Did Saruman Believe He Could Master The One Ring?

[Sardy]

Did Saruman Believe He Could Master The One Ring? Surely, as his "specialty" and area of study was ring-lore, he, perhaps moreso than anyone else, would have nowledge of the ring's abilty to bend the will of its user to its master... Did Saruman realize this, in his pursuit of the Ring? Or, was he arrogant enough to believe that he could bend the Ring's will to is own?

Or, a third alternative: Did Saruman intend to "dissect" the Ring in order to use the knowledge of it to forge a new ring of his own creation?

[MatthewM]

I believe that Saruman was so obsessed with gaining power and had dropped so much from the original cause of the Istari that he did think if he attained the One Ring he could master it for his own.

[Gil-Galad]

He was entranced with power like the old Maiar that became the Balrogs and other demons of Melkor.

Remember, Sauron was a Maiar. Saruman was a Maiar. if Sauron could be pulled to the power of the ring then what is stopping other Maiar like him?

[the phantom]

Let's bring this to the real world- do you personally believe the Ring would master you?

Oh sure, most people's first reaction is to exclaim "Yes, of course!" because you've been taught to say so. Gandalf, Elrond, Galadriel, and all those other smart people said the Ring would master everyone, and the story revolves around the undefeatable and unconquerable Ring. It's just accepted as fact. But really, who did the Ring conquer? Answer- two little hobbits. Some of you may want to toss in Isildur, but he died so quickly after swiping it. Do we really know what would've happened to him?

Do we know for an absolute fact that the Ring would turn Gandalf into a Dark Lord? He said it, but if you've read LOTR you know that Gandalf was not always right. Had he done experiments with the Ring? Had he tested it on other wizards and watched them turn into Dark Lords? No, of course not.

The whole "The Ring corrupts everyone" thing is not an absolute total unquestionable fact within Middle Earth.

Now seriously, I want you to imagine in real life- if someone had a shoe and claimed that the evil that dwelt in it would overcome your mind and will would you really believe it? Let's say you knew it had overthrown the minds of a couple of your friends. Even then, would you really believe that the shoe could master YOU?

If your answer is "yes", then I guess you're just not like me. I remember talking in another thread about how I identified with Boromir, because like him I would not have believed that the Ring could conquer me. I am who I am. No piece of jewelry can change me. Give the Ring to me, and I'll harness it's power and kick Sauron's behind!

Personally, I think it takes a very very rare person to believe that he doesn't have the strength of will to conquer a small piece of metal. Evidently I don't have that type of wisdom, and certainly not that much humility. Lucky for the good guys in LOTR, there were several of these rare weirdo individuals running around.

Now to Saruman- who does he strike you as? A confident-borderline-arrogant Boromir/Phantom type person, or a humble Gandalf/Frodo sort of chap? (btw, if it matters yours truly came up as "Saruman" on a LOTR personality test a while back )

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

Hmmmm....a trickier question than it looks. The obvious answer is "yes, of course Saruman thought he could master it? Why else would he have sought it out?" But then another thought occurs to me -- he probably really could have "mastered" it insofar as he could have taken it and used its power to throw down Sauron and set himself up in the Dark Lord's place. Of course, he would then himself have been "mastered" by the Ring insofar as he would have become the new Dark Lord, but even that is really being self-mastered insofar as it was his own selfish desire to be a Power that would have led him to take the Ring in the first place...

So was Saruman really all that wrong in his assumption that he could master the Ring? Galadriel and Gandalf both say tha they could take the Ring and use it to defeat Sauron (not what Sauron would want, so clearly they are saying they can take the Ring 'away' from his will) -- I account that a form of mastery. Of course, they also argue that the Ring would pervert and twist them into figures of corruption and evil, but they also state that it would have worked on their own desires to do this -- so once more, it was their own innermost desires and flaws that would have overmastered them, not really the Ring.

(Is this why Bombadil was immune to the Ring? He was so pure, so entirely devoide of desire for control or sway that it had nothing to work on? That is why Bombadil describes himself as "Master" -- because he is his own Master?)

So, I guess I stick with the obvious answer, but in a more complicated way: Yes, Saruman thought he could master the Ring, because he could master it; that is, he could wrench it from Sauron's control and use it to overthrow the Dark Lord. But then he would have been mastered by himself, at the Ring's prompting...

[Boromir88]

phantom it's good to see ya back here for a little bit. I seriously was beginning to go through withdrawal.

I like the angle you approach this from. I'll still take Gandalf's advice in that over time the Ring would dominate and control you...aye even Tolkien said that in the one moment before the Cracks of Doom, the Ring's influence is at it's greatest and no one had the strength of will to resist it. But, I like the alternative perspective you have created, it was interesting and insightful to read.

Of course the Ring isn't this all corrupting force, if someone had the right mindset, and perhaps knew more about the Ring, they would be able to at least resist and hold off it's proddings for a while (I think that Boromir did this for a rather long period of time). Also another question is whether the Ring would really want to be in the possession of that individual. For example, what would the Ring want to do in the possession of a fox for? How is that going to help it achieve it's goal? How will that help Sauron? So, also I think there is a certain selectiveness about the Ring, it goes after the individuals it feels it can get a grasp over (Boromir and Gollum for example).

Now onto Saruman...ahh Saruman a truly interesting villain he is.

Did Saruman Believe He Could Master The One Ring?

I'd say so:

"We may join with that Power. It would be wise, Gandalf. There is hope that way. Its victory is at hand; and there will be rich reward for those that aided it. As the Power grows, its proved friends will also grow; and the Wise, such as you and I, may with patience come at last to direct its courses, to control it. We can bid our time, we can keep our thoughts in our hearts, deploring maybe evils done by the way, but approving the high and ultimate purpose: Knowledge, Rule, Order; all the things that we have so far striven in vain to accomplish, hindered rather than helped by our weak or idle friends. There need not be, there would not be any real change in our designs, only in our means."
[...]
"And why not Gandalf?" he whispered. "Why not? The Ruling Ring? If we could cammand that then the Power would pass to us...~The Council of Elrond

Saruman really started this process of wanting to 'ape' Sauron, he wanted in essense to be Sauron...and be the knew 'Ruler.' He wanted the power and Sauron knew what Saruman was up to:

But they shall help to rebuild Isengard which they have wantonly destroyed, and that shall be Sauron's, and there his lieutenant shall dwell: not Saruman, but one more worthy of trust.~The Black Gate Opens

Or, a third alternative: Did Saruman intend to "dissect" the Ring in order to use the knowledge of it to forge a new ring of his own creation?

