | ||
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Manwe only called upon Eru after the numenoreans camped "in might" about Tuna, where from all the Eldar have fled...
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02-19-2007, 03:40 PM | #207 | |
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At the heart of the tale of Numenor lies a myth and a dream....Tolkien's dream of the great wave and the myth of Atlantis and the subsequent breaking of the world. If that dream element is removed and it becomes merely a tale of the sinking of the fleet by Ulmo, the whole point and reason for the story would, in my opinion, be diminished. In the Letters, Tolkien is clear that this dream and myth is what impelled him to spell out the sinking of Numenor on paper. In our desire to substitute a "just" ending to tidy up Eru's character, we would be guilty of removing the core element of faerie. As far as I am concerned Eru is Eru and can not be critiqued (or defended) on the basis of whether or not he lives up to our modern expectations of justice or the nature of a just deity. Eru is not identical with God in our "real" world, especially not in terms of his relations with humans. This is true whether we consider the definition of God that is proposed by "religious" groups or those who question the "value" of religion. I think Tolkien would have agreed with this distinction. He repeatedly stated that he was investigating a world where the deity was distant and hidden from view. As Shippey notes, Tolkien wanted to see how men would react when faced with such a stark canvas: what impetus to do good remained to them. This is a pre-revelation world. There may have been a plan hidden in the music that included the element of revelation. Finrod and Andreth's conversation does imply this, and I can not dismiss it lightly. Still, at this point in time--in the first through the fourth age--that plan of revelation, even if it existed, was not known to Men or, by implication, to the readers of the story. Since the Creator of Arda is so unknown and distant to men, yet also so powerful and all-knowing in the grander scheme of things, how could any man "justly" judge their god in terms of his actions? One thing is clear in Middle-earth: Eru is greater than any other being in or outside Arda and knows things no one else does. Essentially, he has no peers: men lack the wider understanding of the purpose of creation that would allow them to make a reasonable and just verdict on something as cosmic as the breaking of the earth. Yet, without peers, there can be no "just" judgment of Eru, whether we are talking about characters in the story or our own assessment. We may not like the playing field that Tolkien set up. But I see no indication that Tolkien had any doubts that Eru was the chief "good guy", despite the fact that he was so distant. On a personal level, we are obviously free to question anything in the story. In our own minds, we can do a Milton and create a very attractive, beguiling, creative force of evil. We can turn Morgoth into the good guy or Eru into a destructive, evil force. But I don't see that as compatible with the mindset of Tolkien. If the author's intentions matter, then we have to accept his basic terms. If not....if the reader has complete freedom--, then we can dismiss the basic assumptions Tolkien has woven into the tale. So I guess we get back to canon again....just how much freedom the reader has versus the author. I'm uncomfortable with judging or defending Eru in human terms because he is not human. I also feel uncomfortable interjecting such a "judgment" into the heart of a myth. At the heart of myth or faerie always lies a mystery, something that goes beyond mankind's ability to comprehend. Human judgments destroy part of that mystery. If Tolkien's tales are strictly history, then we can judge but if part of the tale is actual myth, then we are in a different league. For all these reasons, I don't see Eru as a minor, irritable character but rather the core mystery at the heart of Tolkien's legendarium, essentially distant and unable to be comprehended in strictly human terms.
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02-19-2007, 04:47 PM | #208 |
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Yet there is a problem with simply sticking a 'dream' into the heart of a story - & that is integration. The dream has to be integrated into the story in a convincing way. Any character from the story who is given a role in the dream section is going to have to act 'in character' or the dream will not be properly integrated & stick out like a sore thumb. So we're left with the question of how Eru will be percieved by the reader, & how this one act will impact on the reader's understanding of & feelings about Eru. Put Numenor on one side & what do we have of Eru in the Legendarium?
