Did Saruman Believe He Could Master The One Ring?

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Fordim

Because he knows that the Hobbit (with the Ring) was travelling with three other Hobbits who probably have a good idea of where their friend is at (with said Ring).

Originally Posted by Fordim

To extract certain information (see above) ...

But, as Gandalf states, he did not only want information. Regardless of the Hobbit's information value, he wanted the Hobbit. He was obsessed with the Hobbit. Why?

Originally Posted by Fordim

... and, well, he enjoys tormenting innocents.

I don't doubt that he does. But he was particularly excited about the prospect of entertaining this particular Hobbit at Barad-Dur. Why?

Originally Posted by Fordim

That Sauron thought Pippin was, and I quote "captive" in Isengard and not riding free with Gandalf with Isengard in smoking ruins behind them.

Well, it's not going to take him long to clear up that particular misunderstanding. A Nazgul was en route to Isengard even as Gandalf was speaking. Yet Gandalf says that it may be some time before Sauron learns of his error. What error could that be?

[Raynor]

Yet Gandalf says that it may be some time before Sauron learns of his error. What error could that be?

I think that the error in question was Sauron believing that the hobbit and the palantir were in Saruman's control.

[Mister Underhill]

The Nazgûl en route (the one that passed over Dol Baran) was not sent as a result of Pippin looking into the stone, as G tells Pippin himself, and G is fairly explicit about the "error":

'But it was not coming for me, was it?' faltered Pippin. 'I mean, it didn't know that I had… '

'Of course not,' said Gandalf. 'It is two hundred leagues or more in straight flight from Barad-dûr to Orthanc, and even a Nazgûl would take a few hours to fly between them. But Saruman certainly looked in the Stone since the orc-raid, and more of his secret thought, I do not doubt, has been read than he intended. A messenger has been sent to find out what he is doing. And after what has happened tonight another will come, I think, and swiftly. So Saruman will come to the last pinch of the vice that he has put his hand in. He has no captive to send. He has no Stone to see with, and cannot answer the summons. Sauron will only believe that he is withholding the captive and refusing to use the Stone. It will not help Saruman to tell the truth to the messenger. For Isengard may be ruined, yet he is still safe in Orthanc. So whether he will or no, he will appear a rebel.

As a sidebar, more evidence that calling a hobbit an "it" is not at all unusual or unprecedented may be found in the dialogue of Shagrat and Gorbag regarding Frodo:

'Lugbúrz wants it, eh? What is it, d'you think? Elvish it looked to me, but undersized. What's the danger in a thing like that?'

EDIT: Cross-posted with Raynor.

[the phantom]

I think that the error in question was Sauron believing that the hobbit and the palantir were in Saruman's control.

Ah, but SPM's point was that the error Gandalf spoke of would take some time to clear up, where as the error you are speaking of (believing the palantir and the hobbit were at Isengard) is a quickly corrected error. That makes me think that the error that would take some time to clear up is Sauron's mistaken belief that the Ring itself was at Isengard, had been at Isengard, or was at least with those who had been at Isengard.

EDIT: Btw, I just thought I'd mention that every bit of speculation we do based on Gandalf's words is guess work at best. Gandalf did not know everything. He has been very wrong before, and has a habit of stating things as fact that were not truly known.

[Boromir88]

I think that the error in question was Sauron believing that the hobbit and the palantir were in Saruman's control.~Raynor

But why would the error be about the palantir when there is no mention of the crystal ball throughout the quote Mr. Underhill supplied?

That dark mind will be filled now with the voice and face of the hobbit and with expectation: it may take some time before he learns his error.

The error has to do with Pippin, nothing at all with the palantir. Gandalf thinks Sauron has made an error with Pippin. Sauron's mind is filled with Pippin's voice and image, and this is where Sauron has erred (according to Gandalf). This whole matter is about Pippin, not Sauron thinking Saruman still had the palantir, he cares about getting Pippin. So what is this error that Gandalf thinks Sauron has made and it will take him a while to recognize it?

Well, I think we can say it's safe to assume that Sauron wouldn't want Pippin to simply for the pleasure of torturing a little hobbit and mounting him in his room (ehem: Fordim). Sauron may have taken pleasure in making people work for him, but he's got thousands of Orcs to do this, and I doubt he's going to send one of his Nazgul to Isengard to go fetch him a toy to play with. Isn't there bunnies or leprecauns around or something?

Also, according to Gandalf, Pippin wasn't only wanted for information (so there would have to be at least two reasons Sauron hoped to acquire when receiving Pippin). So going to get Pippin either Sauron wanted:

1. Information and a fun hobbit to play with
2. Information and the Ring
(Or I guess you could say)
3. Information, the Ring, and a hobbit to play with.