That may also be a possibility. Certainly I think if Saruman was unable to actually get possession of the Ring he was attempting to create his own ring of power:

He wore a ring on his finger and it was at one time rumoured that he had come near the secret of their making~Home VII: Treason of Isengard

The problem with this quote is that, in the final publication of LOTR, only 'He wore a ring on his finger' is written, the rest of it Tolkien removed, as the Treason of Isengard was an earlier draft. But, also this appears in The Foreward of LOTR:

The real war does not resemble the legendary war in its process or its conclusion. If it had inspired or directed the development of the legend, then certainly the Ring would have been seized and used against Sauron; he would not have been annihilated but enslaved, and Barad-dur would not have been destroyed but occupied. Saruman, failing to get possession of the Ring, would in the confusion and treacheries of the time have found in Mordor the missing links in his own researches into Ring-lore, and before long he would have made a Great Ring of his own with which to challenge the self-styled Ruler of Middle-earth.

Now, this is Tolkien explaining why he didn't feel like the War in LOTR, was like any of the 'Real Wars,' but if we take this 'if it was like the real wars scenario' than we can see that Saruman was studying into ring-lore and was trying to figure out how to create his own ring of power. But, he had some 'missing links in his study' and supposedly only Mordor held those missing links to Saruman creating a true Ring of Power...as in one that could be like Sauron's.

[Mithadan]

I agree that there is no doubt Saruman thought he could master the Ring. A related question is could he have mastered it and how fast? Clearly Sauron was not alarmed when he believed that Saruman had secured the Ring. Look at his response when Pippin is revealed in the Palantir:

Tell Saruman this dainty is notfor him. I will send for it at once.

And then, of all things, Sauron laughs! He was not truly alarmed! Sauron clearly believed that Saruman could not claim the Ring for himself and control it, at least not quickly. To recover it, he sent one Nazgul. Although Gandalf believed that Saruman and Orthanc might have the power to resist a Nazgul, Sauron seemed to think a Nazgul was enough to coerce Saruman with the Ring!

The answer here seems to rest in the fact that it would take time to learn to use the Ring. I am trying unsuccessfully to find the reference but am unable to. Somewhere, Gandalf states that after Frodo claimed the Ring in the Cracks of Doom, if it had not been destroyed the Nazgul would likely have feigned obeiscence to Frodo only to later seize the Ring or bring Frodo to Sauron. Frodo could not learn to control the Ring rapidly. Even Saruman would need some time to learn the use and secrets of the Ring. But what of the principle of the Ring giving its wearer power in proportion to the wearer's stature? If this is the case, Saruman's power with the Ring, particularly given his study of the matter, should have given him significant power. There seems to be a disconnect here. Shouldn't Sauron have been much more concerned?

[Mister Underhill]

I interpret the "dainty" line to mean the Hobbit, himself, not the Ring. Saruman, a former confidant of Gandalf and the White Council with some insight into their mindset and methods, might have some inkling that a Hobbit of the Fellowship would bear the Ring and thus have some hope of capturing the Ring-bearer with his raiding party. Sauron, on the other hand, knowing that the Ring had almost certainly reached Rivendell, would be likely to presume that someone there -- Gandalf or Elrond, probably -- had taken possession of it. Still, there's nothing like a long, slow "discussion" with a Hobbit who might have inside info, perhaps followed by nice dinner with your special guest (simmered in butter and seasoned, mayhap).

[Mithadan]

Then why refer to the "dainty" as "it"?

[Mister Underhill]

The same dehumanizing impulse that leads the predator to view his prey as an "it", the way Gollum does with Bilbo: "Is it nice, my preciousss? Is it juicy? Is it scrumptiously crunchable?"

[Mithadan]

OK let's review what Sauron knew and what Tolkien, directly or indirectly, implies.

Sauron knew the Ring, carried by Frodo, reached Rivendell. He probably knew through spies that Frodo did not return to the Shire, though this is speculation. He knows Gandalf reached Caradhras after Gandalf conjures a fire. He knows a group passes through Moria and that the group includes Hobbits because the Orcs of Moria, whether they were free agents or not (unlikely) would pass this information on to the Mordor Orcs. He knows the Fellowship reaches Lorien. He is actively hunting for it when the Fellowship leaves and his Orcs have specific instructions to capture and not loot Hobbits. Grishnakh apparently knows about the Ring and tries to find it on Merry and Pippin. Sauron at the very least suspected that Frodo was still bearing the Ring.

Now, what does Tolkien imply? He makes much of the fact that Pippin revealed he was a Hobbit but not his name and was not questioned by Sauron about the Fellowship or the location of the Ring. Sauron was so excited he forgot to ask these questions. So excited about a Hobbit? No. He thought Saruman had found the Ring. He was sending for "it". He likely assumed that Saruman was revealing to him that he had captured the Ring a Hobbit (Frodo) by torturing him and forcing him to face the Red Eye. Or He may have believed Saruman was merely having some fun with his prisoner. I would be willing to reach and accept the concept that Sauron may have believed Saruman was still loyal, though I doubt Sauron would so lack the signature paranoia of dictators. This could explain why he sent only one Nazgul. But I am convinced that Sauron thought Saruman had the Ring.

[Boromir88]

I can see Mr. Underhill's side of the argument. If we look at the quote in full:

'Then suddenly he seemed to see me, and he laughed at me. It was cruel. It was like being stabbed with knives. I struggled. But he said: "Wait a moment! We shall meet again soon. Tell Saruman that this dainty is not for him. I will send for it at once. Do you understand? Say just that!"~The Palantir

Before this moment Pippin tells Sauron that he's a Hobbit. What's interesting is that I don't think Sauron ever seen a Hobbit before this...he hadn't even heard of them until Gollum mentioned them. So, when Sauron comes to see Pippin, he's taken back and laughs. Then after he has his laughs for a while...Wait a moment! (something just came to him that is important) We shall meet again soon.. Sauron sees there is some importance that he might beable to get from this 'hobbit.'

I can further understand Mr. Underhill's argument as Sauron referring to Pippin as 'dainty' (something delectable, delicate...etc) and further dehumanizing him referring to Pippin as 'it,' because when Sauron first sees a hobbit he is filled with laughter...as in 'How is this pathetic creature going to harm me.'

Also, when Pippin is first recovering from the encounter with Sauron he mistakes Gandalf for Saruman:

'It is not for you, Saruman!' he cried in a shrill and toneless voice,' shrinking away from Gandalf. 'I will send for it at once. Do you understand? Say just that!'~Voice of Saruman

Pippin mistakes Gandalf for Saruman and shrinks away from him. Now Pippin is in a state of shock at this time, but either:

1) Sauron convinced Pippin that he had something valuable Sauron wanted (and hence Saruman had).