We have a Creator, who is basically distant, detatched & seemingly unconcerned for the most part, in the First & Second Ages, & who is (possibly) a behind the scenes mover of certain events at the end of the Third. And then there's Numenor. Eru intevenes into the world in a major way for the only time - & he virtually blows it apart! Hundreds of thousands of people die & a shockwave, both literal & metaphorical, ripples out across time & space & our perception of Eru is transformed. The effect is devastating, & it seems to me that it is Numenor which forces Tolkien into writing the Athrabeth & introducing the idea that Eru will enter the world in order to heal it (the echoes of Jung's Answer to Job are possibly worth considering seriously). It is Eru who has to be 'redeemed' for the attrocity he has committed, because he is ultimately responsible &, after Numenor, cannot sit back at a distance & watch - he has entered into his world & traumatised its inhabitants. He cannot leave it again. Once he acts within the world he is committed to play a personal role, & must enter into it in order to suffer along with it. Hence, I would argue that far from the Athrabeth being Tolkien's attempt to introduce an echo of 'Christianity' into his secondary world to make it conform more strongly to his faith, he is actually left with no option but to bring him in fully, & make him a full part of the creation. Tolkien's comment that 'already it is too close to a parody of Christianity' shows his discomfort with the idea of Eru incarnating into M-e, but equally it shows he was stuck - either no intervention at all, or a full participation. In other words, Eru can either be a 'mystery' - ie he can remain outside the world altogether, & not intervene to destroy Numenor - or he must lose his mystery & become an active participant - & Tolkien must choose. For Eru to retain his mystery he must not intervene. For him to intervene he must sacrifice his mystery. What he cannot do, is pop in, trash the place & then go away again & pretend nothing happened. Once he enters in he has to be explained - & so he must either explain himself, or explanations will be invented & foisted upon him. He will be 'judged' for his actions because such actions have to be explained. If you come home tonight & find a big hole where your house is you will want an explanation - in fact you will not be able to rest until you get one - & if no-one offers you one you will invent one based on whatever evidence you have. The 'basic assumptions' Tolkien has woven into the tale are neither here nor there. Tolkien knew (consciously or otherwise) that Eru's intervention into his creation & his destruction of Numenor changed Eru, & required an explanation & an account to be given by Eru himself. Numenor requires Eru's incarnation into Arda - however much that may seem like a 'parody' of Christianity to Tolkien himself - he (both Eru & Tolkien himself) has backed himself into a corner. Either no destruction of Numenor or full participation in the world he has created. |
02-19-2007, 07:09 PM | #209 | |||||
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02-20-2007, 12:59 AM | #210 | ||||
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02-20-2007, 02:48 AM | #211 | |
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We have to distinguish between the reason for having an 'Eru' - to make the world monotheistic & provide an account of Arda'a origin - & Eru as a character. If we take the original Silmarillion (which was effectively limited to the First Age) Eru is not a 'player' - he lights the blue touch paper & retires to watch the fireworks. Bringing him into the story as an active participant as in Numenor makes him a character in the story. Creating the Children ws an act that happened 'in Eternity', before time, & is part of the role he plays as creative force. His only real intervention into the world is in Numenor, & that's the problem, because argue & justify it as you will, the first time anyone apart from the Ainur encounters Eru they meet something so overwhelmingly terrifying as to make them feel neither love nor respect for him, but simple terror.
This is not a question of whether a single omnipotent deity is necessary to the plot, but the kind of deity that is. And Eru is not a transcendent mystery, nor is he a loving compassionate Father - he is a petulant, angry Artist, who will smash & kill what 'offends' him. I can't accept the point that the Valar lay down their authority because the Children are involved - that didn't stop them going in at the end of the First Age & stomping all over the Children who had gone over to Melkor. Ultimately the Valar provoked the Numenorean revolt - they 'rewarded' the faithful Edain with longer life but not with immortality. What message does that send out? More life is a good thing, postponing death is a good thing, not dying when you were 'intended' is a good thing. And what justification did the Numenoreans use when they defied the Valar - all of the above. Quote:
In other words, Tolkien could have decided that anything at all could have 'purified' Arda, but he chose the one thing which he considered 'fatal' to any invented myth - the introduction of Primary World religion (specifically the Christian religion) ... or did he? As I stated, I don't think that we are dealing here with the introduction of Christianity into the Legendarium, & I don't believe that the justification given in the Athrabeth is the whole story. The incarnation of Eru in the Athrabeth is necessary in order to redeem Eru, not to redeem the world. Arda was not created perfect & then subject to a Fall - it was (as Tolkien stated) created already Fallen - by Eru's choice (in that he chose to create the world with Melkor's corruption inherent in it & further to allow Melkor to enter into it & do pretty much as he wished - there is no 'ideal' state for Arda to return to - Arda cannot be returned to an 'Edenic' state, because in Arda there was never an Eden. Men cannot be returned to their 'original, unfalllen' state, because they were never actually unfallen & never dwelt in an unfallen world. |
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02-20-2007, 03:29 AM | #212 | ||||||||||||
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02-20-2007, 03:33 AM | #213 |
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Well don't they realise Eru has given us good reasons to feel this way...
