The Fellowship of the Fourth Age (Part 1): A New Beginning Discussion Thread

[piosenniel]

Nogrod

I'm referring to this post on the discussion thread - #835.

Let's just forget that scenario set up for Shae and Khamir - I will take care of the matter in another way.

~*~ Pio

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Durelin

I'm by no means an expert on anything battle related, hehe...

Happily, no one of us is in RL...

What i meant is that there is a X number of meetings between the slavers and the Ex-slaves / the FS - and if every one of them ends up with the Ex-slaves / FS winning - the all-out result looks astonishingly impossible... I have tried to be as balanced as possible in my posts and I think my results are about equal. I should possibly have made posts that get more of us killed and leaving more of the real slavers alive, I admit. But I think some of you others should think about this same thing too...

So we need more descriptions of those meetings where "our" people get crashed and lose as otherwise we will soon be needing to adjust the initial number of the slavers and raise their numbers to double our ex-slaves... I mean if every ex-slave manages to bring down two enemies, there needs to be a double numbers of the enemy to confront us. Although the preliminary idea was - if I remember it correctly - that there should be half the number of ex-slaves as the slavers attacking...

Soon we have killed as many slavers as there are ex-slaves around, even though there are women, children and the elderly composing a reasonable part of "us" while the slavers are all tough soldiers on horseback...

It just feels unbelievable, a bit too fantastic, sorry.

It's just my view of the things, though...

[Durelin]

Pio - If you're going to adjust those plans, it seems I should be editing my latest post pretty majorly...Shae and Khamir took down two unwounded slavers in that one, hehe...

Personally, I'd love to have Shae and Khamir kick some more butt.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by piosenniel

I'm referring to this post on the discussion thread - #835.

Let's just forget that scenario set up for Shae and Khamir - I will take care of the matter in another way.

Yeah. That was what I was referring to in the first place too... And indeed I don't think that it is reasonable to talk over that one as I think there are questions pertaining to the larger picture of affairs we should discuss now. Sorry if I used you as an example of a larger point unfairly. Sorry indeed.

F.ex. if the slavers making a breach would actually be able to create a real havoc - catching or killing something like 4-8 people (if there are 4 possibly free slavers left), it would look a bit more realistic. I think both Khala and Cuáran (as characters I have brought into this game) could be sacrificed - or those yet nameless ones.

But somehow I just think the real soldiers (the slavers) should not lose all the time...

[Firefoot]

I think that part of the problem is that each of us is writing for our own character - and most of us certainly aren't ready for our characters to bite the dust yet! We don't have many people writing characters whom they want killed, so that basically means that the characters we are specifically writing about wind up coming out on top in their fights. That's my simple answer.

As long as the numbers work out in the end, it should be fine. Just because it's working out well for the primary characters doesn't mean it necessarily is for everyone.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Firefoot

As long as the numbers work out in the end, it should be fine. Just because it's working out well for the primary characters doesn't mean it necessarily is for everyone.

Your first point (we have our own characters we don't wish to kill) was good, but on this second one I would like to comment. Yes. We should be more ready to
a) kill our "secondary characters"
b) those we have named in passing
c) those we have not named in the first place

Would that sound unfair or bad to you?

For example: I kind of have learned to like Beloan and could see him making a difference in the game after the fight with the slavers ends but we should be ready to kill him off too. Or anyone named... not to talk of writing posts where before unnamed people get killed...

We should also see that it seems that most of the people this far taking part in the fight have been men, so there should be a lots of women (and some children & the elderly) who are not yet accounted for - so a good part of those not named yet are women - hopefully all of them will not die, but a few should...

[Brinniel]

I've updated the death count list I made earlier in case anyone cared. I know it at least helps me figure things out...

Originally Posted by Durelin

Personally, I'd love to have Shae and Khamir kick some more butt.

Well, I like that idea

Shae may be exhausted and injured, but she's certainly determined. I'm sure she'll find another adreneline rush as she attacks her next opponent, and you know how powerful that stuff is.

Nogrod- I meant to write a post with Eirnar and Aedhild earlier and never got around to it. I could still write that post and include plenty of devastation from the ex-slave side in general. I promise the post won't be full of heroics...