2) Pippin was reacting to what Sauron told him, and shrinks away from Saruman (well whom he believes to be Saruman), and reiterates Sauron's words 'It (or Pippin/he) is not for you, Saruman!'
Mithadan, if we take into account that he only wanted to send one Nazgul to go to Isengard, than I don't think Sauron thought he was going to get the Ring. You may be right, maybe Sauron did not know at this time that Saruman had planned to betray him (eventhough if Grishnakh did say 'Saruman is a fool: a dirty, treacerous fool, but the Eye is on him.'...there still could be some question as to whether Sauron knew what Saruman's plans were at this time. Though Sauron was definitely distrustful of him by this time, when he encounters Pippin in the Palantir). I would think though that if Sauron believed Pippin had the Ring...therefor Saruman had it, wouldn't it be more important to Sauron than just sending one Nazgul? I mean all 9 of them together failed to get the Ring, so I don't know how much faith Sauron would have in sending just one Nazgul into Isengard to get the Ring.

I guess another possibility could be that Sauron believed Saruman had the Ring, and since he had the Hobbit with him, it would prove useful to get both of them (maybe for information as far as what the 'West' was planning?) But, still I think if Sauron believed Saruman had a ring the situation would be more urgent than merely sending 1 Nazgul to go get it...even if Sauron believed Saruman was still his 'servant.'

[the phantom]

I think Sauron only sent one Nazgul because that Nazgul was the closest one. Sure, he could've gathered them all together and sent them in force, but why wait? His precious, his key to absolute victory, was within his grasp! Send for it immediately!

And if Saruman tries to keep it, then you know where he stands and you go in force to grab it from him.

And do you really think "this dainty" refers to Pippin? I'm having trouble seeing it. I'm just thinking it would've been written different if that was the case. The quote-

Tell Saruman this dainty is not for him. I will send for it at once.

So, Pip was seriously supposed to turn to Saruman and refer to himself as "this dainty"? I don't think so. When he says to Gandalf (mistaking him for Saruman) "It is not for you, Saruman!" why say "it" if he means "I'm"? If I was Saruman and Pip told me "it's not for you!" I certainly would not understand that "it" meant Pippin. That's an unclear message. A VERY unclear message. Do you think Sauron meant to send Saruman an unclear message? Nope.

And also, earlier in the Palantir conversation Sauron asked "Who are YOU" and after learning he was a halfling he said "WE shall meet again soon". I don't think Sauron was trying to dehumanize (dehobbitize?) Pip by making him an "it".

What is this whole thing about? The Ring. That's what Sauron wanted, that's what Saruman wanted, that's what they were looking for, and that's what they thought they would get by capturing the halfling.

It=Ring

Now, to Mithadan's point-

And then, of all things, Sauron laughs! He was not truly alarmed! Sauron clearly believed that Saruman could not claim the Ring for himself and control it

Bingo!

This is something that I always like to point out. Sauron was NOT scared by a Maia with his Ring, and that's all that matters. It doesn't matter if Gandalf or Saruman or Galadriel thought they could overthrow Sauron with the Ring, what matters is what Sauron thinks about it, for as the creator of the Ring he obviously knows best on Ring-related matters.
And in his mind, Saruman+Ring = little kid with stick.

[Mister Underhill]

Originally Posted by the phantom

So, Pip was seriously supposed to turn to Saruman and refer to himself as "this dainty"? I don't think so. When he says to Gandalf (mistaking him for Saruman) "It is not for you, Saruman!" why say "it" if he means "I'm"? If I was Saruman and Pip told me "it's not for you!" I certainly would not understand that "it" meant Pippin. That's an unclear message. A VERY unclear message. Do you think Sauron meant to send Saruman an unclear message? Nope.

And also, earlier in the Palantir conversation Sauron asked "Who are YOU" and after learning he was a halfling he said "WE shall meet again soon".

This is the most labored grammar-based argument I've seen since the last time the wings debate reared its head. Surely if Bilbo and Gollum can navigate Gollum's use of 'he', 'ye', and 'it' when referring to Bilbo, not to mention his unusual use of 'we' to refer to himself, Sauron and Saruman wouldn't be pulling a "Who's On First" routine via the palantir.

Nevertheless, Mith has an interesting point about the Mordor orcs. I'd forgotten about them. Did Sauron know that the Ring had entered Lorien? Didn't Haldir's boys wipe out the orc-band sent out of Moria after the Fellowship? This would certainly delay the news heading East, but I'm fuzzy on the timeline. More later if I have time to do some reading...

[Mithadan]

Let's try to add some flesh to the bones here by continuing with the "What did Sauron know" theme and adding "What did Sauron suspect"?

Sauron knows that the last person who definitely had the Ring was Frodo due to the escapade at the Prancing Pony and the incident at Weathertop. He knows Frodo got to Rivendell. At this point, perhaps he is concerned that Elrond will claim it. But months pass without any sign of this happening. He knows Gandalf was involved. Gandalf encountered the Nazgul on Weathertop. He learns Gandalf has left Rivendell and learns generally the composition of the Fellowship due to the events in Moria. So Elrond has not claimed the Ring and Gandalf is not touching it. A group is heading south accompanied by Gandalf. Hobbits are in the group. Sauron's reasoning probably is as follows.

Gandalf is afraid to claim the Ring and Elrond has rejected it. It is going South. To where? Gondor is the logical destination. The Ring is being concealed. A Hobbit had it. Hobbits are weak and allowing a Hobbit to bear the Ring would present the least threat to the West. So a bodyguard is provided for the Hobbit to assist him in bringing the Ring to Gondor.

The Orc raid on Amon Hen specifically targets Hobbits. If Sauron only wanted intelligence it would suffice to capture any member of the Fellowship, not just Hobbits. If he wanted a Hobbit just to "play" with, he could have gotten one from The Shire. Grishnakh knows about the Ring. Sauron clearly thinks the Ring has remained with Frodo. So when a Hobbit is apparently captured by Saruman and (to Sauron's mind) intentionally revealed to him through the Palantir the only logical conclusion is that Sauron believed Saruman had captured the Ring.

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

Interesting indeed....

Mith, your summary of what Sauron could or would reasonably know is compelling but I think there is a crucial point you are missing, and that is Sauron would easily have recognised that Pippin is not Frodo and therefore not the Ringbearer.

Remember, the Witch King stabbed Frodo at Weathertop when Frodo was wearing the Ring, and given the rather, shall we say, close relationship between the Nazgul and Sauron we can safely assume that the good, close-up look they got of Frodo there would have been transmitted to Sauron. It's also more than likely that they saw the other three hobbits as well (if not quite so well) and passed along those descriptions to him.

So when Sauron sees Pippin in the Palantir he would have known instantly that this particular hobbit is not the Ringbearer, thus Saruman has got the wrong hobbit -- hence the laugh perhaps? ("Stupid Sarumman! Wrong Halfling!") It is possible, I suppose, that Sauron would think that the Ring had been given to Pippin, but I find that hard to believe...I mean, if anyone is going to know how hard it would be for someone to give up the Ring it's going to be the Dark Lord. And besides, from his point of view, why bother getting Frodo to give up the Ring to another hobbit? One Halfling is pretty much the same as another (to him) and if the Ring is going to be given to someone else it would probably be (to Sauron's way of thinking) a person of Power who could use it against him.