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02-20-2007, 04:09 AM | #214 | |||||||
Illustrious Ulair
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One cannot simply state 'Eru is beyond human value judgements because he is so much greater than Man - so are the Valar, & no-one feels it is wrong to judge their actions, or critique their characters - Tolkien is the most ready of any of us to do that very thing. Melkor is also much greater than Man & his actions & motives could equally be characterised as beyond our understanding . The point is, once those beings enter into the world & become active participants (rather than vague 'influences') they become open to analysis & criticism. Quote:
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02-20-2007, 05:44 AM | #215 | ||||||||||||||
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02-20-2007, 06:37 AM | #216 | |||||||||
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One could ask why Tolkien chose to create a character who is beyond criticism. Quote:
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02-20-2007, 08:03 AM | #217 | |||||||||
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02-20-2007, 01:18 PM | #218 | ||||||
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02-20-2007, 01:49 PM | #219 | |
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It has always struck me that if Eru were to intervene in a major way or even give himself more of a character then he would be going against the inherent nature of the Judo-Christian God he may (or may not) be based on; i.e. infinite and mysterious and incomprehensable etcetera. Also, would it really be as interesting a story if he did? Gandalf is sometimes criticised as the get-out clause, but his saving grace is that he is not 'all-powerful' nor does he chose to use all the power he has and so failure is still possible for him. Yet, if Eru Illuvatar were to intervene in a big way, then it would soon finish the story and we'd all go home for tea. The subtle workings, odd coincidences and interesting occurrences make for interesting stories as apposed to evil being simply rubbed out in a blink. At least, that's how I have always looked at it and I reserve the right to be proven wrong...
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02-20-2007, 01:58 PM | #220 |
Pittodrie Poltergeist
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Isn't that the crux of the matter though he did intervene in a BIG way what with him destroying a whole civilisation and whatnot
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02-20-2007, 01:58 PM | #221 | |||||||||
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02-20-2007, 02:18 PM | #222 | |
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The only explanation I can think of is that Numinor had to be destroyed for the sake of the story and the Valar either did not have the power to do so or did not want to wipe people out without Eru's express permission... although, then there are the Orcs that they quite willingly killed. Then again, Numenor was different and... this is confusing!
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I think that if you want facts, then The Downer Newspaper is probably the place to go. I know! I read it once. THE PHANTOM AND ALIEN: The Legend of the Golden Bus Ticket... |
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02-20-2007, 02:37 PM | #223 | |
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02-20-2007, 02:47 PM | #224 | ||
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02-20-2007, 04:55 PM | #225 | ||||||||||
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02-20-2007, 05:33 PM | #226 |
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To interrupt your essays, if Melkor was so tough, why did Tulkas take him down? Was Tulkas stronger but just not around?
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02-20-2007, 06:06 PM | #227 | |||||||||
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I think you lose sight of spiritual meaning the myth has for Tolkien, that of returning us to an un-fallen state, of a more special communion. I hardly see how this can be achieved by rationalising God. Of course, that may not suit some critics. They way Eru is presented is not a literary flaw, but a religious necessity; I would venture so far as to say even a philosophical one - who can put transcendence into words? Quote:
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02-21-2007, 11:53 AM | #228 | ||
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That puts the reader in a strange position. He can accept that ambiguity or insert some other image of "god" or "ungod" into the story to try and achieve greater clarity. I think both Hookbill and Littlemanpoet have hit the nail on the head. In Imp's words that bear repeating..... Quote:
Several questions intrigue me that no one has discussed. Tolkien was no fool. Was he aware of the potential outcry from some readers about the "unjust" nature of Eru's act given what happened in Numenor? Was that reaction something that he could not conceive of, since his own personal view of deity was Catholic at the core? Or did he simply see it as not being a relevant discussion or response in the context of constructed myth? And secondly, davem, if we accept (only for purposes of argument )your suggestion that Eru is a minor, irritable, and seemingly flawed character, how big a "defect" is this? If such a major flaw exists at the heart of Middle-earth, what does it do to the Legendarium overall? Even if men of Middle earth and the reader know virtually nothing about Eru's nature and see little active involvement on his part, the reader does know he is the Creator of the world and holds mysteries that no one else comprehends. Can the Creator of the world who stands at the beginning of the whole legendarium be a "minor and irritable" character, or is this a fatal flaw? To put it bluntly, did Tolkien blow it by giving us tiny glimpses of deity or reflected deity in one part of the narrative and pulling back in others so that we are ultimately left with unaswered questions. If the author truly wanted to keep "religion" out of his created world, as he certainly stated at one point, then why start the whole thing off with Eru? Or did his Catholic beliefs compel him to do this and, yet at the same time, require him to make Eru no more than a "minor, irritable" character, because of the difficulties of writing in a pre-revelation world? Anyone out there....I am truly curious about this.
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02-21-2007, 01:07 PM | #229 | |||
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LotR is not a religious work. It is, first & foremost, as Tolkien stated in the Foreword to LotR, an 'entertainment'. The point is that Eru is both transcendent (in which aspect he cannot be judged) & immanent (in which aspect he can). Quote:
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Eru may, or may not, reflect Tolkien's own thoughts on the nature of God, but it is a step too far for the reader to consider them as equivalent in any way. If God is a transcendent mystery then Tolkien would have inevitably had a limited perception of him, & one can question the extent to which he was correct, but that is a very different thing to considering them 'the same thing'. |
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02-21-2007, 01:26 PM | #230 | |
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02-21-2007, 01:46 PM | #231 | |||
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02-21-2007, 03:11 PM | #232 | ||||||||||
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02-21-2007, 04:06 PM | #233 | ||||||
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Look, we're arguing as though Eru destroyed Numenor because of something done against his will, but that's wrong. Eru detsroyed Numenor because the Valar asked him to, not even that, that Valar pleaded with Eru just to do something.