Now why would Gandalf feel that Sauron made an error in choosing Pippin to be tortured? It just doesn't seem to make a whole lot of sense. Sauron is now filled with the mind and voice of the Hobbit, and Gandalf says this is where Sauron has made his error. I really don't see Gandalf saying Sauron made an error in his choice of who he wanted to torture...maybe Gandalf thought Pippin wouldn't be all that fun to torture, and plus Pippin's was his to torture? Therefor, I see it has to be an item that Sauron believed Pippin had (or Saruman had already taken from him), and hoped to get when he got Pippin.

One might think why doesn't Sauron just say...The Ring is not for you, Saruman! Why doesn't he just say that...instead of being all coded and saying 'it' all the time? I think that's just it, Sauron wants to disguise his intentions, eventhough if they really are quite obvious...or at least obvious enough that it appears Gandalf picked up on what Sauron wanted from Pippin. Not just information, but something else. What else could Sauron want from a Hobbit beside the Ring or a slave/torture person? However, it really doesn't make a lot of sense that Sauron wanted Pippin so bad, because there was a lack of a labor force, or a lack of people to torture, in Mordor that he needed to get this Hobbit right away, and he needed a Nazgul to go get this Hobbit as soon as possible.

[Mister Underhill]

You might have read over the quote a little too quickly, Boro -- "...withholding the captive and refusing to use the Stone."

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by the phantom

Ah, but SPM's point was that the error Gandalf spoke of would take some time to clear up, where as the error you are speaking of (believing the palantir and the hobbit were at Isengard) is a quickly corrected error. That makes me think that the error that would take some time to clear up is Sauron's mistaken belief that the Ring itself was at Isengard, had been at Isengard, or was at least with those who had been at Isengard.

I don't think that it would take longer for Sauron understand that the ring wasn't in Isengard than understanding that Pippin & the palantir weren't there. After all, as the quote says, "Sauron will only believe that he is withholding the captive and refusing to use the Stone". That is a firm belief. All that he knows at that time leads him to this conclusion. However, that the ring is with that hobbit is only a presuposition - he hasn't seen the ring, but he has seen the hobbit in Saruman's palantir.

[Boromir88]

Mister Underhill, so I did speak a little hastily. But I don't think the error with Pippin has anything to do with the Palantir. With this whole mess Sauron has assumed several things wrong:

Pippin's a captive in Orthanc
Saruman had the Stone in Orthanc
Pippin is someone that would be important to Sauron. And not just for information.

I think the gloss you put on your last quote is a little out of context, let's look at the bigger picture:

'I was just wondering about the black shadow. I heard you shout "messenger of Mordor". What was it? What could it do at Isengard?'
'It was a Black Rider on wigs, a Nazgul,' said Gandalf. 'It could have taken you away to the Dark Tower.'
'But it was not coming for me, was it?' faltered Pippin. 'I mean it didn't know that I had...'
'Of course not,' said Gandalf. 'It is two hundred leagues or more in straight flight from Barad-dûr to Orthanc, and even a Nazgûl would take a few hours to fly between them. But Saruman certainly looked in the Stone since the orc-raid, and more of his secret thought, I do not doubt, has been read than he intended. A messenger has been sent to find out what he is doing. And after what has happened tonight another will come, I think, and swiftly. So Saruman will come to the last pinch of the vice that he has put his hand in. He has no captive to send. He has no Stone to see with, and cannot answer the summons. Sauron will only believe that he is withholding the captive and refusing to use the Stone. It will not help Saruman to tell the truth to the messenger. For Isengard may be ruined, yet he is still safe in Orthanc. So whether he will or no, he will appear a rebel. '

I get the impression there are two Nazgul heading to Isengard. The first one was sent before Pippin looked into the palantir, because Sauron wanted to find out what Saruman has been doing all this time and why he hadn't been using the stone. But after the events of tonight [Pippin looking into the stone] Gandalf thinks another will be sent to Isengard, and be sent swiftly. This would be the Black Rider Pippin would have to be fear, because this would be the one after the captive (him). The other one Gandalf guesses was sent to Isengard to figure out what Saruman was up to all this time, not the one sent after Pippin used the Palantir.

I think as phantom says there are many errors Sauron had made here. One was assuming Saruman still had the palantir, and I think as he says this can be easily rectified, especially with the quote above. However, there were other errors Sauron made and it would take him longer to figure it out...this might be assuming Pippin was the Hobbit with the Ring.

As I did speak hastily there was an error that Sauron thought Saruman had the palantir, however there was another error Sauron made and it dealt with Pippin, this is stated with the sentence talking about Sauron's mind being filled with Pippin's image and voice. Why would Sauron be so concerned about what Pippin looks like and how he talks if he wanted Pippin for sport? No, he's concerned about how Pippin looks and how he speaks because he has something Sauron wants...the most important thing Sauron wants (and not just information).

While it is true that hobbit can be dehumanized, as you have shown Mr. Underhill, I don't think that happens in this case, because structurally it doesn't make sense. Sauron says 'We shall meet again.' We is kind of like an in-group in sociology, there is a sense of equalization. Although Sauron and Pippin may not be equal in many areas, they are both people, and even Sauron recognizes this with 'We' (meaning You and I). So, now that Sauron has already set them up as equals on a certain level, why would he suddenly change to 'it?' There is a subject change between this encounter. It goes from 'We' to 'it' a person to a thing. It is just a confusing structure to make the argument that Sauron was making Pippin feel like he wasn't a person, because he had done that very thing.