[Durelin]

Originally Posted by Brinniel

I meant to write a post with Eirnar and Aedhild earlier and never got around to it. I could still write that post and include plenty of devastation from the ex-slave side in general. I promise the post won't be full of heroics...

If you don't have the time or would prefer it, I can include the deaths of Eirnar and Aedhild in my post.

Sorry; that will be up as soon as possible. I needed a day off from lots of thinking today, though, so I apologize for not working on it yet.

[Child of the 7th Age]

Nogrod,

Killing too many slavers? It's good to remember not to go crazy but my feeling is that things may not be as clear cut or one sided as you suggest. Some of our characters have had success, but others have encountered their share of problems and hardships. In fact at this point, I have grave doubts about killing too many more of the good guys. Let's consider the situation and the numbers. We started off with 77 good guys max (70 slaves, 7 fellowship) and about 24 to 26 slavers.

The initial strategy of the slaves was foiled because Imak split his troops....so right from the first, things were not a piece of cake. The storyline does include scenes where the good guys fought but were unable to bring down their prey. Lindir along with Gretl and Wulf, two members of the original band, tracked several slavers to the southern portions of the camp yet failed to harm the men. Moreover, Lindir and several other members of the fellowship are experienced fighters. Although the elf has been soldiering for several thousand years, stretching back to his days in Beleriand, he has made no kills in this battle. Aiwendil has chased one man out of camp but has also killed no one. And Tevildo's Dorran, an experienced Rider, brought down just one and still bears a head wound from the previous day's skirmish that prevents him from fighting further. (He has retired from the fighting to haul bodies in for treatment. ) We have one major character lying wounded, with no real idea how serious his condition may be. Finally, the charging boar witnessed the deaths of two women and has heard the shrieks of a number of others who are presently being attacked within the grove.

I pulled up the casualty list graciously supplied by Brinniel and updated it with some additional information on those injured, kidnapped, etc.

Slavers:

2- killed by Beloan
1- killed by Kwell
2- killed by Khamir
1- killed by Adnan
1- killed by Dorran
2- killed by Shae (unless you want to count the one from the other night?)
2- killed by Rog
1- killed by Joshwan
1- killed by Reagonn
1- killed by Aiwendil
1- killed by Johari
1- killed by Carl and Kwell
1- killed by Carl and Dirand
1- killed by Kwell and two men
2- killed by Nasim, Gamal, and Zaki
2- killed by Khamir, Nasim, and Gamal

Total: 22

Of course, I'm sure a few more will die as we conclude the battle...

*****I would add two names to this:

Run off/Unknown
Imak
Man chased by boar towards the Orc camp

That makes 24 slavers in trouble or dead.


The there are the dead Ex-Slaves:

1. Tareef
2. Joshwan
3. Erlech
4. Zaki
5. Ayce
6. Darren
7. Korden
8. Syth
9. Reagonn
10. Rowenna
11-12. pregnant woman


Again, you need to add these names among the injured, some more and some less seriously so :

Vror
Dorran
Hadith
Adnan
Rôg

Plus, there were those who had to be rescued:
Tom
Azhar [/i]

That means we've described serious problems for 14 members of our band. There is also the possibility that one or more of those wounded may die or suffer long term impairment. And it is likely that other fighters have fallen quietlly, a fact that is still unknown to us. Plus, when the dust from battle settles, many of those still on their feet will bear additional minor wounds. (Aiwendil certainly will.)


From Aiwendil's description of the activity in the grove and also from Undomie's save, I would estimate we're talking about another 5-6 folk killed or seriously injured among the women and children. That means out of 77 good guys, we've had casualties and mishaps for 24 members of our band. That is about one-third of our total! The temporary loss of one-third of any community is a huge loss, especially when 18 of those have perished (about one-fourth of our total ranks). I honestly don't think we want to hack down too many others. We need enough people to start a community in the north. The heart of this RPG isn't the battle (as fun as that is) but the establishment of a new Mordor and the relations between humans and orcs. We can't have a new Mordor without people to start it.

My only concern here is the number of slavers that I postulated from the beginning. We probably should have gone with a figure around 30 rather than 24-26. But I refuse to be hog tied strictly by an artificial number, especially one that can be so easily changed. What I would like to do, if no one objects, is to go back through the entire thread and change the slavers estimate upward to 30. This could be done very easily with the search function. Would anyone have problems with that? If I adjust that number upward, it would also let those who want to get in their final hacks do so with ease..... (without going crazy, of course). And if another slaver or two takes to the hills or to the orc camp, that would be fine with me.