I also find it hard to believe that Sauron could not instantly tell the difference between someone who had borne (and even worn) the Ring and someone who had not. The Ring has a terrible and marked presence and leaves its effect on any who take it, and Sauron would have to be able to see that. Gollum, having worn the Ring, feels the call of Sauron and goes to Mordor, and when he's captured he's not summarily killed but taken to Sauron and questioned by the Big Boss himself. Why would Sauron bother with such a pathetic thing if he wasn't able to see at a glance that Gollum was the product of his own Ring?

So when Sauron sees Pippin in the Palantir he sees not the Ringbearer, neither does he feel the effect nor the presence of the Ring. It might be that at this point he thinks that perhaps Saruman has more than one Halfling and that Frodo has been taken, but that's really speculating now -- and if this is the case, why would he not say "these dainties" or "they"? Unless, of course, "dainty" and "it" refer to the Ring, which -- as I say -- I don't think they do (for all of the above reasons).

I also don't see Sauron referring to his Ring as a "dainty" anything....

[Mister Underhill]

The orc-raid on Amon Hen was launched primarily by Saruman, though, no? I don't think you can assume that Saruman shared his intel with Sauron; on the contrary in this case. I'm thinking the Mordor orcs were vectored towards the Fellowship by the Nazgûl who Legolas shot down near the river. What's the word on the osanwé link between Sauron and his Nazgûl minions? Would he know what they know (or suspect) as soon as they know it, or do they have to be "within range"?

All this may be bunk. It begs the question of how a raiding party composed of Uruks, Moria, and Mordor orcs came to be formed.

EDIT: Cross-posted with Fordie, who makes some interesting points.

[the phantom]

You use good logic Fordim, but I'm not sure I'm willing to believe the whole concept of Sauron recognizing a Ring-bearer and being able to tell different hobbits apart.

In person, absolutely, you're right. But through the palantir....

Remember, at first Sauron thought he was talking to Saruman. That should be an obvious clue that Sauron couldn't tell a fellow Ring-bearer. I mean, he couldn't tell the difference between Saruman and Pippin!

I think the fact that the palantir was involved changes the situation.

This is the most labored grammar-based argument I've seen since the last time the the wings debate reared its head.

Well, thank you.

[Mister Underhill]

At your service!

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

Originally Posted by the phantom

Remember, at first Sauron thought he was talking to Saruman.

Yeah but he did then see that it was a Hobbit. (And when you pick up the phone you always know exactly who is on the other end of the line I suppose... And when your call display tells you that someone is calling you from your mother's phone, you pick it up and say "To whom am I speaking?" instead of "Hi Mom!") At which point -- knowing, as he does, that a Hobbit (Frodo) is bearing the Ring -- which do you think is the most likely thing to go through Sauron's mind:

1) "Hmmmm, a hobbit. I can't quite make out which one it may be. Perhaps its the Ringbearer. Perhaps it isn't. Oh well, never mind about that now, I'll send a Nazgul to fetch it and look into this later."

or

2) "Hey, a hobbit? Is it the Ringbearing one or not? Hmmmmmm....a bit taller than the one Witchie told me about....not quite so red in the cheeks....younger than Baggins.....no sign of the Ring on his finger or around his neck.....no sense of Ringiness here......nope, it's not Frodo Baggins. But he sure looks like a dainty fellow who could give me some good intel!"

Now I imagine someone is going to argue that the Palantir is somehow not a reliable source of information -- that it was impossible for Sauron to see clearly enough that he could differentiate between Pippin and Frodo. Tosh! In the other instances we have recorded of its use, it was a reliable source of information -- the only time it seems to obscure is when Sauron perverts or dominates it (like with Denethor).

[Mithadan]

I was actually going to bring up the very point that Sir Underhill did, poking a little hole in my own argument for the sake of debate. The room for interpretation is one of the things that make Tolkien's work so compelling. Underhill is quite right. We don't know which group of Orcs had orders to seize Hobbits and run. Presumably, Saruman and Sauron both knew the Ring entered Lorien. Both groups of Orcs were lying in wait. The Mordor Orcs on the east side of Anduin (remember them shooting arrows at the Fellowship as they passed?) and the Moria and Saruman Orcs on the west bank. Sauron's orders may have been "kill them all and bring the bodies home", we don't know.

This is a matter of readers' impressions. My impression was pretty much always been that Sauron thought Saruman had the Ring. Others' impressions differ. Absent an express statement on the issue, we can't know. If Tolkien had used a capital "I" in "it" we might know for certain. This isn't determinative. He might have missed or simply not used a capital "I" or an over-zealous editor might have changed it. Has anyone peeked at HoME on this issue? I don't have those volumes with me and really don't have the time to research.

[the phantom]

Think what you will about how much Sauron could see, Fordy, but it is a fact that Sauron's powers/abilities are lesser when using the palantir.

In letter 246 Tolkien says that Aragorn could not have withheld the Ring from Sauron if face to face, and continues on to explain how he was able to "win" the palantir contest despite that.

In the contest with the Palantir Aragorn was the rightful owner. Also the contest took place at a distance, and in a tale which allows the incarnation of great spirits in a physical and destructible form their power must be far greater when actually physically present.

Sauron wasn't the rightful owner, so he couldn't wield the palantir perfectly. And on top of that his powers, which would include powers of perception, were greatly dimmed by distance.

I think you should've just stuck with the phone analogy you were using at first. Do you think Sauron could've told the voices of Pippin and Frodo apart on the phone having never heard them before? And really, do you think he could've picked their faces out of a lineup? In person, yes, but just from a photo where there is no physical presence involved? I doubt it. The Nazgul weren't equipped with digital cameras as far as I know.

[Boromir88]

Ai! Ai! So tangling and messy.

I think Sauron only sent one Nazgul because that Nazgul was the closest one. Sure, he could've gathered them all together and sent them in force, but why wait? His precious, his key to absolute victory, was within his grasp! Send for it immediately!~tp

That still really doesn't make sense. Sauron may not have feared Saruman by using the ring mono-a-mono against him, but he definitely saw a weakness if somebody (especially somebody of significant power) got a hold of the Ring:

If that happened, the new possesor could (if sufficiently strong and heroic by nature) challenge Sauron, become master of all that he had learned or done sine the making of the One Ring, and so overthrow him and usurp his place. This was the essential weakness he had introduced into his situation in his effort (largely unsuccessful) to enslave the Elves, and in his desire to establish a control over the minds and wills of his servants.~Letter 131

Unless Sauron was brainless, it doesn't make a lot of sense. I don't think Sauron would have sent all his forces to Isengard, since he had other things to deal with (Gondor, Lorien, Mirkwood, Erebor...etc) but it was definitely clear Sauron had an overwhelming mass of forces at his disposal. Had the Ring not been destroyed, just the sheer numbers and force of Sauron's armies would have crushed those who opposed him.

