The Big Bad Read

[Lalwendë]

Shock Horror!

A poll on books in which Tolkien does not come top! But he does come second. Or rather Sauron does. There was a poll taken to find who's the best villain in a book (including comics).

But he's not my favourite villain from Tolkien's books. My favourite is Saruman. I think Sauron is just too rotten to be a really enjoyable villain; Saruman on the other hand is someone good who went bad, and we see his deceptions close up. Plus he gets me thinking about just what it was that he was up to, breaking light and making rings and all that scientific stuff. You don't really know where you are with Saruman, but you just know that Sauron is bad.

Who's your favourite villain in the books? Is Sauron a 'good' villain?

I especially like how in this poll the third named, Mrs Coulter, is still a villain only on the page. Did the films make Sauron seem more scary than he does in the books?

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

Did the films make Sauron seem more scary than he does in the books?

Anytime I see a lighthouse I cower...

Hope that this doesn't take over the thread, but I'm going with Sauron over Saruman. Sauron, being more alien, was scarier. Also I would love to read the history of the entire Third Age from his point of view.

[Bêthberry]

Interesting question. Is Gollem a villain? Or just a pathetic victim?

My money's on Lobelia. That woman could ruin any tea time, and no amount of sherry or port could undo her dispiriting machinations. She puts Mrs. Proudie to shame.

[the guy who be short]

Isn't Artemis Fowl (#10) more of an antihero?

And I would probably go with Gollum. Not only was he good-turned-evil, he was also turned-good-again-turned-evil-agained. It's interesting seeing how he changes from almost-hero to baddy. He's a lot more human than distant Sauron. Saruman would come second, because again, it is quite frightening seeing how he turned to evil and how anybody could, perhaps, fall to such levels, thinking it to be for the greater good.

[The Saucepan Man]

Zaphod Beeblebrox!!!???!!!

The obvious answer to the question of who was the ultimate villain in Tolkien's tales is, of course, Morgoth. His PR agents just ain't as good as Sauron's.

[alatar]

If choosing from the 'list,' then I'm going to go with "Napoleon the Pig." Driving the horse to death while living it up...too many real world exemplars for me. And Voldemort is spooky, but it's in Harry Potterworld, and so I just don't get as hooked. I've seen Saruman, and the reality drives away fear.

The maia that one fears is worse than the wizard one cheers.

[Boromir88]

My favorite villain has always been the Mouth of Sauron. It's rather strange but I find him an excellent villain because the fact that we know so little about him, he makes a short appearance and is shooed off. But as far as villain goes, let's take some of these into account:

The rider was robed in black, and black was his lofty helm; yet this was no Ringwraith but a living man.

To wear black clothing is a symbol of a person's evil. And even more frightening he's compared to a Ringwraith, yet he's not one of them, he's actually still a living man.

But it is told that he was a renegade; who came of the race of those that are named the Black Numenoreans; for they established their dwellings in Middle-earth during the years of Sauron's domination, and they worshipped him, being enamoured of evil knowledge.

Simply put, just more 'eekness' and darkness.

and because of his cunning he grew even higher in the Lords' favour...

Nothing more sweet than an evil man that's cunning, and it should say something considering that he rose well high into the ranks of Sauron. So high that:

and he learned great sorcery, and knew much of the mind of Sauron...

Being Sauron's herald and ambassador, he was able to learn from Sauron's own thoughts and be a good representative of his will. And concluding, maybe the most evil thing of all:

and he was more cruel than any orc.

That says a lot right there.

We know so little, yet so much, about the Mouth of Sauron, and that to me makes him the most intriguing villain in LOTR. We know:

1. He doesn't remember his own name
2. He's robed in all black
3. He is compared to a Ringwraith
4. He knows Sauron's mind probably better than anyone else
5. He's learned sorcery from Sauron
6. He's more cruel than any orc

And we learned all this in one short paragraph, yet there is so much mystery surrounding his history, his fate, what it was like to be Sauron's right hand guy. I've often thrown around the theory that had Sauron been successful and gained control of all Middle-earth he would have booted Saruman from Orthanc and placed in the MoS in charge.