In the examples you give, the word 'it' is used consistantly to refer to people, as in making them appear like they are less than human.

(At the rist of repeating myself through out this post, everything above is Gandalf's speculation).

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

Phantom you said:

I just thought I'd mention that every bit of speculation we do based on Gandalf's words is guess work at best.

Boro you said:

everything above is Gandalf's speculation

Ok, sure. But then isn't this...

Originally Posted by Boromir88

there was an error that Sauron thought Saruman had the palantir, however there was another error Sauron made and it dealt with Pippin, this is stated with the sentence talking about Sauron's mind being filled with Pippin's image and voice. Why would Sauron be so concerned about what Pippin looks like and how he talks if he wanted Pippin for sport? No, he's concerned about how Pippin looks and how he speaks because he has something Sauron wants...the most important thing Sauron wants (and not just information).

...and this...

Originally Posted by The Phantom

I think Sauron thought Saruman had captured the Ring bearer! Why else get excited and send a Nazgul? Would Saruman go to the Shire and kidnap Lobelia and show her to Sauron? Nope. What's the point? There's only one reason for Saruman to show off a hobbit to Sauron- to say "I've got the Ring!"

...not to mention this...

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

Did Sauron stop to consider the likelihood of Saruman “calling him up” in these circumstances? Possibly. Possibly not. If he did, my guess is that he thought that Saruman was prepared to hand the Ring over to him in return for favour, rather than risk having Sauron’s full force unleashed upon him. Sauron was an over-confident fellow who regarded himself and his capabilities highly and assumed that others would do so too. Alternatively, he may have thought that the captive Hobbit had been left alone by Saruman with the Palantir and had made a desperate attempt to call for help.

...also speculation?

Can someone please explain to me why speculating about what Gandalf said is somehow less compelling or convincing than speculating about what Sauron thought?

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Fordim Hedgethistle

Can someone please explain to me why speculating about what Gandalf said is somehow less compelling or convincing than speculating about what Sauron thought?

I am quite happy to accept that Gandalf has got it right. And Sauron thinking that Saruman had captured the Ringbearer is wholly consistent with what Gandalf says, namely that:

1. Sauron wants the Hobbit for something more than information.
2. Sauron wants the Hobbit urgently.
3. Sauron's mind is filled with the voice and the face of the Hobbit.
4. Sauron has made an error that will take some time to rectify.

Add to that the natural interpretation of Sauron's use of the word "it", particularly (as Boromir88 notes) after having addressed Pippin personally using the word "we".

So, speculation it may be. But it is speculation based firmly upon what we are told.

In any event, no one asserting that Sauron did not believe Pippin to be the Ringbearer has put forward any convincing explanation as to why Sauron (to Gandalf's mind) would be so obsessed with this Hobbit and why he would want him so urgently, if not only for information.

The suggestion that he anticipated Pippin's arrival at Barad-Dur so eagerly simply because he wanted another torture victim is hardly credible.

[Raynor]

He has no captive to send. He has no Stone to see with, and cannot answer the summons.

Don't you guys think there's something missing here? That's right, the ring. Gandalf doesn't think that Saruman will be held accountable for the not having the ring - just for the hobbit and palantir .

[The Saucepan Man]

He has no captive to send. He has no Stone to see with, and cannot answer the summons.

Captive = Ringbearer.

I can sense a poll coming on ...

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

Captive = Ringbearer.

I can sense a poll coming on ...

Take lots of vitamin C and stay in bed until it passes.

[Raynor]

I think that Gandalf would make a great error of judgement to believe that the ringbearer would hold a higher status than the ring in Sauron's mind, so as to not even mention the ring, but mention the ringbearer. If Gandalf genuinely believed Sauron expected to find the ring in Isengard, he would definitely have said something like "He has no ring to give, he has no captive to send. He has no Stone to see with, and cannot answer the summons". To underline, if even necessary, the importance of the ring to Sauron, compared to anything else, I will give these two quotes:

Originally Posted by The shadow of the past, FotR

So he is seeking it, seeking it, and all his thought is bent on it. It is his great hope and our great fear

Originally Posted by The last debate, RotK

If he regains it, your valour is vain, and his victory will be swift and complete: so complete that none can foresee the end of it while this world lasts. If it is destroyed, then he will fall; and his fall will be so low that none can foresee his arising ever again.

With all this emphasis on the ring, why wouldn't Sauron send all his nazgul, why only one, when all his victory would be at hand?

[The Saucepan Man]

I repeat ...

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

In any event, no one asserting that Sauron did not believe Pippin to be the Ringbearer has put forward any convincing explanation as to why Sauron (to Gandalf's mind) would be so obsessed with this Hobbit and why he would want him so urgently, if not only for information.