So we need more descriptions of those meetings where "our" people get crashed and lose as otherwise we will soon be needing to adjust the initial number of the slavers and raise their numbers to double our ex-slaves...

One final note regarding this.... One of the constant criticisms of Tolkien is that he lets his major characters off too easily....only one member of the fellowship is actually killed depite the enormous danger. We know there are deaths and injuries going on among the various "good" soldiers during the battles but these are generally not described and, with a few exceptions, happen to characters we don't know well. My gut feeling is that many RPG's done in the spirit of Tolkien tend towards this same model. For the most part I am comfortable with that. And, as I said before, I wouldn't have a problem nudging up the number of slavers by just a bit. Moreover, just as in Tolkien, there is more going on here than first meets the eye. We won't know our full damages until the battle ends and things settle down.

So please don't whack too many more of the good guys down.

[Regin Hardhammer]

I filled in my save with a short post. Firefoot - let me know if my use of Grask is alright. Otherwise, I'll edit it.

- Regin

[Undómë]

There are 6 women dead, 2 girls, and possibly 3 or 4 small children.

EDIT: WELL, THAT'S WHAT I HAD AT FIRST - BUT NOW THESE NUMBERS ARE NO LONGER TRUE. ONLY 3 WOMEN (MY CHARACTERS) ARE DEAD.

The women are in disarray, running helter-skelter from the grove in different directions.

There are 3 slavers after them (the two original ones Child of the 7th Age mentioned in her post for Aiwendil + another who joined them).

The slavers are each now riding separately from each other after groups of women and children, intending on rounding them up like so much cattle.

The thoroughly clubbed Rôg has been dragged by the women to some shrubs along the edge of the grove's clearing and stuffed out of the way beneath some low-growing bushes.

[Brinniel]

Aiwendil has chased one man out of camp but has also killed no one.

Whoops...I wasn't sure about that but I guess I assumed that the slaver did die. I need to start reading more carefully. You can fix that if you like, Child.

Question: Wasn't Rowenna the midwife? I thought so, but now I'm not sure...

Also, you can add Shae to the list of injured. While it's nothing terribly serious, she'll definitely need some attention from Athwen once the battle is over.

What I would like to do, if no one objects, is to go back through the entire thread and change the slavers estimate upward to 30.

I like that idea. I think a larger amount of slavers would be better. Besides, I originally thought the number was at 27 or 28.

I'm going to put up a save for Aedhild and Eirnar. Right now, I'm planning to kill off Aedhild for sure....I'll leave the fate of Eirnar up to someone else. I'm not sure when I'll fill in this save, but I'll try to as soon as possible.

[Child of the 7th Age]

Brinniel,

No, Aiwendil did not kill his slaver. The last time I saw him, he was chasing him eastward across the plain.......

But yes, Rowenna was the midwife, so I've revised that initial figure down by one.
___________________

Original figures....

70 slavers
7 fellowship members

Current figures.....

Fellowship....Three wounded of which two are unconscious.

Ex-slaves: 22-23 dead; 2 injured plus 2 earlier kidnap victims (26-27 in all)

Altogether, that gives us roughly 40% of the fellowship wounded and one-third of the ex-slaves dead; plus another 6% wounded and/or traumatized by kidnapping.

[Nogrod]

... That makes 24 slavers in trouble or dead.......

vs. 12 goodies. So for every ex-slave killed two deaths of slavers...

We need enough people to start a community in the north. The heart of this RPG isn't the battle (as fun as that is) but the establishment of a new Mordor and the relations between humans and orcs. We can't have a new Mordor without people to start it.

Sure. As I said, if the storyline requires, we'll do anything.

What I would like to do, if no one objects, is to go back through the entire thread and change the slavers estimate upward to 30.

A good idea. Otherwise we would have already run out of the slavers...

And just not to leave any room for misunderstandings: I'm quite happy with this game and enjoy writing it as it is. It was just that I started to feel a bit uncomfortable with the success of our good guys. But that's no major problem anyhow.