So, for me, the mystery yet frightening look at just exactly how evil this man was in one little paragraph makes him my favorite villain in the story.

[Macalaure]

From LotR I would pick the Witch-King. Each time I hear him (or a fellow Nazgûl) speak in the book I shudder. He's extremely scary to me, yet he makes me wonder what kind of person he is, or better, was, and whether he would have chosen differently long ago in hindsight. In a way he's a very tragic figure, on second sight.

Sauron in the LotR is a little too abstract to be a first class villain. But if you look at the Akallabêth, there he is awesome. He's corrupting and unscrupulous, he's in a very interesting way challenged, and he's in a very devilish way sympathetic. I would pick Second-Age-Sauron as my overall favourite.

I give an honourable mention to Carcharoth. Lúthien's words to him about forgetting for a while the dreadful doom of life make me feel truly sorry for him and for all of his breed.

[Folwren]

Don't smash me, but Feanor makes an awesome villain. And he is one, too. If it hadn't been for him a great deal of damage wouldn't have been done! But he is my favorite because at the same time that he's such a rogue, he's also very...how do I put it? I feel bad for making him a villain, but he was one. He was also a perfect elf, though, so far as looks and ability go. He was remarkable! But he was evil.

Originally Posted by Macalaure

From LotR I would pick the Witch-King. Each time I hear him (or a fellow Nazgûl) speak in the book I shudder. He's extremely scary to me, yet he makes me wonder what kind of person he is, or better, was, and whether he would have chosen differently long ago in hindsight. In a way he's a very tragic figure, on second sight.

Do you know what's funny. . .when I first read the books (I was 11, maybe), the Nazguls so scared me that first, I didn't sleep near the edge of my bed for a week for fear of being grabbed by one (from underneath the bed, yes). Second, I even quit reading the first book I was so frightened! I now find it interesting that Tolkien coud have made something so scarry without having any blood or horrible images described in that part of the book. (I'm speaking mainly about Three Is Company.)

Anyway, there are my two cents.

-- Folwren

[Lalwendë]

Hmmm, I could be convinced by The Mouth of Sauron and Feanor to get a place in my top ten Rings baddies, but still nobody tops the satisfaction I get from reading and thinking about Saruman. He's so erm...colourful!

I'm surprised more kids didn't vote for Gollum, but then he did have an endearing side in the films - and I personally don't think he's a villain, more of a victim as Bethberry says. Poor Gollum. I know someone who loves Gollum like he's an imaginary pet too.

[Folwren]

I actually like Gollum a lot when I read the books. I like him all up to The Choices of Master Samwise, and then I hate him. But every time I read the books it's the same. . .poor little chap. He deserves pity during the first half of the story!

-- Folwren

[Bêthberry]

Oh, do we have to make our picks only from the list?

Well then, for me it's a toss-up between The Other Mother in Coraline and Heathcliffe, assuming it's the fellow from Wuthering Heights and not any mangy cat. (okay, yes, it says he is. Just checking.)

Gaiman's book is one of the best creepy children's reads I've read in some time. It moves soooo smooothly from curiosity to peril to terror and I love female charactes who keep their wits about them. And it has its funny moments too. (Yes, I keep a bit of an eye out on the good stuff in children's lit.)

As for Heathcliffe, he's an absolute monster of manipulation, cunning, cruelty, self-satisfaction, vengeance. Who'd have thought Yorkshiremen and women would be so hapless in the hands of an ilk such as him? And that ending! I can't think of another romance that ends any creepier. Boy, that parson's daughter had some imagination--assuming there weren't any sources for him in the neighbourhood which Emily drew upon.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

As for Heathcliffe, he's an absolute monster of manipulation, cunning, cruelty, self-satisfaction, vengeance. Who'd have thought Yorkshiremen and women would be so hapless in the hands of an ilk such as him? And that ending! I can't think of another romance that ends any creepier. Boy, that parson's daughter had some imagination--assuming there weren't any sources for him in the neighbourhood which Emily drew upon.