Sauron had many armies at his disposal...and again taking into account that the Nine could not get the job done at getting the Ring when they had the chance. If Sauron believed that Saruman had the ring (somebody who had some power), I think it would be more important to him and getting that Ring than just sending one Nazgul.

There are two possibilities I think in only sending one Nazgul...

1) As Mithadan said, perhaps Sauron still felt like he had Saruman controlled and a faithful obedient servant. (However, as Grishnakh shows, Sauron had already begun to grow distrustful of Saruman...so I don't know if this would make sense).

2) He wanted the Hobbit to get as much information from him as possible, which wouldn't require all that much to get. Considering that if Isengard was still standing, Saruman would have soon come to realize this was the wrong hobbit, there wouldn't be much need of him, and probably would willlingly give him up to Sauron. (This is also though just a bunch of possibilities and speculation).

With the questions over the palantir. The palantiri could not be made to lie by anybody. So, they were definitely accurate and reliable sources of information. What Denethor saw in the palantir wasn't lies by Sauron, they were actually taking place...But since Denethor did not have the mind, or will, to contend with Sauron, Sauron was able to control and show Denethor only what he wanted Denethor to see:

’He was too great to be subdued by the will of the Dark Power, he saw nonetheless only those things which the power permitted him to see. The knowledge which he obtained was, doubtless often of service to him; yet the vision of the great might of Mordor that was shown to him fed the despair of his heart until it overthrew his mind."~The Pyre of Denethor

In this encounter with Sauron and Pippin, I would no doubt expect that Sauron saw everything he wanted.

1) Pippin wasn't a rightful owner of the palantir, yet Denethor was of his:

These stones were an inalienable gift to Elendil and his heirs, to whom alone they belonged by right; but this does not mean that they could only be used rightfully by one of these 'heirs'. They could be used lawfully by anyone authorized by either the 'heir of Anarion' or the 'heir of Isildur', that is, a lawful King of Gondor or Arnor. [...] In Gondor latterly, as the office of Steward rose in importance and became hereditary, providing as it were a permanent 'understudy' to the King, and an immediate viceroy at need, the command and use of the Stones seems mainly to have been in the hands of the Stewards, and the traditions concerning their nature and use to have been guarded and transmitted in their House. Since the Stewardship had become hereditary from 1998 onwards, so the authority to use, or again to depute the use, of the Stones, was lawfully transmitted in their line, and belonged therefore fully to Denethor. ~Unfinished Tales; The Palantiri

Denethor was also a rightful viewer of the Stone (though he was much closer in proximity to Sauron than was Aragorn or Pippin)...however as we see he was unable to wrestle any sort of control over what Sauron showed him.

2) Denethor, Saruman, and Aragorn were much stronger as far as willpower than Pippin was:

"...nor had he [Sauron] any servant whose mental powers were superior to Saruman's or even Denethor's."~ibid

Therefor, I think it's highly possible, that Sauron saw exactly who Pippin was and how he looked. It certainly appears that Sauron won the exchange, as Pippin is in a complete state of shock and fear after he looked into it.

[the phantom]

With the questions over the palantir. The palantiri could not be made to lie by anybody. So, they were definitely accurate and reliable sources of information.

I don't believe anyone has said otherwise.

In this encounter with Sauron and Pippin, I would no doubt expect that Sauron saw everything he wanted.

Therefor, I think it's highly possible, that Sauron saw exactly who Pippin was and how he looked.

I don't agree.

For the first bit Sauron speaks to Pippin thinking he is Saruman, which makes it quite clear that the palantir isn't exactly the same as a video conference. So no, I wouldn't expect that Sauron saw everything he wanted. His perception is clearly limited, and he clearly did not see exactly who Pippin was and how he looked.

Pippin had to tell Sauron he was a hobbit. And that's not to mention the fact that Sauron did not even know where Pippin was. He thought he was in Isengard. If you can't even tell where the person is you are talking to, then the method of communication you are using is certainly less than perfect.

[Boromir88]

For the first bit Sauron speaks to Pippin thinking he is Saruman, which makes it quite clear that the palantir isn't exactly the same as a video conference.

Like Fordim says though, why would Sauron assume that somebody else was using the palantir, other than Saruman? Sauron then realizes that it's not Saruman asks 'who's there'. I think also this was the first time Sauron came into contact with a Hobbit, or seen a hobbit. He just learned about them recently, and never saw one before, so he wouldn't know who Pippin was. Once Pippin responds that he's a Hobbit, Sauron then sees him and laughs:

'Then suddenly he seemed to see me, and he laughed at me.'

Pippin had to tell Sauron he was a hobbit.

How would Sauron know what a hobbit looks like if he's never seen a Hobbit before?

He thought he was in Isengard. If you can't even tell where the person is you are talking to, then the method of communication you are using is certainly less than perfect.

What we are told from the UT, this is where the problem occurs. Because objects were 'blinded' or blotted out unless there was some sort of light reflecting off them. This was in the dark, at night, there was the 'moonlight gleaming off its surface', but that's all. So, without the light on objects, you couldn't see any surroundings (but that doesn't mean you couldn't see another viewer) Now a person of significant willpower could do a 'shrouding' effect and cover up objects, or they could cause the palantir to concentrate one some point, but this took quite a bit of willpower and was extremely tiring. Pippin definitely wouldn't be able to do this.

Perhaps it was premature of me to say that Sauron saw exactly everything he wanted, because he obviously couldn't tell the stone wasn't in Orthanc anymore. But, I don't see how we can get a sense that Sauron didn't see Pippin. Pippin saw Sauron and was able to recognize him, it's just that Sauron saw Pippin and was unable to recognize him (hence the 'Who is it?'). Probably because:

1) He's got a recent and limitted knowledge on Hobbits, most likely never saw one before, so literally wouldn't know who it is.

2) Also wondering why it wasn't Saruman who was viewing it, and wanted to know who was.

Anyway, asking 'Who is it' doesn't mean Sauron wasn't able to see Pippin, he just didn't know who was using it.

[the phantom]

How would Sauron know what a hobbit looks like if he's never seen a Hobbit before?

I would completely agree with that.

So in response to Fordim earlier theorizing on Sauron's thought process-

Hey, a hobbit? Is it the Ringbearing one or not? Hmmmmmm....a bit taller than the one Witchie told me about....not quite so red in the cheeks....younger than Baggins.....no sign of the Ring on his finger or around his neck.....no sense of Ringiness here......nope, it's not Frodo Baggins.

There is no way Sauron could've possibly seen Pippin in that much detail considering that he didn't know he wasn't Saruman at first. In addition, there's no way he had that much info on the hobbits already since Pip had to tell him "I'm a hobbit".