[Raynor]

In Unfinished Tales, The hunt for the ring, it is stated that Sauron was in great haste and fear when he heard that his enemies have captured Gollum. Apparently, he fears for anyone who has access to those with relevant information about the ring. Sure, he wants information for himself, but he also wants to hold off others from obtaining that information. I think that in this "others" we can safely include Saruman, of whom Sauron became aware that his servants waylaid or misled his own agents.

[Boromir88]

Can someone please explain to me why speculating about what Gandalf said is somehow less compelling or convincing than speculating about what Sauron thought?

By saying it's Gandalf's speculation, I'm actually implying both. Bottom line is we don't know what Sauron thought, we only know what Gandalf thought he thought. So, it would be incorrect for anyone to assert what Sauron truly thought (through Gandalf's thought), because we don't know what he actually thought except for what he tells Pippin through the Palantir. Which, what he tells Pippin through the Palantir seems to be:

1. He and Pippin will meet again.
2. He believes Saruman has something that isn't his to have.

Edit: Cross-posted with Raynor:

True, but according to Gandalf Sauron didn't just want Pippin for information, he actually believed he (or Saruman) had something else of importance that wasn't Saruman's to have. And I think we can say Gandalf's speculation in this case is accurate because we know what Sauron said to Pippin through the Palantir and he believed Saruman had something that wasn't his, and that Sauron will send for it.

[Raynor]

I don't think that Sauron believed Pippin to be the ringbearer. For one thing, the witch-king must have told him about his meeting with Frodo. As we know from Reader's Companion quote from Marquette, page 180, which has been presented several times on this site, the witch-king believed Frodo to be very powerful, able to defeat a barrow-wight and to even withstand the witch-king himself, almost giving him a mortal wound. Pippin is a _far_ cry from this.

[Boromir88]

I'm sure the Witch-King did give Sauron an account of Frodo and the whole adventure leading up to his horse being washed away in the flood. But, as was discussed earlier in this thread...did Sauron get a good image of what Frodo looked like through the WK's description (if indeed there even was a description given)? Would Sauron be able to tell if Pippin was Frodo or not? The phantom showed quite reasonably that the palantir did not paint a 'clear picture'...again Sauron didn't even know the palantir was out of Isengard anymore...how clear could the picture have been? How clear of a picture did the Witch-King get of Frodo? Afterall the encounter took place at night. Why would Sauron want to not only remember Pippin's face, but Pippin's voice? The question still remains what else is it that Sauron wanted from Saruman? Or what he wanted from Pippin? What else did Saruman's captive have that Sauron would want immediately?

[Raynor]

I was referring to Frodo's inner strength, not to his phisical characteristics. He was able do resist the witch-king quite well. Gandalf says that those with a will of adamant can resist the lure of the palantir towards Barad-dur; Aragorn is able to resist Sauron in his wrestle through the palantir, and, according to the source quoted above, the witch-king had more fear of Frodo than of Aragorn. All the while, Pippin falls like a deck of cards.

[Boromir88]

If that's the case, would Sauron think that a hobbit could seriously contend with his own will?

All the while, Pippin falls like a deck of cards.

We actually don't see the effects looking into the palantir and the mind to mind transfer Pippin had with Sauron until after the fact. Pippin seems fairly composed when he gets Sauron's message, although he is filled with fear, he is able to remember what Sauron told him to say and he does answer Sauron's question of who he is. He doesn't show the effects until after the use of the Palantir.

Aragorn is able to resist Sauron in his wrestle through the palantir

Comparing Aragorn's will and ability to wrestle away control from Sauron through the palantir to Pippin's use of it just isn't fair. Aragorn was 1. the rightful user of the Palantir and 2. the farther away the palantir is from Barad-dur the weaker Sauron's will is.

Gandalf says that those with a will of adamant can resist the lure of the palantir towards Barad-dur

I don't think Frodo had such a will. Frodo put on the Ring several times (which seems to me that he didn't have a will of adamant since he couldn't resist the desire to put on the ring). So he very well could have found an urge to look into the palantir had he ever come across one. If we are to even take Gandalf's words as truth, did Frodo have such a will that he could resist any sort of urges? I doubt it, as again he did put on the Ring on several occasions, but more importantly did Sauron believe it?

and, according to the source quoted above, the witch-king had more fear of Frodo than of Aragorn.

Your mis-use of the quote is simply astounding. It doesn't say the Witch-King feared Frodo, because he was Frodo. The Witch-King feared Frodo because Frodo had a blade that could essentially destroy him:

Escaping a wound that would have been as deadly to him as the Mordor -knife to Frodo (as was proved at the end), he withdrew and hid for a while, out of doubt and fear both of Aragorn and especially of Frodo. But fear of Sauron , and the forces of Sauron's will was the stronger.

The Witch-King didn't fear Frodo because he felt intimidated by Frodo's physical traits, or any other reason other than the fact that Frodo carried a blade that could cause his end, and indeed did end up causing his end.