You never know in Haworth, its a rum place, the West Riding. Also spawned Mr Hughes. Heathcliffe of course was a scouser, and anyone in the UK knows the terror they can strike into the heart of the God fearin' honest folk (I'm allowed to get away with saying that because my mother's one). What about Cathy though? Let's not put all the blame on H; she was a vain, self-centred thing.

Personally I always found Mr Rochester much nicer, even though he himself wasn't the purest of souls what with his locked up wives and deception of Jane.

My other favourites form that list are (of course) Dracula, who has loomed large in my mind since I frst heard of him (via a Hammer horror) and Mrs Coulter, who is not in the end a 'boo-hiss' villain - I'll say no more so as not to spoil the books for anyone yet to read them. But what she does at Bolvangar is probably quite enough to fix her as utterly beyond redemption in most readers' minds. I'm looking forward to seeing Nicole Kidman play her, as she can do cold, chilling badness very well.

[Farael]

or three questions in one

My favourite LoTR Villain? That has to be the Witch King. When he speaks, it sends a shiver down your spine. He's outright rotten, even if he was not so once a long time ago. Yes, he is not completely his own Master, his will is bent to Sauron's, and yet he is much more real... Sauron in LoTR is too abstract to be scary.

But my favourite baddie in all of Tolkien's work? ah, when we add the Silmarillion to the equation then Sauron wins by a landslide. Morgoth is as bad as they get, but he's again too abstract (less abstract than Sauron in LoTR but still a bit too out there. Yet Sauron.... we get to learn a bit more about him on the Sil, so that when you read about his work in LoTR he is no longer a big red eye standing atop a mighty fortress... he's the same guy who ensnared the elves (elves! and he messed with them!) of Eregion, the same guy who fought with Beren and Luthien (and lost)... and the list goes on.

My favourite bad guy on that list? well, Sauron, 'cos I plain old don't really know any others. And no, Zaphoid is NOT a villian.

[Laitoste]

My favorite bad guy? The Ring, unless you count it as part of Sauron. How cool (in concept)/terrifying (in actuality) is an object that can take over your mind and soul? And we all can relate to it. It's the ultimate enemy--how do you fight against an inanimate object? How do you battle something that is corroding your willpower, your very being?

Other than that, the Witch King--what Farael said--or Smaug would have to be my favorites. Such delicious malice! Sauron is almost too easy to ignore--it's the Ring we worry about, the Ring that frightens us. And the only time Sauron scares me in the films is when, in Bree, the Eye suddenly flashes on the screen. I jump off the couch every time...

Oh, and favorite villain on list? Heathcliff. Hands down. Even though I don't remember the book very well, I remember being thoroughly creeped out by him--the whole thing, really.

[tar-ancalime]

Tee-hee...

I haven't read the Pullman series, and as I was reading through this thread (before clicking on the list), I thought you were talking about Ann Coulter!

Anyway, from the list I'd have to go with Napoleon. From Tolkien, though, I'd have to say the willow. It's vague, it's rotten through and through, and it has an incredible evil power, right in the middle of Bombadil's land. Also it has no "real" reason for wanting to ensnare the hobbits. It doesn't want the Ring, it's not working for Sauron; it's just bad news through and through.