[Tevildo]

There is no way Dorran could witness that carnage of women and children in the grove and not try to do something depite the likely results, since he already has a head injury......months ago in real time, but just a day ago in game time.

Please reserve one of those three baddies for me. I will fill the post tomorrow.

[Undómë]

EDIT:

Nothing to see here really . . . pass on by.

I had originally had counted up 32 slaves as the total being dead or injured.

But that is now revised downward to my own 3 characters being dead in addition to those ex-slaves others killed off in their posts.

[Child of the 7th Age]

Undómë,

That's correct. Only the 32 in trouble or dead should actually be 33, since Brinniel has said she will be killing off Aedhild.

[Brinniel]

Actually, if you edit from my error, there should only be 21 slavers killed...

Reading your save, I hope you do not plan to kill off Dorran, Tevildo. I would be very saddened if such an event were to occur.

Durelin- I don't know how far you've gotten on writing your save, but I was think maybe it'd be better if Shae and Khamir only take down one slaver. After all, Shae is still injured and though she can fight, in all likelihood she probably would no longer be able to kill a slaver without a lot of help from Khamir (or someone else). As much as you'd all like her to be, Shae is not a warrior princess.

[Folwren]

Question! Question!

The women and children have been slaughtered and scattered (see Undome's latest post). They're running for their lives.

Athwen was behind them, farther back in the grove. She has wounded people with her and besides that, she's probably not inclined to run away anyway. But what of her? Will the three slavers leave her be while they run up the others? (There are only three left, right?)

Just wondering... I'm not going to put up a save or write a post until Tevildo has filled his.

-- Folwren

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Undómë

Actually, it's not 12 "goodies" dead to 24 slavers in trouble or dead. Since my last post, the tab looks like this:
.........................
13. Brenna (in the grove)
14. ex-slave female (in the grove)
15. ex-slave female (in the grove)
16. ex-slave female (in the grove)
17. ex-slave female (in the grove)
18. ex-slave female (in the grove)
19. Nia (16y/o) (in the grove)
20. Gwenith (11y/o) (in the grove)
21. young child (in the grove)
22. young child (in the grove)
23. young child (in the grove)
24. young child (in the grove)
25. young child (in the grove)

How brutal of you Undómë!

But even as we're talking about innocents taking it rough, I must confess the numbers start to look more believable... although they are just numbers that look better now...

Just forget my whining and get on with it everyone. I'm feeling a bit embarrassed because of all the hassle I have seemed to arouse here...

I'll try to wake Hadith up to fumble again if I have time to do it before everything's over...

[Tevildo]

I am talking with Folwren about what to do. This isn't a case of me deciding to kill my characters. The way this story has gone in the last day in trems of "realistic" situations and body count, I really have little choice.

Azhar is trapped at the entrance to the grove with the rest of the women. She was thrown to the side and wounded. Her chances of getting out alive are very slim. Even if she does get out, she is going to have seen all that death and dying and she'd have to deal with that. She'll know she could have done something if she had only been able to put on the bear form. Seeing Rôg clubbed will also be a shock, since she's one of the few who knows that he could have saved himself by shifting forms.

I think I have even less choice with Dorran. He would not stand by and let this happen. He will try to fight and die because he was wounded and unconscious the day before. To do anything else would be totally "unrealistic".

I am going to use my save to do a set up post for Azhar and wait till after I talk with Folwren to finish everything up.

Oh, yeah....by the way, the figures everyone is using are wrong. It was a long time ago --four months--but there was a whole lot of discussion about numbers and how important it was that there be a balance between orcs and slaves. Child and Durelin said that there could be a certain number of slaves killed, but that the orcs (who are physically larger and much more experienced) had to be a much smaller group or there would not be a realistic chance of cooperation between the two bands. They both had to feel threatened with no one having the upper hand. The founders were very specific about the numbers: 65 ex-slaves, 25 slavers (now revised up to 30), and 15 orcs plus the 7 fellowship members. If anyone wants, I can give you the links.

Including Aedhild and Azhar who will likely die, we have 27 dead ex-slaves. That's a 42% mortailty rate -- I feel like I've slipped back to the slaughters of Beleriand. That leaves 38 alive, but two are badly wounded and a bunch presumably have minor wounds. It's possible those numbers about who is alive will drop because realistically you can't know your exact body count in the middle of a battle. There will be just three members of the fellowship who can fight. Everyone else is injured, dead or a woman.