[Raynor]

If that's the case, would Sauron think that a hobbit could seriously contend with his own will?

From the report of the witch-king, I would expect that he did.

Pippin seems fairly composed when he gets Sauron's message

Sauron caused him to suffer cruely, so that he felt he was falling to pieces, and I believe he was aware of his effect on the hobbit.

he is able to remember what Sauron told him to say

I think it would be fair to say that he was almost brainwashed by Sauron, seeing his reactions afterwards; he repeats his words like a puppet.

he does answer Sauron's question of who he is.

After he was "hurt terribly".

Comparing Aragorn's will and ability to wrestle away control from Sauron through the palantir to Pippin's use of it just isn't fair. Aragorn was 1. the rightful user of the Palantir and 2. the farther away the palantir is from Barad-dur the weaker Sauron's will is.

2. cuts both ways. You are correct about 1., but it seems that Gandalf believes that others too can master the palantir to a certain extant, as referred to above.

I don't think Frodo had such a will. Frodo put on the Ring several times (which seems to me that he didn't have a will of adamant since he couldn't resist the desire to put on the ring).

We should note that, even if Frodo did have his failings concerning the ring, Tolkien noted in letter #192:

Frodo deserved all honour because he spent every drop of his power of will and body, and that was just sufficient to bring him to the destined point, and no further. Few others, possibly no others of his time, would have got so far.

So he very well could have found an urge to look into the palantir had he ever come across one

My point wasn't about resisting the urge to use the palantir, but to resist the lure towards Barad-dur once the palantir was used.

The Witch-King didn't fear Frodo because he felt intimidated by Frodo's physical traits,

Again, when did I make such an argument? It is twice you are presuming this on my behalf.

Your mis-use of the quote is simply astounding.

I would appreciate it if you would be kinder in your remarks.

or any other reason other than the fact that Frodo carried a blade that could cause his end, and indeed did end up causing his end.

I don't think it is right to disregard other referrences in that quote:

But above all the timid and terrified Beared had resisted him, had dared to strike at him with an enchanted swords made by his own enemies long ago for his destruction. Narrowly it had missed him. How he had come by it - save in the barrows of Cardolan. Then he was in some way mightier than the barrow wight; and he called on Elbereth, a name of terror to the nazgul. He was then in league with the High Elves of the Havens.

Simple ownership of the blade wasn't sufficient; a powerful weapon in and of itself, isn't necessarily a deterrent. Frodo proved other qualities that earned the fear of the witch-king.

[Boromir88]

I'll first start here:

I would appreciate it if you would be kinder in your remarks.

That I do apologize for, it looks harsh and I should have used better wording. From the post before it looked like your argument was that Frodo was stronger (as far as will went) than Aragorn because the Witch-King feared him more than Aragorn. But, I don't think that's what UT was implying because the Witch-King wasn't afraid of Frodo's strength he mustered up. He did figure that Frodo had to be strong enough to get past the Barrow-wights and have the sword of the Westernesse. Also was taken back by Frodo striking at him and that he had called upon Elbereth...but he wasn't afraid of Frodo because he was comparable to Aragorn, or greater than Aragorn. He was afraid of Frodo because of what Frodo possessed (a blade that could kill him) and he used the name of Elbereth. (For which instead of looking in my book I went to a quick reference and missed the rest of it).

I think also it still shows Frodo was terrified of the Witch-King (and this can be supported from the encounter in LOTR)...but the Witch-King was just taken back by Frodo striking at him (and other factors). Frodo acted like a person stuck in a corner...he was still scared out of his boots (err...feet), but he was backed into a situation where he had to lash out...out of fear:

Terror overcame Pippin and Merry, and they threw themselves flat on the ground. Sam shrank to Frodo's side. Frodo was hardly less terrified than his companions; he was quaking as if he was bitter cold, but his terror was swallowed up in a sudden temptation to put on the Ring....
At that moment Frodo threw himself forward on the ground, and he heard himself crying aloud: O Elbereth! Gilthoniel! At the same time he struck at the feet of his enemy.~A Knife in the Dark

I'm not arguing that Pippin had a stronger will than Frodo's, as you show, what Frodo accomplished probably could not have been by anyone else during this time. But I don't see how Sauron would know based upon strength of will that it wasn't Frodo on the other side of the palantir, even had the Witch-King told him the full account. Because:

1. Frodo was still terrified of the Witch-King.
2. I don't think it's reasonable to think that since this encounter and the Witch-King was scared by the events that took place, Sauron would believe any hobbit would be able to contend with his will. Whether it was a hobbit who was able to survive the Barrow-wight and resist the Witch-King or not, neither of them are Sauron. Sauron didn't seem to fear too many things other than someone possibly getting the Ring and challenging him.

Sauron caused him to suffer cruely, so that he felt he was falling to pieces, and I believe he was aware of his effect on the hobbit.

Sauron could probably see Pippin was quite terrified by him, but again Frodo was terrified of the Witch-King. Why would Sauron believe that since this hobbit was scared out of his mind it couldn't have been the Ringbearer then?