The Valar had overstepped the mark by giving Men this island which was so temptingly close to the Undying Lands, by idolising Men too much. Then when Men came to act as they inevitably would, wanting to explore the seas and wanting to see what it was about the Undying Lands which gave the inhabitants unending life (to their minds, it was the place which did this, not the inherent nature of the peoples there - the Men of Numenor lacked understanding of immortals just as much as the Immortals lacked any comprehension of mortality) the Valar were powerless to act. They pleaded with Eru, the one who made these creatures, and Eru smote. He did not do it as those remaining on Numenor were 'evil' themselves - indeed Miriel is perfectly innocent. And I seriously doubt that Tolkien, devoted family man would ever write about children being evil or wicked. The event is not 'just' nor is it 'justified' apart from it is something that the god of this world does. A god who as I have pointed out already is like the God of the Book of Job, a law only unto himself. Rather than punishing the people left on Numenor, he is in fact punishing the Valar who were foolish/proud enough to set up Numenor in the first place. Nor was the event meant to echo the Noah myth in any way, it was meant to be Atlantean. The only part which echoes the Noah story is the escape of Elendil and the Faithful, which Tolkien calls "a kind of Noachian situation". The rest of it, this whole, huge, overbearing and memorable story, is drawn from something Atlantean. It comes from Tolkien's own mind, from his own recurring nightmares, something which he squarely points down to being common amongst those who live near the Sea and those in Western Europe. I know exactly what he means - I grew up with exactly the same kinds of tales of drowned lands and fears of the lands being drowned once more. So while we're all scratching away at some kind of Biblical analogy, meaning or comprehension to all of this we are looking in precisely the wrong place. This really has very little to do with what Eru and the valar are really like, little to do with whether the babies drowned at Numenor were evil, and a whole lot to do with Atlantis. Some quotes: Quote:
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02-21-2007, 04:26 PM | #234 | ||||||||
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02-22-2007, 12:19 AM | #235 | |
Alive without breath
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Location: On A Cold Wind To Valhalla
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I think that if you want facts, then The Downer Newspaper is probably the place to go. I know! I read it once. THE PHANTOM AND ALIEN: The Legend of the Golden Bus Ticket... |
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02-22-2007, 12:42 AM | #236 | |||||||||||||||
Eagle of the Star
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"May the wicked become good. May the good obtain peace. May the peaceful be freed from bonds. May the freed set others free." |
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02-22-2007, 03:38 AM | #237 | |||||||
Illustrious Ulair
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties
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Well, I just spent about an hour anwsering your point & lost the post & I can't face doing it all over, so I'll be brief here.
[QUOTE=Raynor] And Sauron didn't just tell lies, he used his demonic power to corrupt the very beings. This is to imply that Sauron was wholly responsible for the Numenoreans corruption. Which makes Eru's action even more unacceptable. The Numenoreans come across as victims in this scenario. One cannot assume all the Numenoreans were evil - many quite possibly went along out of fear for themselves & their families. One cannot read the account of the Akallabeth in the same way post Hiroshima. The destruction of Numenor would have traumatised generations, & created a fear of Eru - which Eru must have realised. Quote:
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02-22-2007, 05:54 AM | #238 | ||||||||
Eagle of the Star
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Given the adulation of their ancestry, their knowledge of who Sauron truly was would have been second only to the elves, yet they still suffered him in their country, suffered him near their king, suffered his evil teachings - which, to those who were still good, the faithful, they were abominations. Their observance of true faith was a shield to Sauron. The others, welcomed him. Not to resist Sauron and his doings (through observance of rules - let us remember that in the Atrabeth Eru said : "Call on me and I shall hear, for I am watching over you") means assenting. There can't be a middle way for a moral person. Numenoreans weren't victims, they were accessories, if not perpetrators of Sauron's corruption in Numenor. One cannot expect salvation from God if one welcomes (while one still can welcome) evil. Quote:
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"May the wicked become good. May the good obtain peace. May the peaceful be freed from bonds. May the freed set others free." |
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02-22-2007, 07:57 AM | #239 | |
Pittodrie Poltergeist
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As Beren looked into her eyes within the shadows of her hair, The trembling starlight of the skies he saw there mirrored shimmering. |
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02-22-2007, 08:02 AM | #240 | ||
Eagle of the Star
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"May the wicked become good. May the good obtain peace. May the peaceful be freed from bonds. May the freed set others free." Last edited by Raynor; 02-22-2007 at 08:19 AM. |
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