At this point, I would bet on the orcs......

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Tevildo

There will be just three members of the fellowship who can fight. Everyone else is injured, dead or a woman.

Teehee!

At this point, I would bet on the orcs......

...who are totally drunk by now. I think it will be more than even from the point of view of the ex-slaves & the Fellowship.

But otherwise you speak well Tevildo. The headcounts from the beginning do not seem to hold anymore. So we will just have to accustom ourselves to the new situation and try to bear with it. I believe we can do it.

PS. I t would be too sad to see Dorran go at this point, so please save him in a way or another...

[Tevildo]

First, the initial part of my save is filled.

But otherwise you speak well Tevildo. The headcounts from the beginning do not seem to hold anymore. So we will just have to accustom ourselves to the new situation and try to bear with it. I believe we can do it.

I certainly know and understand what the headcount and slaughter in the grove mean for my own characters. What I can not say is what they mean for the plotline that Durelin and Child laid down at the beginning of this game.

[Undómë]

Not all of the Orcs are drunk. Mostly the males, I would think.

And the females, at least mine, will be thinking of what's best for themselves in any encounter with the Fellowship/ex-slaves over any concerns for the Orc males.

[Regin Hardhammer]

I agree with Tevildo.

Ishkur has just had a coherent conversation with Grask. The ex-slaves weren't supposed to arrive till the middle of the night and Orcs can hold a lot of alcohol(kind of like frat parties). I am putting up a save where the injured slaver stumbles into camp and Ishkur questions him and finds out the basics of what's going on at the battle. I won't do more than that till I'm sure we're all on the same page. But one alternative would be for Ishkur to recommend a pull-out from the slavers' camp and a return to our own base. Then, by the morning we'd be reasonably clear headed and ready to attack whether at one location or the other.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Undómë

Not all of the Orcs are drunk. Mostly the males, I would think.

And the females, at least mine, will be thinking of what's best for themselves in any encounter with the Fellowship/ex-slaves over any concerns for the Orc males.

You're right about the drunkenness, I suppose. But I'm not sure whether the females can "foresee" that there will be any encounter, not the least an encounter with something like the fellowship and the ex-slaves (of which the latter they would know nothing anyhow)...

But maybe we'll see in due time?

[Regin Hardhammer]

Nogrod,

We've cross posted. I'm not sure if you saw what I said.

Ishkur isn't totally drunk yet and he would at least have the wits to recommend a pull-out from the camp and an attack in the morning.

[Nogrod]

Sorry guys. It seems I'm now the one who is losing touch with this game...

So one of the slavers is already back in the camp (well, one of them)? This fast? How on earth? Sorry. I may have read the last tidings badly or something.

If it is so, I'll draw back my words and apologise. It's late now here but I will check these tomorrow.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Regin Hardhammer

Nogrod,

We've cross posted. I'm not sure if you saw what I said.

Yes we did, indeed. I was not intending to say all the males would be drunk at this moment (I think Gwerr also has something like a reason left 'till now), but as I thought it would take time for anything to happen I easily foresaw these orcs getting more drunk...

But as I said, let's see what happens and when.

[Undómë]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

But I'm not sure whether the females can "foresee" that there will be any encounter, not the least an encounter with something like the fellowship and the ex-slaves (of which the latter they would know nothing anyhow)...

This has nothing to do with 'foreseeing' - I'm only saying my two characters will act in their own best interest as calculated by themselves.

[Regin Hardhammer]

The slaver who is back in camp is the one chased out by Aiwendil. There are a lot of horses out there on the plain running loose and it wouldn't be that hard to nab one to ride.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Regin Hardhammer

The slaver who is back in camp is the one chased out by Aiwendil.

So how near / far the slaver camp actually is? My recollection of the things past gives quite a distance (f.ex. it could not be seen from the top of the highest hill around = at least 20 miles or something). So what time it actually is in the slaver camp now? And what is it in the battle?

Somehow I can't make these two lines converge even if I try. But as I said, I may be wrong and just perceiving the whole situation wrongly...

