The three rings of power that the elve had

hi i don't know if this has been discussed but i know that sauron never knew who had the three rings the elves hid away from him nethertheless didn't saruman know so why didn't he tell sauron

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

That's quite interesting thought. But could he possibly have told Sauron? I wonder if Saruman, being the part of the White Council and all, had known about the Elven Rings...
We know that the Rings were his domain, he studied all he could about them, as Gandalf himself says in the Council of Elrond:

The lore of the Elven-rings, great and small, is his province. He has long studied it, seeking the lost secrets of their making...

And since it was well known that there were some "Three rings to the elven kings under the sky", it is safe to assume that Saruman might be interested also in their whereabouts. We know that Saruman discovered that Gandalf had Narya, as is written in the Unfinished Tales:

And the Grey Messenger took the Ring, and kept it ever secret; yet the White Messenger (who was skilled to uncover all secrets) after a time became aware of this gift, and begrudged it, and it was the beginning of the hidden ill-will that he bore to the Grey, which afterwards became manifest.

However, we don't know what Saruman knew about the other two Rings. I am quite convinced that Elrond and Galadriel never told him about the Rings they had. The Rings were secret even between the elves of Rivendell and Lórien, although the inhabitants might have suspected something like that, it was never explicitely told that the Rings really are there. Galadriel revealed her Ring to Frodo as if it had been a great mystery:

'Yes,' she said, divining his thought, `it is not permitted to speak of it, and Elrond could not do so. But it cannot be hidden from the Ring-bearer, and one who has seen the Eye. Verily it is in the land of Lórien upon the finger of Galadriel that one of the Three remains. This is Nenya, the Ring of Adamant, and I am its keeper.' - The Mirror of Galadriel

Galadriel, I think, speaks to us very clearly in this point. The rings are tabu. And as we also know, she did not like Saruman, so even if she wanted to tell someone about the Ring, it would certainly not be him.
Continuing this speech, Galadriel also speaks about Sauron, that

`He suspects, but he does not know – not yet.'

We might assume the same about Saruman. He could have suspected, but he wouldn't know for sure. On the other hand, we are told that Saruman was "skilled to uncover all secrets" and that he revealed Gandalf's possession of Narya, hence, it is not impossible that similar ways he discovered the truth about Elrond and/or Galadriel's Rings.

But even if Saruman had known about the Rings, I am not sure if he would have revealed that knowledge to Sauron. Personally I think he would not - he didn't tell Sauron about the Shire, for example, and many other things. Saruman played with his own cards, and he wanted to claim the One Ring for his own, he had no need to tell Sauron - even if he was in situation where he needed to "buy" Sauron's trust by providing information, I'm sure he could have used some less important information to satisfy the questioner. And if he would have been explicitely asked, he could have repeated the words of Galadriel: "I have my own suspicions, but I am not sure, not yet. Perhaps later, yes m'lord, surely I'll look into this."

This wouldn't be of much use to Sauron, because from what we are told in the UT (The History of Galadriel and Celeborn, "Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn"), Sauron had the same suspicions already from the Second Age:

Concerning the Three Rings Sauron could learn nothing from Celebrimbor; and he had him put to death. But he guessed the truth, that the Three had been committed to Elvish guardians: and that must mean to Galadriel and Gil-galad.

So the only thing Sauron wouldn't know would be if Galadriel received two Rings and Gil-galad one, or vice versa, or if someone else got the third, and where the Rings have gone after the death of Gil-Galad.

And the last thing. Even if Sauron had learned the whereabouts of the Rings, it wouldn't be of much use to him, it would only help him in marking the most important targets of his armed assault. Only if he (or Saruman) gained the possession of the One Ring, they will be able to uncover and destroy all that has been done with the Elven Rings.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

What Sauron could not know was wether Gil-Galad and Galadriel had passed them on. . .well, Galadriel probably wouldn't unless she had two.

I know that it says that Saruman became aware of the ring, but for some reason I have alwas thought of it as if he suspected it, but did not know it. That could also explain why the ring was not taken from Gandalf during his imprissonment.

It is clear that Sauron did not know who had the rings, but meerly suspected sertain people. Now this either means that Saruman did not know either or that he found it convinient to keep Sauron in the dark about this. . .

I guess one just have to decide what is most plausible.

[Lalwendë]

Sauron knew the Three existed. When they were first worn, their bearers 'perceived' that Sauron, via the One Ring, could 'perceive' them, so they took them off again.

As soon as Sauron set the One Ring upon his finger they were aware of him; and they knew him, and perceived that he would be the master of them, and of all that they wrought. Then in anger and fear they took off their rings.

they were given into the hands of the Wise, who concealed them and never again used them openly while Sauron kept the Ruling Ring. Therefore the Three remained unsullied, for they were forged by Celebrimbor alone, and the hand of Sauron had never touched them; yet they also were subject to the One.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Yes but that was before his fall. . .he could not have known who had them at the time of LotR unless Saruman told him.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Rune Son of Bjarne

Yes but that was before his fall. . .he could not have known who had them at the time of LotR unless Saruman told him.