Sauron hadn't seen mug shots of the hobbits. If Sauron was given pics of the four hobbits he wouldn't have any idea which one was which.

And if anyone remembers, the original reason I'm arguing this point in the first place is simply to disprove the notion that Sauron could in any way rule Pip out as the Ring-bearer. I think Sauron thought Saruman had captured the Ring bearer! Why else get excited and send a Nazgul? Would Saruman go to the Shire and kidnap Lobelia and show her to Sauron? Nope. What's the point? There's only one reason for Saruman to show off a hobbit to Sauron- to say "I've got the Ring!"

I don't see how we can get a sense that Sauron didn't see Pippin.

Well, if we consider what you said about the whole "must be lighted" property of the palantir, Pippin was in a dark place, so perhaps it's possible that Sauron couldn't see him too well. If Sauron could really see him as plain as day then he would've screeched to a halt after his first word and said "Who is this?" but instead he finished two whole sentences, and asked only after Pip didn't answer. Sauron couldn't have fully seen Pippin. That wouldn't make sense.

[The Saucepan Man]

I'd like to look back at the passage in question:

'Then suddenly he seemed to see me, and he laughed at me. It was cruel. It was like being stabbed with knives. I struggled. But he said: "Wait a moment! We shall meet again soon. Tell Saruman that this dainty is not for him. I will send for it at once. Do you understand? Say just that!"~The Palantir

There is no doubt in my mind that the references to "dainty" and "it" are intended to refer to the Ring. That is the natural reading of the passage and it is how I have always understood it.

Had Tolkien intended Sauron to be referring to Pippin rather than the Ring, he would I am sure have phrased it something like this:

'Then suddenly he seemed to see me, and he laughed at me. It was cruel. It was like being stabbed with knives. I struggled. But he said: "Wait a moment! We shall meet again soon. Tell Saruman that you are not for him, my dainty. I will send for you at once. Do you understand? Say just that!"

The words "Do you understand" indicates that Sauron intended there to be no confusion. Believing Pippin to be the Ringbearer, he wanted it to be clear to Saruman that the Ring was not for him (Saruman) and was to be surrendered to him (Sauron) forthwith. He therefore asked Pippin to convey this to Saruman in a manner such that Saruman would understand exactly what he meant. Sauron was assuming that the hobbit was the Ringbearer and that Saruman knew this. In these circumstances, Pippin's repetition of the words used ("Say just that!") would convey to Saruman exactly what Sauron wanted.

Imagine that Pippin is the Ringbearer and Saruman knew this (Sauron's assumption), what would be Saruman's natural conclusion from the following words?

"This dainty is not for you. He will send for it at once."

That Sauron wanted the Ring and was sending for it.

Now imagine that both Sauron and Saruman knew that Pippin was not the Ringbearer. What would be Saruman's natural conclusion from the same words? There is no natural conclusion. It could mean a number of things. It is ambiguous. Sauron would not have wanted any ambiguity. So, in these circusmtances, he would have told Pippin to tell Saruman that he, Pippin, was not for Saruman. The fact that he did not suggests strongly (absolutely, in my view) that Sauron had made the assumption referred to above and that he was talking about the Ring.

As for Sauron's knowledge of the identity of the hobbit to whom he was speaking, I would agree wholeheartedly with the phantom that there was no way that Sauron would be able to tell one Hobbit from the other in the circumstances prevailing. The only argument that I have seen which might support the opposite view is Fordim's suggestion that he would be able to "feel" the Ringbearer. However, given the various points that have been made about the the Palantir (that Sauron was using it without rights of ownership and that its "transmission" was in any event less than perfect), it seems to me entirely credible that he would not have been able to feel the presence of the Ring through it, particularly given the natural meaning of the words used. Had the Palantir allowed the user to "feel" the presence of power, then Sauron would presumably have been able to detect that Saruman was not present. He did not. He assumend that Pippin was with Saruman.

So, why was Sauron so comfortable about the Ring having fallen into the hands of one such as Saruman?

Originally Posted by Mithadan

And then, of all things, Sauron laughs!

Perhaps it was a nervous laugh.

It is true to say that Sauron feared that someone, particularly someone of great power, would seek to use the Ring against him. My guess, however, is that he knew that it would take anyone (even one such as Saruman) time to master the Ring (assuming even that he could, which is open to speculation). He was no doubt hopeful that Saruman would voluntarily return the Ring to him, in return for great favour in his "new order" (whether he intended to bestow it or not). Of course, he was also aware that Saruman was capable of treachery. In such circumstances, however, he was, I am sure, confident that he would be able to overcome Saruman before Saruman would be able to master the Ring. Perhaps he was over-confident, but we know that Sauron was not exactly lacking in self-confidence (ultimately, to his detriment).

He laughed because finally (in his mind) the Ring had turned up in circumstances where he was confident of securing its return.

I also agree with the phantom that one Nazgul was despatched because that Nazgul happened to be in the vicinity and would be able to get to Isengard quickly to establish whether Saruman was prepared to give up the Ring voluntarily and, if so, take custody of it. If he was not, then I am sure that Sauron would not have hesitated to unleash such power as was available (all of the Nazgul, at the very least). We know from Unfinished Tales that Saurman was fearful of the Nazgul when they came to Insengard in full force. Sauron would, I am sure, have been confident that he could obtain the Ring from Saruman one way or another.

[Boromir88]

Sauce, excellent post...that's all I can say.

Phantom:

There is no way Sauron could've possibly seen Pippin in that much detail considering that he didn't know he wasn't Saruman at first. In addition, there's no way he had that much info on the hobbits already since Pip had to tell him "I'm a hobbit".

If Sauron could really see him as plain as day then he would've screeched to a halt after his first word and said "Who is this?" but instead he finished two whole sentences, and asked only after Pip didn't answer. Sauron couldn't have fully seen Pippin. That wouldn't make sense.

Both make sense, the biggest thorn in my side was if he believed Saruman had the Ring, why would he only send one nazgul (I'll get to that more in a moment). The argument that Sauron was referring to Pippin as 'dainty' and 'it' is truly hard to try and convince people, and as Sauce shows it really doesn't make a lot of sense. If Sauron already had referred to Pippin as 'We' (you and I) than it just doesn't fit with the rest of Sauron's message.

My biggest problem was wondering why Sauron would just send one Nazgul if he was sending for the Ring. However, if we take some things into consideration I can see why Sauron would believe 1 Nazgul would suffice.

Eventhough he didn't know it...Saruman is trapped and was booted from the Order. What Gandalf says about him possibly holding off, or trapping a Nazgul is purely Gandalf's speculation. Saruman, though still could be potentially dangerous, has lost most of his power.