My point wasn't about resisting the urge to use the palantir, but to resist the lure towards Barad-dur once the palantir was used.

Why would Frodo be able to resist the pull to Barad-dur? He put on the Ring several times. Frodo had shown that he did not have the will to resist the Ring's pull and the Ring was nearly revealed to Sauron because of Frodo (putting it on to escape Boromir):

'The Ring now has passed beyond my help, or the help of any of the Company that set out from Rivendell. Very nearly it was revealed to the Enemy, but it escaped. I had some part in that..'.~The White Rider

The two powers strove in him. For a moment, perfectly balanced between the piercing points, he writhed, tormented. Suddenly he was aware of himself again. Frodo, neither the Voice nor the Eye: free to choose, and with one remaining instant in which to do so. He took the Ring off his finger.~Breaking of the Fellowship

Knowing this, why would Frodo have the will to resist the pull to Barad-dur (through the Palantir), he didn't have the will to resist the Ring's pull to Sauron. And even if he did, what would make Sauron believe that he could do such a thing?

Sauce pan: In any event, no one asserting that Sauron did not believe Pippin to be the Ringbearer has put forward any convincing explanation as to why Sauron (to Gandalf's mind) would be so obsessed with this Hobbit and why he would want him so urgently, if not only for information.

I think this still remains unadressed. Also, to add, I haven't seen other suggestions as far as what is it that Sauron believed Saruman had (that wasn't his to have) and a Nazgul was coming to get immediately.

[Raynor]

I don't think it's reasonable to think that since this encounter and the Witch-King was scared by the events that took place, Sauron would believe any hobbit would be able to contend with his will.

Well, this would imply that Sauron thought the ring passed from one hobbit to another; I don't think that he has reasons to believe that. As far as he is concerned, the ringbearer survived from one attack to another and was still carrying the ring.

Sauron could probably see Pippin was quite terrified by him, but again Frodo was terrified of the Witch-King. Why would Sauron believe that since this hobbit was scared out of his mind it couldn't have been the Ringbearer then?

I believe it was more than fear: Sauron actually controlled Pippin through the palantir. Would he expected Frodo to be as easily bent to his will? Imo, if he trusted witch-king's report - no.

He put on the Ring several times. Frodo had shown that he did not have the will to resist the Ring's pull and the Ring was nearly revealed to Sauron because of Frodo (putting it on to escape Boromir)

I don't think that that this second part of your argument is related to the first one, since, in this case, Frodo didn't put on the ring out of weakness, but of necessity.

Knowing this, why would Frodo have the will to resist the pull to Barad-dur (through the Palantir), he didn't have the will to resist the Ring's pull to Sauron.

As a matter of personal opinion, it is easier for Sauron to control someone who has the ring, even if from afar, than to control someone through the palantir. It seems to me that our debate on Frodo and Pippin has moved this thread away from other members' interest, perhaps we could continue this on another thread.

Sauce pan: In any event, no one asserting that Sauron did not believe Pippin to be the Ringbearer has put forward any convincing explanation as to why Sauron (to Gandalf's mind) would be so obsessed with this Hobbit and why he would want him so urgently, if not only for information.

We know that Sauron was already obssessed with the ring; I don't think it is unreasonable for him to extend that to matters related to recovering the ring.

Also, to add, I haven't seen other suggestions as far as what is it that Sauron believed Saruman had (that wasn't his to have) and a Nazgul was coming to get immediately.

I expressed my opinion, in post #56, that:
In Unfinished Tales, The hunt for the ring, it is stated that Sauron was in great haste and fear when he heard that his enemies have captured Gollum. Apparently, he fears for anyone who has access to those with relevant information about the ring. Sure, he wants information for himself, but he also wants to hold off others from obtaining that information. I think that in this "others" we can safely include Saruman, of whom Sauron became aware that his servants waylaid or misled his own agents.
IIRC, in the Reader's Companion, Sauron was displeased at the witch-king's bringing his enemies closer to the ring, so this was becoming an increasing concern for him. To address your reply to my post:

he actually believed he (or Saruman) had something else of importance that wasn't Saruman's to have.

I don't think that we have already established that. If anything, neither Sauron nor Gandalf make _any_ referrence to the ring.

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Raynor

If anything, neither Sauron nor Gandalf make _any_ referrence to the ring.

That depends upon what construction you put on Sauron's use of the word "it" when addressing Pippin. The logical construction or the illogical one.

As for the other strand of this debate, I really don't think that there is any solid basis for assuming that Sauron was able in this encounter sufficiently to assess the Hobbit's physical and mental characteristics so as to distinguish him from another Hobbit. Sauron was indifferent to Hobbits, save on the subject of the Ring. His only interest in them arose from his knowledge that one of them bore his Ring.

If we are to believe Gandalf, we know that Sauron wanted this Hobbit for more than just information. Had he believed Pippin not to be the Ringbearer, then surely his only interest in him would have been his information value. Yet Gandalf believed that he wanted this Hobbit urgently, was obsessed with this Hobbit, and not just for information.