And sorry, Undómë, I didn't mean to annoy you. I was only wondering how the females could get ready for the ex-slaves like you wrote it earlier. It's of course another thing to be on one's toes all the time for whatever mishap. Although I think there would be a temptation to just fall into the looting and having a good time as all the others are doing it... but maybe the females are more cool than the males with the orcs as well as with us humans?

[Durelin]

I'd like to ask everyone to remove themselves from all the numbers, and rethink this story, this game in the big picture.

It is called "The Fellowship of the Fourth Age: A New Beginning."

The goal is a new beginning for the slaves, a new settlement that will last, for which you need quite a number of people. Whether or not this settlement is successful is not a question we're asking in this game, it's not an issue being explored. It is already determined that this is successful.

The capture of Azhar and Kwell, their rescue, and the attack of the slavers are all (ultimately) part of a very interesting subplot, which was so interesting that it has taken up quite a lot of time. It's only been covered in such great detail because of the amount of interest that was shown through people's posting. We're on to the ninth page and we still haven't united the Orcs with the slaves and Fellowship - when this occurs was when the game was really supposed to start.

If over half of the slaves are dead before the game was really supposed to start...well, we have to question what we're doing.

"Realism" doesn't mean as many dead people as we can manage. And is it even realistic for slavers, who make money off of capturing slaves (and this is their only way of making money, such as enough money to have food), to simply slaughter the unarmed ones? Sure, Imak has a personal vendetta, but what about the others? I doubt they're the loyal type; I doubt they care what happens as long as they get food, drink, money, and fun...

We must remember that we are applying our concepts (which may or may not be true) of the "real world" and what "realistically" occurs in the real world to a fantasy world, and more importantly, to a game. Personally, I don't want to spend an hour or so looking through a game to find all the numbers of the dead, wounded, etc...and I don't think anyone should expect anyone else to do it. How we know these statistics can be considered unrealistic, as well. How does one character know how many people have been killed around them? Running in to dead bodies or watching people die is a nasty business, and though it's going to happen, it's not going to happen to everyone.

So why should everyone be describing and tallying death on a large scale, considering roleplaying means we play a character, and write from that character's point of view - on the small scale. Here on the Barrow-Downs, sometimes roleplaying is taken in a broader view, I think: sometimes people narrate more than roleplay. There's nothing necessarily wrong with that, but I think it's really detrimental to the game in certain situations.

We just have to remember we're roleplaying. Playing a role. Playing, having fun, as a part of a game.

Everyone's writing and participation has been absolutely amazing, and I want to thank you all for all your work and interest. And I also want to continue in the way we have been: having fun and writing a great story. So I ask that everyone will sit back and have fun with this, while realizing that this is a game, and an opportunity to have fun together thanks to Child's conception of the idea.

-Durelin

[Nogrod]

I'd like to ask everyone to remove themselves from all the numbers, and rethink this story, this game in the big picture.

I do agree, indeed, even if I was the one laying this molehill that turned out to be a mountain. That was not my intention anyway.

We're on to the ninth page and we still haven't united the Orcs with the slaves and Fellowship - when this occurs was when the game was really supposed to start.
...........
We just have to remember we're roleplaying. Playing a role. Playing, having fun, as a part of a game.

Isn't the fact that we're on the page 9 just a confirmation of the latter, that we all have been enjoying this game and playing it to the fullest?

On the "realism-issue" I would think that Durelin is right about the slavers and by that I mean that they would not try to hunt down everyone to kill them but to capture as many they can and then retreat if they saw the situation too hard on them. Now most of them are dead anyhow and that can't (shouldn't) be changed... So as I said, let's just continue.

And for my part I will end this discussion about any numbers or distances or whatever here as I see it's growing too big in relation to its worth. I'll be happy with everything suggested.

As Durelin said: let's just have fun and write for our characters. And sorry about all this trouble.

[Child of the 7th Age]

Great post Durelin. I agree with much of what you've said. Now that we've had a chance to echange thoughts by pm, I'm going to put forward some of the ways we thought of that might be helpful to resolve this.

