Sauron Vs the Ring

[Morsul the Dark]

Sauron made the ring to enhance his power yet I have to ask...dd he contrl it or did the ring control sauron? did he want to find it because he needed it to control middle arth or did he need it like gllum needed it?

[narfforc]

Maybe it is more Sauron vs Sauron, how much of himself was in the One Ring and was his own will inside the ring enhancing him, or was his power enhancing the ring, would the will of the ring get the better of him in a struggle of control.

I hope that makes sense.

[Farael]

What you guys are forgetting is that the will of the Ring is the will of his Master... and Sauron is the only true Master of the One Ring. Even if someone else mastered it and managed to defeat Sauron, the ring would ultimately corrupt them into another Dark Lord... thus, it's still the will of Sauron at work, just not Sauron himself doing it.

So, to answer the question and as nafforc said, the ring IS Sauron... but from my perspective, it's not a matter of who controls whom.... as they are the same thing.

[Morsul the Dark]

Well thats what I mean Sauron can use th rings to corrupt but has he corrupted without the use of rings?

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by Morsul the Dark

...did he contrl it or did the ring control sauron? did he want to find it because he needed it to control middle arth or did he need it like gllum needed it?

I don't think that the ring could have controlled Sauron; in the Letters, it is stated:

Originally Posted by Letter #246

Sauron would not have feared the Ring! It was his own and under his will. Even from afar he had an effect upon it, to make it work for its return to himself.

but has he corrupted without the use of rings?

Well, he did turn Gorlim, a companion of Barahir, to the service of Melkor, by using the ilusion of dead wife, Eiliniel.

[The 1,000 Reader]

Originally Posted by Raynor

Well, he did turn Gorlim, a companion of Barahir, to the service of Melkor, by using the ilusion of dead wife, Eiliniel.

Which was sadly the only time he used his powers for something smart.


Which was sadly the only time he was smart.

[The Sixth Wizard]

The only time he was smart?? Ahem, Numenor...

What I wonder was if Sauron and the Ring were seperate or not. Sauron could not use the Ring to detect where the company were or what they were talking about, at least I don't think so. Was it like a second Sauron within the Ring? This would explain why Sauron didn't want another Dark Lord, only the Ring-Sauron would survive, not the Eye-Sauron.

[ninja91]

I think that it was the ring that controlled Sauron, because it was the ring that which his life began to revolve around. It did not seem to control him, but it seemed to consume him, if you can catch my drift, dude.

[Mänwe]

To start at the end and go to the beggining is what I will do here. For I in my personal opinion must agree with ninja's statement, and it would seem we are in favour of your second point Morsul, it was more of a "gollum" desire.

The reason for my belief is due to the existence of Letter #131 which unfortunately struggles against the letter Raynor qouted. And clearly disagree's with Farael's point.

"'Also, so great was the Ring's power of lust, that anyone who used it became
mastered by it; it was beyond the strength of any will (even his own) to
injure it, cast it away, or neglect it. So he thought. It was in any case on
his finger.'" (Letter #131)

"...(even his own)" this is Sauron, the quote continues in a similar style, reflecting the feelings of all those who had possession of the ring for a time, Isuldur, Gollum and Bilbo and to an extent Frodo.

I do admit though it is tough to disregard the second quote other than to say that Letter #131 was written after Letter #246. Perhaps he had a change of heart?

As has been pointed out I would put forward his capture by Ar-Pharazôn and subsequent corruption of the King is an adequate example of him not using the ring. Though whether he actually had the ring or not during his capture is a matter of debate.

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by Manwe

"...(even his own)" this is Sauron, the quote continues in a similar style, reflecting the feelings of all those who had possession of the ring for a time, Isuldur, Gollum and Bilbo and to an extent Frodo.

I don't see this as implying Sauron's subserviency. We should look at the whole quote: it says: beyond his will to injure it, cast it away or neglect it. Now seeing that Sauron would have demanded absolute obedience from all inhabitants of Middle Earth should he have become victorious, and that he thirsted for power all along, this simply underlines the great power that he put in the ring - a power he would not neglect (and esspecially not hurt) - to do so, would be against all his inner motivations. If Sauron would stop being obssessed with power, and building more of it, I guess he would stop being Sauron; his motivations were the same, ever since the overthrow of Melkor - rule the whole world. It was the other ring-bearers that had their motivations/behaviours changed due to the influences of the ring.

[Farael]

Originally Posted by The Sixth Wizard

What I wonder was if Sauron and the Ring were seperate or not. Sauron could not use the Ring to detect where the company were or what they were talking about, at least I don't think so. Was it like a second Sauron within the Ring? This would explain why Sauron didn't want another Dark Lord, only the Ring-Sauron would survive, not the Eye-Sauron.