Had Sauron realised that Pippin was not the Ringbearer, he would have questioned him there and then as to the location and situation of the Ringebearer. He did not, because he made an erroneous assumption. An error that he would, Gandalf believed, take some time in discovering.

And just to stick up for Pippin for a moment, it is to his credit that he did not spill the beans there and then to Sauron. Knowing that Sauron wanted the Ring, and being subject to the will of Sauron during the encounter, he did pretty well to avoid doing so.

[Raynor]

The logical construction or the illogical one.

I am glad you are finally admitting being wrong

Had he believed Pippin not to be the Ringbearer, then surely his only interest in him would have been his information value. Yet Gandalf believed that he wanted this Hobbit urgently, was obsessed with this Hobbit, and not just for information.

Ok. What do you think about my argument that he also didn't want others to access that information? His warning to Saruman seems to follow that line. And perhaps this has been argued before, but I don't think he would refer to the most powerful object on Middle Earth as a dainty.

Had Sauron realised that Pippin was not the Ringbearer, he would have questioned him there and then as to the location and situation of the Ringebearer.

Yes, but that would have exposed that information to Saruman too. Why give him the benefit of his power?

And just to stick up for Pippin for a moment, it is to his credit that he did not spill the beans there and then to Sauron. Knowing that Sauron wanted the Ring, and being subject to the will of Sauron during the encounter, he did pretty well to avoid doing so.

I don't think it has anything to do with Pippin; it was all down to Sauron's fancy. Pippin lost all control on what to say or not; if Sauron wanted him to reveal something, he would have said so, on the spot.

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Raynor

Yes, but that would have exposed that information to Saruman too. Why give him the benefit of his power?

I was rather of the impression that the conversation was not one that others present would necessarily be able to hear.

Originally Posted by Raynor

I don't think it has anything to do with Pippin; it was all down to Sauron's fancy.

Under pressure from one of the most powerful beings in Middle-earth, Pippin could have blurted out everything he knew to make the eye and the voice go away. He did not.

Originally Posted by Raynor

... if Sauron wanted him to reveal something, he would have said so, on the spot.

Precisely. Given how important finding the Ring was to Sauron, don't you think that, if he did not believe this Hobbit to be the Ringbearer, he would have asked straight away about the Ring?

[Boromir88]

Yes, but that would have exposed that information to Saruman too. Why give him the benefit of his power?~Raynor

I've never heard that before, but it certainly makes sense to me. If Sauron's number 1 concern was getting the Ring back, I would guess his second concern was others falling on information about the Ring...especially someone like Saruman. So, are you arguing that 'dainty' and 'it' are not necessarily referring to Pippin himself, but information about the Ring that Pippin has and then could reveal to Saruman (or others)...which would cause just a little doubt and fear in Sauron? If so, that's an interesting spin on things and never heard it before (that's a good thing) and I can see it making sense.

As you say, Sauron would not want others to get any information about the Ring. If he believes Pippin has this information he will not only be useful for information, but Sauron would want him immediately so he didn't give any away to Saruman (or anyone else for that matter). I'll say if (because I still think he believed Pippin had the ring...which I will get to shortly), but if Sauron believed Pippin didn't have the Ring than it would still make sense.

Sauron began getting worried about Saruman and was wondering what he was sticking his hands in. If Sauron believed Pippin didn't have the Ring he would have to figure Saruman would figure this out (if he hadn't already). Then Saruman would begin to question Pippin the whereabouts of the Ring and this would fall under great concern from Sauron. So, I think that's a reasonable explanation, that Sauron didn't just want information from Pippin, he wanted to make sure that information didn't get into anyone's hands but his own.

Precisely. Given how important finding the Ring was to Sauron, don't you think that, if he did not believe this Hobbit to be the Ringbearer, he would have asked straight away about the Ring?~Sauce

Good point...from what Gandalf says:

"You have been saved, and all your friends too, mainly by good fortune, as it is called. You cannot count on it a second time. If he had questioned you, then and there, almost certainly you would have told all that you know, to the ruin of us all. But, he was too eager. He did not want information only: he wanted you, quickly, so that he could deal with you in the Dark Tower, slowly."

This should support Raynor's valid point that it really wasn't a matter that Pippin resisted telling Sauron information...but it was a matter of time. Pippin had escaped just in time, but there is certainly no doubt in Gandalf (nor me) had Pippin been questioned about the Ring he would have spilled the beans.

Though I think that Gandalf believed Sauron thought Pippin had the Ring and he was going to use this to their advantage. As he puts it:

'Not yet,' said Gandalf. 'There remains a short while of doubt, which we must use. The Enemy, it is clear, thought that the Stone was in Orthanc - why should he not? And that therefore the hobbit was captive there, driven to look in the glass for his torment by Saruman.'