First, a personal note....and bear with me on the length of this post. As Durelin hints, this plot idea was "my baby"--a long held dream I've wanted to see spun out in an RPG or a fanfiction. The whole reason I was so careful about the numbers in the groups is that I wanted to make the plot believable. (I guess believable is the word I prefer rather than "realistic", since the latter is so often used to criticise Tolkien and negate the meaning of fantasy.) Both the Orcs and the ex-slaves have to feel that they can not make it to the north unless they rely on help from each other. Moreover, the two groups must be convinced that the physical power of each is roughly equivalent to the other, so that one band can not destroy the other. Since Orcs are better fighters both by nature and experience (though less capable of original thought), the band of ex-slaves must be considerably larger than that of the orcs.

Nogrod is certainly right to remind us that the victory of the slaves must come at a price. It can't be easy. There must be deaths. The problem comes with the specific numbers involved. I had never envisioned a death toll of 42% among the slaves (or the death of a member of the fellowship) as this would do serious damage to the careful equation we'd concocted at the beginning of the game. Regin, Tevildo, and Umdomie are also correct that such a drastic shift in numbers would necessitate a different plot than the one originally envisioned. In relation to this, here is the original agreement on the distances between the camps.

If we assume the slavers took one hour to return to camp and galloping horses go 6.7 mph (Fonstad's figure), the distance between the two camps is 6-7 miles.

Given the figure of seven miles, it is quite conceivable that the injured slaver could reach the orc camp on horseback in about an hour and spill the beans to Ishkur as to what has happened. Of course, the slaver could also go wandering off in the desert and never be heard from again.

I think we can reach a middle ground here: realistic numbers of dead but enough alive to preserve the original storyline. But to do that, minor changes will have to be made. I am therefore making the following requests.....

1. First, Tevildo, you were right about the numbers. We started off with 65 slaves. More importantly, please don't kill your characters without trying to work this out. I understand why you felt you had to do that. If the situation was this dire in the grove, Azhar would have died and Dorran as well trying to help her. Let's assume for a moment that the number of deaths is a wee bit lower, the situation grave but not to the point of breaking. I see no problem with you continuing with your two posts for Azhar and Dorran, perhaps softening the first one just a tad with a word here and there (nothing drastic).

Would you consider having Lindir come in to help pull the chestnuts out of the fire? He is the actually the character with the most experience in war and would likely keep a cool ahead and come up with a trick or two to get you two free from that brute. He may pay a small price, but being an elf who heals quickly does have certain advantages. (He also has the advantage of height and several thousand years of battling against Morgoth and Sauron.) I am not the greatest writer of battle posts, but I'll do my best.

2. Undomie - Whoa! I wish I could write with your energy and decisiveness when it comes to action. Could you soften it ever so slightly? Have some of the deaths be injuries? This wouldn't take much revision, just indicating they are stunned or whatever rather than dead. I will let you be the judge of the correct number of deaths to injuries. Just remember we have to rise again to fight a much worse enemy, and I don't mean orcs!

3. Regin -- Could you just hold off filling that save? I know you and the other orcs have good reason to be restless but please wait till the rest of this falls more into place. I really would like to keep to the original plot we agreed on: some portion of the fellowship will travel to the slavers' old camp late tonight and catch the orcs there -- the men half drunk and the women playing the role suggested by Tolkien in pleading for mercy. (Pleading? Maybe that's the wrong word...I'm not sure how an orc would ask or demand a break. That could be interesting to see.) Then the good guys will face a gigantic moral dilemma.

The glue that will hold this all together is what Aiwendil is going to find when he's out there on the plain heading back to camp snorting and smelling the night air. The one thing that's guaranteed to bring two enemies together is when they discover they have an even larger headache to face in the near future, one tha could destroy them both.

Nogrod - I know this isn't 100% of what you wanted, but I think it does tread a middle line so we can all continue with our characters and storylines.

If you or anyone has more ideas on this, just share them on the discussion thread.

Oh, yes....the death of Aedhild. That's up to you, Brinniel, and what you need to do with the character.....although at this point I'd love to see a certain number of warm, living bodies.

[Tevildo]

Child -

I am more comfortable with this so let's go ahead. There's still going to be some sad deaths and injuries in that grove but hopefully not so many that we can't continue with the same story line.

Let's assume for a moment that the number of deaths is a wee bit lower, the situation grave but not to the point of breaking. I see no problem with you continuing with your two posts for Azhar and Dorran, perhaps softening the first one just a tad with a word here and there (nothing drastic).

Yes, I can do that. But probably not till tomorrow.