From how I see it, Sauron would have never wanted another Dark Lord, just as bad as him but not himself... because, in contrast with Gandalf or any other of the "good guys" his goals were not altruistic. He was not fighting a war for the pervalence of evil over good for evil's sake, he was fighting a war for HIS OWN dominance over the rest. Sauron wanted Sauron to be the Dark Lord, he didn't want just "a" dark lord.

So, even if the utlimate effect would have been the same (there would be a dark lord who would rule Middle Earth) Sauron would have much rather been that dark lord himself, anyone else (save perhaps Melkor, who is sort of out of the picture) would not have been the same for him.

And even though Manwe brings up an interesting quote, I agree with Rayonor here. Sauron would not have contemplated destroying the Ring because it was not Sauron's nature on the other hand, people of the likes of Frodo, or Isildur or Gollum himself had other motivations and yet they could not destroy, harm or get rid of the ring. In a way, they were becoming more like Sauron and this is what the ring's "corruption" was. It would turn anyone else into a Saruon-clone. Sauron is Sauron himself, so he cannot become more Sauron-like, thus he can't be corrupted by the ring.

Having said that, I want to stress, refering to my previous point, that a Sauron-clone Dark Lord is not what Sauron himself wanted, because his motives were not altruistic but rather individualist.

Originally Posted by Farael

From how I see it, Sauron would have never wanted another Dark Lord, just as bad as him but not himself... because, in contrast with Gandalf or any other of the "good guys" his goals were not altruistic. He was not fighting a war for the pervalence of evil over good for evil's sake, he was fighting a war for HIS OWN dominance over the rest. Sauron wanted Sauron to be the Dark Lord, he didn't want just "a" dark lord.

So, even if the utlimate effect would have been the same (there would be a dark lord who would rule Middle Earth) Sauron would have much rather been that dark lord himself, anyone else (save perhaps Melkor, who is sort of out of the picture) would not have been the same for him.

And even though Manwe brings up an interesting quote, I agree with Rayonor here. Sauron would not have contemplated destroying the Ring because it was not Sauron's nature on the other hand, people of the likes of Frodo, or Isildur or Gollum himself had other motivations and yet they could not destroy, harm or get rid of the ring. In a way, they were becoming more like Sauron and this is what the ring's "corruption" was. It would turn anyone else into a Saruon-clone. Sauron is Sauron himself, so he cannot become more Sauron-like, thus he can't be corrupted by the ring.

Having said that, I want to stress, refering to my previous point, that a Sauron-clone Dark Lord is not what Sauron himself wanted, because his motives were not altruistic but rather individualist.

Alas, you are incorrect. Melkor was inconsevabley((Forgive me for not knowing how to spell it)) more powerfull than Sauron in all around ways. I believe that Sauron poured his soul and his "mind" into that ring, but he left a small part else where to become the "Great Eye". In the beginning of the Fellowship, Galadrial mentions that he poured his Malace and Hatred into the ring, thus meaning that if it were destroyed, being the DARK lord, everything that had been evil about him. Such as the Tower of Baradur and Mordor itself, were obliterated along with the "Great" Lord Sauron. ((Rest In Peace m'lord ))

[Raynor]

In the beginning of the Fellowship, Galadrial mentions that he poured his Malace and Hatred into the ring, thus meaning that if it were destroyed, being the DARK lord, everything that had been evil about him.

In the Silmarillion, it is stated that the dissapearance of Morgoth from Ea doesn't mean that his evil doesn't continue to work - . Although Sauron was the last mythological incarnation of evil, and Barad-dur was destroyed, the evil he dispersed continues to work (I believe it is just dispersed - also because much of that evil comes from Melkor, who almost irreversibly corrupted the Creation).

Alas, you are incorrect. Melkor was inconsevabley((Forgive me for not knowing how to spell it)) more powerfull than Sauron in all around ways.

I disagree; Melkor was once the most powerful creation of Eru - once.

Originally Posted by Notes on motives in the Silmarillion, i, Myths Transformed, HoME X

Sauron was 'greater', effectively, in the Second Age than Morgoth at the end of the First. Why? Because, though he was far smaller by natural stature, he had not yet fallen so low. Eventually he also squandered his power (of being) in the endeavour to gain control of others. But he was not obliged to expend so much of himself. To gain domination over Arda, Morgoth had let most of his being pass into the physical constituents of the Earth – hence all things that were born on Earth and lived on and by it, beasts or plants or incarnate spirits, were liable to be 'stained'. Morgoth at the time of the War of the Jewels had become permanently 'incarnate': for this reason he was afraid, and waged the war almost entirely by means of devices, or of subordinates and dominated creatures.