I think that sentence bolded above is interesting. At least Gandalf believes Sauron is facing some doubt right now (and I would agree with Gandalf here). Sauron was in doubt, about what? The ring? I think so, we know for sure that Sauron believed (though it wasn't true) that the stone was in Orthanc and Pippin was captive there...he did not doubt that he was just wrong. So, what is it that Gandalf believed Sauron did doubt? It would either be, does this hobbit have my ring? or as Raynor argues thinking that others will come across important information on where it is, (which would also fill him with doubt) Pippin got away at the 'fortunate' time as Sauron's head must be spinning after this point. And I think he would even be filled with more doubt once Aragorn reveals himself in the palantir. This causes Sauron to attack at Gondor sooner than he had hoped for, before his full strength was mustered.

[Raynor]

I was rather of the impression that the conversation was not one that others present would necessarily be able to hear.

You may be right that Saruman can't listen to their mind to mind conversation over the palantir, however, we should note that in the text it is said: "his lips moved soundlessly for a while". I think it is reasonable to believe that poor Pippin was lip-synching to the messages he transmited to Sauron.

Given how important finding the Ring was to Sauron, don't you think that, if he did not believe this Hobbit to be the Ringbearer, he would have asked straight away about the Ring?

This may be explained by the above issue.

Under pressure from one of the most powerful beings in Middle-earth, Pippin could have blurted out everything he knew to make the eye and the voice go away. He did not.

As I argued previously, what he did or did not say was stricly in relation to what Sauron asked. I opine that his free will was suspended in that conversation.

Edit:
Cross-posted with Boromir88:
You raise an interesting point: indeed, it would be foolish for Saruman to show the hobbit just to tease, if he didn't already have the ring. Then again, it may be that Gandalf left out the possibility of Saruman "trading" the hobbit, even though without the ring, only with information.

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Raynor

I think it is reasonable to believe that poor Pippin was lip-synching to the messages he transmited to Sauron.

So now Saruman is an expert lip-reader too ...?

I am sure that even Sauron would have acknowledged that Saruman was quite capable himself of extracting such information as Pippin had. If he had thought that Pippin did not have the Ring, but information only, I am sure that he would not have hesitated to ask of the Ring's whereabouts, particularly as the more logical assumption would be that Saruman had already extracted this information.

Originally Posted by Raynor

Then again, it may be that Gandalf left out the possibility of Saruman "trading" the hobbit, even though without the ring, only with information.

So Gandalf is fallible, then?

If we are assuming that Gandalf's has got it right, then it is clear that Sauron was incredibly eager to get hold of Pippin, and not just for information. I really cannot see any reason for Sauron's eagereness, bordering on obsession, in this regard if he did not think that Pippin had the Ring.

If we are to believe that perhaps Gandalf got it wrong, then it all comes down to your interpretation of the words "it" and "dainty", as used by Sauron.

OK, I'm all argued out on this point, and merely repeating myself. All I really add is that, whenever I have read this passage, I have always interpreted the references to "it" and "dainty" to mean the Ring, and therefore that Sauron mistook Pippin for the Ringbearer. I am not about to change that long-held view without very clear evidence, which has not been forthcoming thus far.

[Boromir88]

The only thing I can reach is that Sauron was as confused as we are. Well, at least we got some ideas, but from what's given I don't know if anything can be 'proven,' beyond the importance of the bigger picture:

Because of Pippin's timely exit from the Palantir Sauron was left in doubt...who has the Ring? Where is the Ring? What are my enemies planning? Do they know something I don't? What are they planning on doing with the Ring? Or if he believed Pippin had the Ring...what is Saruman planning on doing? This only increases when Aragorn reveals himself in the palantir causing Sauron to act more quickly than he had wanted to...because Sauron's got some doubt, and Gandalf thinks it will take him a while to figure out what they are planning, so Gandalf will use that time to his advantage.

[Rhod the Red]

"As I argued previously, what he did or did not say was stricly in relation to what Sauron asked. I opine that his free will was suspended in that conversation."

Didn't Pippin refuse to give his name? You sure you read the book as well as the note you bring up all the time?

[Raynor]

Didn't Pippin refuse to give his name?

I acknowledge an initial reluctance on behalf of Pippin, whether willed or not. However, that was quickly overcome seeing that Sauron could command him.

[Rhod the Red]

"However, that was quickly overcome seeing that Sauron could command him."

And you establish that also by fiat?

[Raynor]

Rhod the Red, if you find that Pippin crying out Sauron's words in "a shrill and toneless voice" is a testimony to his free will, you are free to do so. Gandalf states that almost certainly Pippin would have divulged all that he knew, to the ruin of them all, if Sauron would have questioned him.

[Rhod the Red]

Yes I know, that has two meanings. Like the effect of Sauron's will is immediate, or delayed. One can take their pick.

[Raynor]

Like the effect of Sauron's will is immediate, or delayed.

The fact that Pippin follows Sauron's command even after the conversation stops it only another proof of Sauron's domination over the hobbit, not the other way around. I must say I find this nitpicking rather pointless. Unless something more substantial shows up, I see no further need to participate in this thread.