Also the episode takes place in my favorite part of the story--the very time-consuming meandering before they get to Bree and things really start moving fast. I love the slow pace of the exposition and the trying-on of villains, as though Tolkien doesn't want to tip his hand yet: what kind of story is this going to be, anyway? By the time the hobbits get to Bree, they've already encountered Lobelia, the Black Riders, the Willow, and the Barrow-Wight, while Gandalf is already dealing with Saruman (though the reader doesn't know it yet). It's not clear yet where the real menace is, and Tolkien makes it very plain that the whole quest could just as easily be derailed by one of these "minor" baddies as by Sauron himself.

[Lalwendë]

Well I didn't know who you meant, I've remained blisfully unaware of her, but now I can see the similarities between the two. Meh.

I was thinking, there are some particular types of bad guys in LotR (and lots of them), and for fun I've had a go at some categories, feel free to move things around:

Simple Bad Guys (we don't see their potential for good)
Morgoth
Sauron
Witch King

The Ones Who Stray From the Path (in varying degrees)
Saruman
Denethor
Grima
Boromir
Dead Men of Dunharrow (I know, they come good)

The Exploited (used by the powers that be)
Gollum
Ungoliant
Orcs (bit controversial this one )
Dunlendings

Natural Terrors (unpredicatable, linked to nature)
Old Man Willow
Shelob
Barrow Wights

Have some fun arguing with that lot.

[The Sixth Wizard]

Curses, defeated again by those Harry Potter nerds! They usurp the spotlight even more than men!!

Anyway, you guys have it completely right. You mourn the destruction of the world by Morgoth, but there is not enough detail for it to be scary. Saruman appears worse than Sauron because he is actually talking in the book, but I can tell you, even at thirteen years of age, when I first read Akkalabeth before bed one night it was pretty darn scary. Just imagining the burning, the torture, the wrath of Eru, the downfall of the blessed men. <sigh>

Oh and Feanor is not evil, just stubborn.

[Macalaure]

Hmmm, categories.


Simple Bad Guys
No bad guy in Tolkien's works is just a 'simple' bad guy. Even Morgoth once strayed from the path. But if this constrains itself to the scope of LotR, then it's okay. These are the true symbols of evil.

Morgoth
Sauron
Witch King / Nazgûl (they surely used to belong into the Seduced category, but by the time of LotR and the way we meet them there, they belong to the Simple Bad Guys)
The Mouth of Sauron


The Ones Who Stray From the Path (in varying degrees)
This is a very broad category. Pretty much everything can be fitted into it. I will narrow it a bit for this reason: The ones who keep their good intentions (or think they do) but on the path to them go astray.

Saruman
Denethor
Boromir


The Seduced
They started out as good guys as well, but due to an external force that seduced them they turned to evil, but kept struggling.

Gríma
Gollum


The Exploited
These already started out from the not-so-good point, or at least had a weak spot that made them receptive. The evil seed that was inside them then was used by the real bad guys.

Ungoliant
Dunlendings
Dead Men of Dunharrow
Haradrim, Easterlings, Corsairs


The Created
Baddies that were created by bigger baddies to serve their purposes. Perhaps a sub-category of The Exploited.

Orcs
Werewolves and Wargs
Trolls


Natural Terrors
The baddies that act without a purpose, just out of themselves.

Old Man Willow
Shelob
Barrow Wights (probably started out as Exploited, while the old Angmar existed)
The Watcher in the Water
The Sackville-Bagginses
The Balrog (again someone who started out as Simple or Seduced, but in LotR he acts out of his own mind)
Smaug (the same)
Caradhras?


Where can we put Ferny or Saruman's thugs?

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by Macalaure

Where can we put Ferny or Saruman's thugs?

Natural terrors, maybe?

[Volo]

Had a long smile at Mac's Natural Terrors list with the The Sackville-Bagginses.

That link would be more like "Who's the most popular bad guy".

The big villian would propably be Woland from The Master and Margarita. That was far scarier than those few that are on the list and I know. But then again, Woland propably did more good than bad...

[Macalaure]

Had a long smile at Mac's Natural Terrors list with the The Sackville-Bagginses.

I'm sure Bilbo would agree!