I reckon he could have had a pretty good idea. Sauron had his minions all over the place so he knew about Lothlorien (and indeed it had come under attack from Orcs so that suggests he was suspicious) and he knew who was powerful in Middle-earth. If I'd been Sauron I could have made myself a good shortlist. The one that might have been a bit of a curveball though would have been Gandalf being a ringbearer; Sauron may well have suspected Saruman instead, had he even suspected a non-Elf of having one of the three.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

No one has doubted that Sauron had a very good idea about who possesed the rings, but the main thing is that he did not know. My guess would be that this uncertainty was quite the frustration for Sauron and not unimportant.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Yeah, if you look up the thread, I quoted Galadriel there, where she says that Sauron "suspects, but does not know - not yet". The main thing is that he presumably had pretty good idea of who might have had the Ring, but as Rune said, he didn't know for sure. We don't know what he knew about all the mighty elves in that time. He might for example have suspected Glorfindel (who was the one who drove off the Witch-King in the fall of Angmar), Círdan (who after all had Narya in his possession at first), maybe even Thranduil. Also, there was the possibility that Galadriel was first given two of the Rings, then perhaps Celeborn could have the other one? Or Arwen or Celebrían before (if Sauron knew about them), or some other mighty Elf.

[Lalwendë]

Maybe that's why the Orcs waylaid Celebrian?

But the list is not long, so when Galadriel says that Sauron does not know she must also be telling us that Sauron, for whatever reason, would only go after one of the three Elven ring bearers if he did know for sure. That to me suggests that he also knows or at least suspects that these rings confer tremendous powers. Or else that he simply has not had the power to confront his 'suspects' up to this stage. I think it's during the war of the Ring that the Orc attacks on Lothlorien dramatically increase, so perhaps he has only been building up his strength until he feels he can attack who he suspects of having an Elven ring?

Or maybe he could not care less and he is just waiting to get the One back so he can attempt to dominate them again? If he had got it back, then all those rings would have had to be taken off - and presumably the power protecting Lothlorien and Rivendell would wane.

[Boromir88]

I agree with Lal that Sauron must of had a very short list of possible candidates for the Elven Ring bearers. It wouldn't surprise me if he guessed that Gil-galad had at least one of them then figured out through some logical thinking that Elrond...being Gil-galad's herald and named heir would have received a Ring. Which would leave of the Elves likely candidates being Galadriel, Cirdan, and perhaps Glorfindel. I also agree that it would probably be hard for him to figure out that Gandalf had one of the Elven Rings, I don't see Sauron really getting any info about Gandalf having one of the Ring. As his was passed down to him by Cirdan. Anyway, that's just all guessing as far as to whom Sauron thought may of had the Elven Rings.

As far as Saruman, I think it's more likely who knew who held the Elven Rings. They were his 'specialty,' he already came to guess that Gandalf had one of them:

And the Grey Messenger took the Ring, and kept it ever secret; yet the White Messenger (who was skilled to uncover all secrets) after a time became aware of this gift, and begrudged it, and it was the beginning of the hidden ill-will that he bore to the Grey, which afterwards became manifest.

Saruman, the 'skilled uncoverer of secrets' figured out Gandalf had one of the Elven Rings...it wouldn't surprise me as head of the White Council (and being members themselves) he would have figured out Galadriel and Elrond also had 'em.

nethertheless didn't saruman know so why didn't he tell sauron

I think Saruman did know about them all. However, that's not sure...it is rather certain that he knew Gandalf had one of the Elven Rings. Anyway, let's just say for the heck of it Saruman did know who had possessed all the Elven Rings. That doesn't mean he told Sauron, and I actually doubt that he willingly did.

Sauron may have come to read Saruman's thoughts and minds; however I doubt Saruman would have willingly told Sauron who had the Elven Rings. The relationship between Sauron and Saruman was a tense one. I don't think Tolkien intended this to be an allegory; but I think the best example of explaining the 'alliance' between Sauron and Saruman would be to explain the one between Hitler and Stalin in WWII.

See the Soviets were in a tight spot, because nobody liked the communists at this time. Stalin first tried to make an alliance with France and England, but they told Stalin to buzz off. Then Hitler came with an offer to Stalin. Hitler wanted to avoid a two-front war again, so he gets Stalin to sign on to this 10 year non-aggression pact, where both sides agreed not to attack eachother for 10 years. Hitler wanted to deal with England and France first, then he would wheel around to attack the Soviets. He didn't want the Soviets to open a second-front on him so, he signed this non-aggression pact with Stalin.

