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01-16-2007, 03:27 PM | #1 | |
A Voice That Gainsayeth
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Lost Tale of a Lost Dwarven Tribe and Thranduil?
I was just reading the Hobbit and I came upon a very interesting part. At the end of Chapter 8: Flies and Spiders, we are introduced to the Silvan Elves who captured Thorin. We learn about their king (later named as Thranduil, father of Legolas, in LotR) and apart from that we learn about his only weakness which was that he liked beautiful (especially silver) treasures, we also read an interesting tale about why he didn't like the dwarves. If you are interested, read with me:
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...except for that we have just the name "elf-king" here for the participant, and it looks very much like that only one, not two kings are mentioned in this tale. And this would be "our" king = Thranduil. Just look at the text where the words "(the!) elf-king" are used. If you put the word "Thingol" somewhere in the text, it wouldn't make sense (well, unless it was actually Thingol who captured Thorin&co.!!! ). This actually implies the idea that we are not re-told the tale of Thingol, but that we are told another, maybe similar, tale of Thranduil and some dwarven tribe (history repeating itself? It wouldn't be for the first time! Beren&Lúthien, Aragorn&Arwen, for example...). Maybe he had had some pacts with those enigmatic dwarves from the Grey Mountains (not Durin's folk, mind you!). So, has anyone any ideas or evidencies which might bring more light to this matter? Have we just discovered an untold tale? Join the quest for truth! How could the Nazgul take Minas Morgul? Do Balrogs have wings? Do the Barrow-wights ever wash their legs? (okay, I'm leaving this one out, might get a lil bit touchy!) WAS THRANDUIL THINGOL??? But seriously!
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01-16-2007, 04:57 PM | #2 |
Guard of the Citadel
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This could be.
We know Thranduil left Lindon sometime before the year 1000 of the Second Age, so he might have already been alive during the First, and might have also come in contact with Dwarves of the Blue Mountains. This is the best explanation I can find, since it is made clear that Durin's folk was not involved, so if it involved Thranduil this took place before he left Lindon. Still, it could also be that Tolkien made a not so appropriate choice of words.
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01-16-2007, 05:44 PM | #3 | |
Regal Dwarven Shade
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I have to admit that the wording there is rather curious.
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Hmmm...this one requires more pondering.
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01-17-2007, 01:03 AM | #4 |
Animated Skeleton
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I think that Tolkien was probably thinking of Thingol and that story when he wrote it, never realizing that nearly seventy years later, we'd be puzzling about it on a website, never realizing that the Silmarillion and the HObbit would both be published and be part of the same "history."
Inside the world of Middle-earth itself I would explain it in one of two ways: 1. There IS a "lost"(or never-written) story regarding Thranduil and some non-Durin-type Dwarves. 2. The original "writer" of the Hobbit(Bilbo--or as I call him, Ol' Bilb-- himself) was thinking af Thingol and got his stories muddled up(he may have heard the story of Thingol and the Dwarves from Thranduil and just gotten confused) because at the time of writing he wasn't such a scholar of the First Age as he later became. I suppose I like the first explanation better--that at some point Thranduil did have some conflict with non-Long-beard Dwarves of the Grey Mountains, and this tiny reference is all we hear about it: it could have been one of the many minor things that happened in the Third Age(or even the Second, I suppose) that aren't included in the "translator's" abridged offering of the Tale of Years.
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01-17-2007, 06:22 AM | #5 | |||
A Voice That Gainsayeth
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Quote:
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Do you think Bilbo was really yet "uneducated" when writing the Red Book? He made revisions of it, from time to time, I'm quite sure (take just the title, he changed it about five times). And he was long enough in Rivendell to correct the things he was not able to understand first. An example of something similar in another topic: he, for example, rewrote the original poem of a mariner to the form we hear in Rivendell, where he made clear all the details and that it was about Eärendil. Quote:
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"Should the story say 'he ate bread,' the dramatic producer can only show 'a piece of bread' according to his taste or fancy, but the hearer of the story will think of bread in general and picture it in some form of his own." -On Fairy-Stories |
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01-17-2007, 04:57 PM | #6 | |
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Quote:
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01-18-2007, 03:57 AM | #7 | |
A Voice That Gainsayeth
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Quote:
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"Should the story say 'he ate bread,' the dramatic producer can only show 'a piece of bread' according to his taste or fancy, but the hearer of the story will think of bread in general and picture it in some form of his own." -On Fairy-Stories |
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01-18-2007, 10:21 AM | #8 | |
Dead Serious
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I'll stand in for Kuru.... I'm using a Kuru-esque avatar, so that'll be permissible, methinks.