Would you consider having Lindir come in to help pull the chestnuts out of the fire?

That would be helpful. I will send you my ideas. To make this believable, one of my two characters should probably get hurt, but no one will die. My characters seem to have a knack for getting sick and injured since both of them have already been in the infirmary once. Athwen could make a fortune if she could just start charging for all these "housecalls".

[Brinniel]

I definitely agree on what's being said here. While at first we may have gone over a little much on the heroics, this devastation that has suddenly swept through the camp is just too overwhelming, and in my opinion, has gone overboard. Not only would we lose the large number we need, but emotionally, how would the remaining ex-slaves carry on? We lose that many ex-slaves, and we lose that sense of hope we need to start that new beginning.

Tevildo, as others mentioned before, please don't kill your characters. Azhar and Dorran are great characters and it'd be terrible to lose them. And while I knew characters would be killed off, I never imagined them to be the main characters. I've killed off my own character before in a different RPG when I saw it necessary, and honestly it just plain sucks because once your characters are all dead, you're done. And I don't know about everyone else, but I'd hate to lose you as a writer on this RPG. Dorran may be slightly injured, but I would think he could successfully rescue Azhar. After all, he is a Rider of Rohan (not to mention ex-slave), so he should be pretty tough, right?

And as for Aedhild... If no one minds, I would still like to kill her off. After all, with Nova gone, she is now an NPC, therefore not important to the story, plus I have this really great idea on her death that I'd like to use. Here's what I could do: I'll have Aedhild be one of the woman that were mentioned in Undome's post. At that point of time, she won't have died just yet, but will be seriously injured. Eirnar will find her, and that's basically where my post will pick up. Eirnar will definitely not die; instead I can use him as another reinforcement. Depending on what Durelin posts, perhaps I will have him aid Shae and Khamir.

EDIT: Seems I'm a little slow on my posting, as I have only just read your last post Tevildo, but I'm glad to see you're not killing them off.

[Folwren]

Thank you, thank you, thank you for not killing your characters, Tevildo!!! Thanks much, Durelin and Child, for your girls' posts. He wouldn't listen to me! This morning was tough. I didn't want to tell you then, because I didn't want to disuade you with my personal feelings, but I was down right depressed as we wrote those PMs, Tevildo, and you were so set and determined to kill poor Azhar and Dorran.

As to how to continue, Athwen can also run in and help. If she looks up and over to see the women and children attacked and then kind of runs forward in alarm, sees them all scattered, and then sees Azhar hurt, perhaps Dorran can jump in against the slaver, Athwen can run forward and get Azhar (move her, half carry, half drag, maybe) while Dorran distracts the slaver. And then Lindir can come and help Dorran.

How's that sound? Please can we do it? I've not been able to do anything with Athwen this whole battle, except run on the horse and then try to mend people.

I am so happy now, you can't guess.

Cheers!

-- Folwren

[Regin Hardhammer]

Ah, well! You win some and you lose some. Part of me was dreaming about leading a victorious army against the slaves and fellowship. I guess it's back to the horse farm.

But really, this is better.....the idea of the two groups having to cooperate. I've erased my save for now. I still may do a scene with that slaver who's escaped, but I'll do it later in the night. I think Nogrod is right that it would take him a little longer to find his way back to the camp.

[Child of the 7th Age]

As to how to continue, Athwen can also run in and help. If she looks up and over to see the women and children attacked and then kind of runs forward in alarm, sees them all scattered, and then sees Azhar
hurt, perhaps Dorran can jump in against the slaver

Folwren -

This sounds good to me from Lindir's perspective. We'll see what Tevildo says. I'm also relieved that Dorran and Azhar will continue to be part of the story.

And as for Aedhild... If no one minds, I would still like to kill her off. After all, with Nova gone, she is now an NPC, therefore not important to the story, plus I have this really great idea on her death that I'd like to use.

Brinniel -

If you've got a good story idea, definitely run with it.

Part of me was dreaming about leading a victorious army against the slaves and fellowship. I guess it's back to the horse farm.

Regin -

The trials and tribulations of being an orc! I sympathize. Actually, someday I'd like to do an RPG from a "Marxist" perspective that acted out the "Orc as worker" theories that abound about LotR! I think I may have to sneak a story like that in through the back door of the RPG forums!