As phantom says, he wanted to act as quickly and with as few resources as possible to send for the Ring. He was already dealing with, and organizing for war on several fronts. Also, Sauron could have figured Saruman wouldn't have been able to do much with the Ring...considering this quote before from the Foreward:

Saruman, failing to get possession of the Ring, would in the confusion and treacheries of the time have found in Mordor the missing links in his own researches into Ring-lore, and before long he would have made a Great Ring of his own with which to challenge the self-styled Ruler of Middle-earth.

Eventhough this is a 'what would happen if...' scenario Tolkien conjured up...I took this as meaning Saruman still had some kinks he had to work out in his Ring-lore studies. So there would be little fear of Saruman being able to use the Ring.

And finally as Mithadan argued, Sauron still probably assumed Saruman was 'loyal' to him and do as he said.

[Mister Underhill]

Time, tide, and BD discussion threads wait for no man. I haven't been able to read or compose in detail as I'd like, but I thought I'd throw out at least a few thoughts.

It seems to me at least that Gandalf presumes that Sauron was thinking of Pippin when he spoke of "this dainty":

Originally Posted by Gandalf

If he had questioned you, then and there, almost certainly you would have told all that you know, to the ruin of us all. But he was too eager. He did not want information only: he wanted you, quickly, so that he could deal with you in the Dark Tower, slowly.

That dark mind will be filled now with the voice and face of the hobbit and with expectation: it may take some time before he learns his error.

So Saruman will come to the last pinch of the vice that he has put his hand in. He has no captive to send. He has no Stone to see with, and cannot answer the summons. Sauron will only believe that he is withholding the captive and refusing to use the Stone. It will not help Saruman to tell the truth to the messenger.

"He wanted you."

The dark mind which had been seeking his lost Ring literally for centuries would now be filled with the "voice and face of the hobbit", rather than the Ring, if he thought that was what he was sending for?

And lastly, mention is made of "the captive", but not the Ring.

Make of those what you will. To my mind, Gandalf did not jump to the conclusion that Sauron thought Saruman had captured the Ring.

Even a cursory glance at "The Hunt for the Ring" from UT (with the usual caveat that the text is unfinished, and indeed exists in several varying forms -- but what the heck, we're using UT as authoritative on how the Palantíri function) shows that Sauron by no means considered Saruman loyal at this late date, no matter which version you examine.

I have some ideas on what this implies for who knew what when, and what some of the dynamics might have been, but they will have to wait for a later date, I'm afraid.

One interesting thing of note is that my impression on a quick skim is that Uruks and Northerners from Moria attacked the Fellowship at Amon Hen; Grishnákh may or may not have been with them at that time, or may have caught up with them afterward; either way, I think he's the sole Mordor rep at first. After he stirs up the pot and it goes against the Northerners, I think Grishnákh slinks off, and only returns later with a band of Mordor orcs -- just in time to get rounded up and slaughtered by the Rohirrim. In other words, the group that attacked the Fellowship may not have been a Mordor/Isengard coalition force.

Last quick point. Going back to "The Hunt for the Ring":

Originally Posted by UT

"Sauron's fears were much allayed when he perceived from Gollum's account that Baggins must have been a creature of the same sort."

You don't think twice about calling a creature from a species of furry-footed little creatures an "it", especially if you're the most egotistical being walking Middle-earth.

[The Saucepan Man]

From the excerpt quoted by Mister Underhill above:

That dark mind will be filled now with the voice and face of the hobbit and with expectation: it may take some time before he learns his error. (emphasis added)

What is this error that Gandalf considers Sauron may take some time discovering? Surely it is his mistake in assuming that Pippin was the Ringebearer.

It is not at all inconsistent with Sauron assuming that Pippin was the Ringbearer that he would want to question the captive Pippin. Even with the Ring regained, he was still at war with the Free Peoples. He would want as much information concerning his enemy as possible, particularly when the captive was a known associate of Gandalf and had visited Rivendell and (possibly, although this, I think, remains unclear) Lothlorien.

Originally Posted by Mister Underhill

You don't think twice about calling a creature from a species of furry-footed little creatures an "it", especially if you're the most egotistical being walking Middle-earth.

Agreed. Except when you are addressing said furry-footed little creature and directing it to convey a very important message concerning itself to another. In those circumstances, Sauron would not say to the creature: "tell him to send it to me", but rather: "tell him to send you to me".

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

Sorry Sauce, but I think that Mister Underhill has carried the day here.

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Fordim

Sorry Sauce, but I think that Mister Underhill has carried the day here.

Now you know that there is no more effective way of drawing me back out than saying something like that ...

If he had questioned you, then and there, almost certainly you would have told all that you know, to the ruin of us all. But he was too eager. He did not want information only: he wanted you, quickly, so that he could deal with you in the Dark Tower, slowly.

That dark mind will be filled now with the voice and face of the hobbit and with expectation: it may take some time before he learns his error.

It has been suggested that Sauron was quite aware that Pippin was not the Ringbearer but nevertheless wanted him brought to Barad-Dur because he wanted information from him.

But Gandalf says that Sauron did not want information only.

So why did Sauron want him, if not only for information? And why did he want him so quickly? Simply to indulge in a little bit of torture? Perhaps, but I don't see any reason for the excessive eagerness or the urgency if that was the case. Why the excitement over the prospect of torturing an unimportant creature of a race that he had barely heard of and attached no significance to other than in connection with the Ring?

No, Sauron wanted Pippin brought quickly to Barad-Dur because he believed Pippin to be the Ringbearer (thus enabling him to obtain the Ring) and because he wanted to "deal" with the Ringbearer, slowly. The fact that Pippin would no doubt have information that would be useful to him was another reason for dealing with him personally, but it was the prospect of torturing the Ringbearer (and, of course, retrieving the Ring) that prompted the urgency and eagerness.

I can understand Sauron getting excited at the prospect of "dealing" with a creature who was (illegitimately, to his mind) in possession of the most precious thing in the world to him rather more than I can understand him getting excited at the prospect of "dealing" with a mere Hobbit with some useful information.

[Mister Underhill]

It's quite clear that Sauron wanted Pippin brought quickly because he had a craving for a nice, tasty dainty. These are difficult to be had in Mordor, as everyone knows, and when he clapped eyes on Pippin, he just couldn't wait. He hung up quickly so he could go order the manufacture of some whipped cream (in Mordor it really is "whipped"). That's one theory, anyway.

Take a look at things from Sauron's point of view.

You know that Saruman is not a loyal ally.

You know, in fact, that Saruman is in a race with you to find the Ring.

Saruman has not been answering his phone. In fact you've sent a Nazgûl across the River sooner than you wanted to in order to find out why.

You likely know that an attack on the Fellowship was made, not by your forces, and perhaps you know that the attackers were attempting to return to Isengard.

Now, your phone rings. It's Saruman. At this point, the only reason you can think of for him to be calling is that he has decided to make peace with you, so you answer the phone, "So, you have come back?"