Starting in the First Age, each of the seven houses of Dwarves had a sort of "mountain range" they called home. Starting in the west, we have: The Firebeards and the Broadbeams, or the Dwarves of Nogrod and Belegost, in the Blue Mountains. These are the Dwarves we see in the Silmarillion. The Dwarves of Nogrod were decimated by the Elves, after their major quarrel with Thingol, and both mansions suffered greatly in the breaking of Beleriand at end of the First Age. The survivors (mostly from Belegost), mainly moved eastwards to Khazad-dûm, and joined the people of Durin. The Dwarves of the Blue Mountains, in later ages, were mostly Dwarves of Durin's race who moved back into the area after troubles in Moria and Erebor. The Longbeards, or people of Durin, dwelt in Moria in the Misty Mountains. In their early years they occupied all the Misty Mountains, including Mt. Gundabad, as well as eastwards to the Iron Hills, where they would continue to have a presence until the Fourth Age, at least. After the loss of Khazad-dûm in the mid-3rd Age, the Longbeards removed to Erebor, by way of the Grey Mountains. From their ancestral domination of the mountains around the Wilderland, and from this time of wandering, it is clear that any Dwarves in the Grey Mountains would of necessity have been Longbeards (and the intermingled Dwarves of Belegost descent, by this time). East of the Iron Hills, we know little of the last four houses of Dwarves. Nearer to the Iron Hills dwelt the Ironfists and the Stiffbeards, and furthest away dwelt the Blacklocks and the Stonefoots. We know nothing of their locations save that they were at distances "as great or great than that between the Blue Mountains and Gundabad". These Dwarves seem the most likely to have provided the few Dwarves that served with Sauron in the War of the Last Alliance, and also provided aid to the Longbeards in the days of Thraín II, at the Battle of Azanulbizar. They also are referenced, most likely, in the "The Shadow of the Past": Quote:
Up to the italicised line, when Tolkien talks of dwarves using the East-West Road, he would mostly be talking of the Longbeards, who had resettled those mines in the Blue Mountains, and who would have been travelling back and forth to Erebor (or in earlier times, Moria). However, the line that I have italicised clearly deals with new, different Dwarves "of far countries", who are clearly not the Longbeards familiar to the Hobbits. Coming from east of the Iron Hills, they fit both the profile of "strange Dwarves" and would certainly have been in lands being once again dominated by Sauron. So, there you have it: my "short" discursus on the different Dwarves and their homes. The above is all taken (with the exception of the Fellowship of the Ring quote) from HoME vol. XII The Peoples of Middle-Earth, from the essay entitled "Of Dwarves and Men". It dates to around the time Tolkien was working on the Appendices, during the publication of the LotR, and is, as I recall, never contradicted in a later statement, and can be taken as pretty much canonical.
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01-18-2007, 12:41 PM | #9 | ||
A Voice That Gainsayeth
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Oh, really thank you, Formendacil. I originally thought that there could have been some tribe in the Grey Mountains, you know, like in the Blue mts. the tribes were in pair, there could've been someone with the Durin's folk...
Why I have thought that there were some Dwarves apart from Durin's folk in the Grey Mountains: I think that Longbeards started to settle in there around 1980-2210. According to the Appendices: Quote:
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And those Ironfists and Stiffbeards you mention, couldn't they have lived close enough to make contact with Thranduil? If you say "as far as Gundabad from Blue mts. or even further", the least possible distance is about 600 miles, which is about the same distance as from Gundabad to the eastern end of the Iron Hills. Ironfists??? Just by the way, where is that information about Dwarven tribes available? It is in HoME? Where?
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"Should the story say 'he ate bread,' the dramatic producer can only show 'a piece of bread' according to his taste or fancy, but the hearer of the story will think of bread in general and picture it in some form of his own." -On Fairy-Stories |
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01-18-2007, 01:54 PM | #10 | |
Haunting Spirit
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Quote:
Last edited by Ghazi; 01-18-2007 at 01:57 PM. |
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01-18-2007, 02:58 PM | #11 | |
A Voice That Gainsayeth
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Quote:
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"Should the story say 'he ate bread,' the dramatic producer can only show 'a piece of bread' according to his taste or fancy, but the hearer of the story will think of bread in general and picture it in some form of his own." -On Fairy-Stories |
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01-18-2007, 10:56 PM | #12 | ||
Dead Serious
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Quote:
Quote:
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01-20-2007, 09:57 AM | #13 | |
Regal Dwarven Shade
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Quote:
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01-22-2007, 02:33 PM | #14 | |
Guard of the Citadel
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Sorry to say this, but your theory is wrong.
Tolkien himself says about the Hobbit in letter 257: Quote:
He himself says that this was only a reference to the, at that time, unfinished story of Thingol and the Dwarves.
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01-22-2007, 02:47 PM | #15 |
A Voice That Gainsayeth
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*cries*
Okay, I knew that, but I at least supposed that there might be no proof... I hoped that we might find some evidence, even little, which I could use to support my theory... But nevertheless! This means one thing: the Red Book of Westmarch, written by honorable Mr. Bilbo Baggins himself, puts forward clear evidence that THRANDUIL WAS THINGOL!!! mwahahahaha... And who gets the Nobel prize? (hint hint) Really, show me any more shocking find! (not mentioning, for the Legolas fans, that this means Leggy was Lúthien's brother!)
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"Should the story say 'he ate bread,' the dramatic producer can only show 'a piece of bread' according to his taste or fancy, but the hearer of the story will think of bread in general and picture it in some form of his own." -On Fairy-Stories Last edited by Legate of Amon Lanc; 01-22-2007 at 03:07 PM. |
01-26-2007, 01:14 AM | #16 |
Wight
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Interesting, and evidently it means that Thingol was freed from Mandos and sent back (just like Glorfindel, and probably at the same time), but chose to go incongito, as presumably it wouldn't do to go shouting around who he really was on account of some of the troubles he'd caused during the first.
But where does that leave Oropher? I await a further theory... |
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