Now Stalin knew Hitler wasn't a man of his war and hated Hitler probably as bad as Hitler hated him. So needless to say Stalin knew that Hitler was going to go back on his word and he wanted to get prepared for when Hitler does. The secret part of the agreement was Germany would invade the western half of Poland and he would let the Soviets take the Eastern half; this would create a little buffer-zone between the two countries. Bottomline is their relationship was tense throughout the entire war...Hitler didn't like the communist Soviets and the feeling was mutual as Stalin knew Hitler was going to turn around and attack him.

The Saruman/Sauron relationship was quite similar. Saruman was budying up to Sauron as Saruman had his own plans and he knew that if he joined with Sauron it would be the easiest way to accomplish what he wanted. Saruman was secretly planning to backstab Sauron:

"A new Power is rising. Against it the old allies and policies will not avail us at all. There is no hope left in Elves or dying Numenor. This then is one chioce before you, before us. We may join with that Power. It would be wise, Gandalf. There is hope that way. Its victory is at hand; and there will be rich reward for those that aided it. As the Power grows, its proved friends will also grow; and the Wise, such as you and I, may with patience come at last to direct its courses, to control it. We can bid our time, we can keep our thoughts in our hearts, deploring maybe evils done by the way, but approving the hight and ultimate purpose: Knowledge, Rule, Order; all the things we have so far striven in vain to accomplish, hindered by our weak or idle friends. There need not be, there would not be, any real change in our designs, only in our means."~The Council of Elrond

Saruman was secretly planning to get the Ring for himself so he could become the new 'Lord of the Rings.' And it's safe to say Sauron knew what Saruman was up to; he was just trying to take advantage of Saruman and 'milk' Saruman for all he was worth:

'Saruman is a fool, and a dirty treacherous fool. But the Great Eye is on him.~The Uruk-hai (Grishnakh)

'But they shall help to rebuild Isengard which they have wantonly destroyed, and that shall be Sauron's, and there his lieutenant shall dwell: not Saruman, but one more worthy of trust.'~The Black Gate Opens (The Mouth of Sauron)

Saruman was kind of in the same boat as Stalin, no one really liked him. England and France first denied an alliance with the Soviets, then when Hitler attacked the Soviets, it was kind of an 'the enemy of my enemy is my friend' sort of deal between England, France, and the USSR. The relationship between the three powers (in which the US would also enter in) because a tense one. And after WWII Stalin the sides would all hold a grudge. Stalin had repeatedly begged England, France, and the US to open up a second front and relieve some of the pressure Hitler was putting on the USSR. Eventually they did open up another front, but Stalin thought it was too little too late for his country and he would hold the three countries in contempt after WWII which pretty much immediately after came the Cold War. Throughout WWII nobody really liked Stalin and the Soviets.

Saruman had ticked off the 'good guys' of Middle-earth and he had ticked off his 'ally' Sauron. Though I stress that like the Hitler/Stalin pact the Saruman/Sauron relationship was tense and each one was trying to deceive the other.

Ok, so now all that info is out of the way...eventhough both Sauron and Saruman had a general agreement to work for eachother during this 'War.' They weren't on the best of terms, both were trying to trick the other one. And I doubt Saruman would willingly give information to Sauron about the whereabouts of any of the Rings of Power had he known. Sauron would of had to sort of read Sarumans thoughts and mind in order to get information that Saruman knew.

[Alcuin]

Sauron figured out where the Three Rings were first bestowed. Consider this passage from Unfinished Tales, “The History of Galadriel and Celeborn”, “Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn”:

When Sauron learned of the repentance and revolt of Celebrimbor his disguise fell and his wrath was revealed... Celebrimbor ... himself withstood Sauron on the steps of the great door of the Mírdain; but he was ... taken captive, and the House was ransacked. There Sauron took the Nine Rings and other lesser works of the Mírdain; but the Seven and the Three he could not find. ...Celebrimbor was put to torment, and Sauron learned from him where the Seven were bestowed. ... the Three were made by Celebrimbor alone, with a different power and purpose. ... Concerning the Three Rings Sauron could learn nothing from Celebrimbor; and he had him put to death. But he guessed the truth, that the Three had been committed to Elvish guardians: and that must mean to Galadriel and Gil-galad.

Celebrimbor delivered Nenya to Galadriel himself, and acting upon her advice, sent Gil-galad Vilya and Narya.

Gil-galad in turn gave Narya to Círdan, either immediately or when he set out for the War of the Last Alliance: Christopher Tolkien as editor of Unfinished Tales says that in the text, Gil-galad gave Narya to Círdan right away, but a marginal note says that he kept it for most of the Second Age. Vilya he apparently kept until the War of the Last Alliance, when he gave it to Elrond.

The question might not be whether Sauron determined who had the Three during the Second Age, but who possessed them during the Third Age. Elrond, I suppose, is an easy guess; and after that, Círdan would be pretty easy, too, until one considers some of the powerful Noldorin Elves living in Rivendell, such as Glorfindel.