But now you see that it's not Saruman after all. It's one of those furry-footed little creatures who have had the temerity to steal your Ring (Precious!!).

Saruman must be showing it to you. Why?

Perhaps he has discovered the Ring and is showing you this creature to demonstrate that (a) he has it and (b) he wants to give it back to you. Nix. If Saruman had found the Ring, he would have taken it.

Perhaps he has discovered the Ring and is showing you this creature to taunt you, to rub your face in it that he has found the Ring, and has no intention of giving it to you. Not likely. Saruman is not a complete fool. Even if he never said the words from UT, the logic behind them is pretty persuasive:

Originally Posted by Saruman

"...if I knew where [the Ring] was hid, I should not be here, but long gone before you take it."

Perhaps, by attacking the Fellowship, he made his last ditch play to get the Ring for himself. Now, having failed, he sees the writing on the wall. The Ring is beyond his grasp. War is imminent, and you will win. Thus, he is showing you this prisoner as a peace offering. You could question the prisoner here and now, but it may say something aloud that you don't want Saruman to hear. And anyway, torture over the phone just doesn't compare with torture in person. Just in case Saruman has any ideas about questioning the prisoner himself, as he planned to do with Gandalf, you issue him a warning. Then you hang up so you can get NPS (Nazgûl Parcel Service) dispatched.

You don't ask to speak directly to Saruman just to make him sweat a bit about whether or not you will accept his peace offering.

That's my take.

[The Saucepan Man]

Effectively, we have a difference of opinion over Sauron’s thought process here. The alternatives may be summarised as follows:

1. Saruman has been looking for the Ring.
2. Saruman has captured a Hobbit.
3. A Hobbit was bearing the Ring.
4. Ergo Saruman has both Hobbit and Ring.
5. I am delighted at this turn of events.
6. Both Hobbit and Ring must be handed over to me immediately.
7. Have Nazgul in vicinity, will send it straight away.

or

1. Saruman was looking for the Ring.
2. Saruman has captured a Hobbit.
3. A Hobbit was bearing the Ring.
4. This Hobbit doesn’t have the Ring.
5. I am delighted at this turn of events.
6. Hobbit must be handed over to me immediately.
7. Have Nazgul in vicinity, will send it straight away.

Both involve an assumption on Sauron’s part – the italicised words at point 4. in both formulations. Neither assumption necessarily follows as a matter of logic from the first three points. However, it seems to me that, in all the circumstances, the assumption in the first formulation is the one that Sauron was the more likely to make. It is also more consistent with the points that follow.

Add to this the words that Sauron spoke to Pippin and the more natural conclusion to draw from his use of the word “it” (repeated by Pippin to Gandalf), and I have no doubt that Sauron thought that Saruman had captured the Ringbearer.

Did Sauron stop to consider the likelihood of Saruman “calling him up” in these circumstances? Possibly. Possibly not. If he did, my guess is that he thought that Saruman was prepared to hand the Ring over to him in return for favour, rather than risk having Sauron’s full force unleashed upon him. Sauron was an over-confident fellow who regarded himself and his capabilities highly and assumed that others would do so too. Alternatively, he may have thought that the captive Hobbit had been left alone by Saruman with the Palantir and had made a desperate attempt to call for help.

Although we are here in the realm of pure speculation, there are to my mind perfectly credible explanations for Sauron not thinking it overly strange that he should receive this call.

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

You are right there Sauce about the reliance on assumption that you and Misty Undy are engaging in -- which is why I forsake such things and cite once more the passage provided by MU above:

"If he had questioned you, then and there, almost certainly you would have told all that you know, to the ruin of us all. But he was too eager. He did not want information only: he wanted you, quickly, so that he could deal with you in the Dark Tower, slowly.

That dark mind will be filled now with the voice and face of the hobbit and with expectation: it may take some time before he learns his error.

So Saruman will come to the last pinch of the vice that he has put his hand in. He has no captive to send. He has no Stone to see with, and cannot answer the summons. Sauron will only believe that he is withholding the captive and refusing to use the Stone. It will not help Saruman to tell the truth to the messenger."

To Gandalf's mind the situation is pretty clear: Sauron wants and is referring to Pippin as the thing to be sent to Mordor; and there is no mention anywhere here of the Ring. Gandalf says that Sauron wants "information", "you", "you" and that he is consumed with "the voice and face of the hobbit" and that he'll be angry that Saruman has withheld "the captive".

Given that this is Gandalf speaking, I'm inclined to follow his lead and take his interpretation of the situation. Now if you want to try and discredit Gandalf you may go right ahead and try...

[Boromir88]

Given that this is Gandalf speaking, I'm inclined to follow his lead and take his interpretation of the situation. Now if you want to try and discredit Gandalf you may go right ahead and try...

That's not too hard...I mean after all it's not that difficult to prove an old crazy man has no idea what he's talking about.

Afterall, here was the guy that called Treebeard the oldest creature that was on the earth and the man who wanted Gimli (who had never been in Moria before) to help him navigate through the Mines.

[Raynor]

here was the guy that called Treebeard the oldest creature that was on the earth

I don't think that's a settled issue.

the man who wanted Gimli (who had never been in Moria before) to help him navigate through the Mines.

I wouldn't say that's over the top. As Gimli states in The ring goes south, the images of Moria were set in many images of metal and stone, and in many songs and tales.

[Boromir88]

My last post was in no way intended to be taken seriously...hence the use of the smiley.

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Professor Hedgethistle

Given that this is Gandalf speaking, I'm inclined to follow his lead and take his interpretation of the situation. Now if you want to try and discredit Gandalf you may go right ahead and try...

I wouldn't dream of it. Although Gandalf is not infallible ...

Nevertheless, Gandalf's words are not incompatible at all with my understanding. I refer the learned professor to my post #32. Sauron did not want information only. He wanted the Hobbit. Urgently, and with great anticipation. Why? Because he thought that the Hobbit had the Ring.

Perhaps those asserting the contrary case would care to explain why, if he did not believe the Hobbit to have the Ring, Sauron would become so obsessed with the Hobbit (such that his dark mind would become filled with his voice and face), why he awaited the Hobbit with such expectation and what exactly the error was that Gandalf was referring to.

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

Perhaps those asserting the contrary case would care to explain why, if he did not believe the Hobbit to have the Ring, Sauron would become so obsessed with the Hobbit

Because he knows that the Hobbit (with the Ring) was travelling with three other Hobbits who probably have a good idea of where their friend is at (with said Ring).

why he awaited the Hobbit with such expectation

To extract certain information (see above) and, well, he enjoys tormenting innocents.

and what exactly the error was that Gandalf was referring to.

That Sauron thought Pippin was, and I quote "captive" in Isengard and not riding free with Gandalf with Isengard in smoking ruins behind them.