[Mänwe]

Raynor I do see your point and you have explained it for me well. It is not about whether he 'could' cast it away, rather 'wouldn't' cast it away. However I was not using the forementioned quote to illustrate that he would cast it off. Rather that I thought it did imply his subserviency to the Ring.

For the sake of an attempted flowing post, I shall quote again;

"'Also, so great was the Ring's power of lust, that anyone who used it became mastered by it; it was beyond the strength of any will (even his own) to injure it, cast it away, or neglect it. So he thought. It was in any case on his finger.'" (Letter #131)[My bold]

Is not Tolkien entertaining the idea that Sauron would see no hurt come to ring. Like that Gollum, his need of the ring, and Bilbo's reaction in the Shire to Gandal's questioning about it, are I think, reactions of similar trait to Sauron's feelings toward the ring. He lusted for it, as did all who possesed it, even Deagol who lost his life trying to retain it from the grasp of Smeagol.

Again I shall use ninja's post to illustrate my point;

Originally posted by ninja91

I think that it was the ring that controlled Sauron, because it was the ring that which his life began to revolve around. It did not seem to control him, but it seemed to consume him, if you can catch my drift, dude.

[My bold]

It was I agree the Ring his life revolved around after his fall. As has been recounted countless times in the making of the One he enmeshed much of his own power into it, much like Melkor with pysical objects. Something you quote from in your post. This was its inherant weakness. Going back to my original quote it states that he did not think that someone would have sufficient strength to resist it and so seek to destroy it.

"This was the essential weakness he had introduced into his situation in his effort (largely unsuccessful) to enslave the Elves, and in his desire to establish a control over the minds and wills of his servants. There was another weakness: if the One Ring was actually unmade, annihilated, then its power would be dissolved, Sauron's own being would be diminished to vanishing point, and he would be reduced to a shadow, a mere memory of malicious will." (Letter #131)

The fact that his very existance could be eradicated on the subsequent destruction of the ring meant he had given it far too much control over him. Not in the physical sense, say, similar to the that of a hypnotist has over someone to induce physical movement.

But control over his actual existence, body only. For want of a better analogy I shall use the recent Pirates of the Carribean film. Davy Jones has his heart in a locked box, should it be destroyed then so too would he be. But while it still exists, undamaged then he will be immortal.

Do you see the angle of 'control' I am coming from now?

Servant of Shadow; inconceivably.

And Raynor's quotation is a perfect illustration of Melkor's residual power. I interpret the quote as Melkor's residual power giving rise to the potential of a conscious mind able to express free will turning to "evil".

[Boromir88]

but he left a small part else where to become the "Great Eye".~Servant

Sauron wasn't a Great Eye with a spotlight, that is an invention by the movie. He indeed had a physical form and a physical presense, as the Ring's powers were in rapport (meaning 'bound to' Sauron). So, even if he lost it, or didn't have it, the Ring's power was still tied to Sauron. If the Ring was destroyed, as Manwe points out, Sauron would be reduced to impotence, he would have been a mere shadow, unable to form into another body. Though as long as the Ring was still around, Sauron could have a physical form (not a bodiless Eye), and he didn't need to actually have the Ring to form into another body, because the powers of the Ring were bound to him.

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by Mänwë

It was I agree the Ring his life revolved around after his fall.

I disagree; after his fall, he believed the ring was lost:

Originally Posted by The Shadow of the Past, FotR

And this is the dreadful chance, Frodo. He believed that the One had perished; that the Elves had destroyed it, as should have been done. But he knows now that it has _not_ perished, that it has been found. So he is seeking it, seeking it, and all his thought is bent on it. It is his great hope and our great fear.

So Sauron believed the ring perished; after that, he merrily returned to conquering the world again, in the name of evil. Even after he learns about the existence of the ring, he peacefully continues his plans of beating the living bejesus out of Middle Earth - we don't see Sauron deflecting the bulk of his efforts towards recovering the ring or, even less, overwhelming the Shire by force, due to some fixation he has with the ring; he doesn't drop his plans, he steadily builds up his forces. He chooses stealth in his attempts to recover; the nazgul go in hiding, he conceals their actions with sideways attacks. Even when he launches his untimely offensive, it is more or less in tone with his plans of conquest. My point is that Sauron shows he is capable of pursuing his own plans, independent of the ring; others, such as the ringbearers, or even Galadriel, face an almost indomitable pressure to alter all their behaviour and life to the corruption of the ring.

[Mänwe]

Raynor,

I may use the same quote to counter your ideas that Sauron was not whole heartedly looking for the One. It is sufficient also I think to show he has a great fixation for the One.

"But he knows now that it has not perished, that it has been found. So he is seeking it, seeking it, and all his thought is bent on it." - (Book I, Chapter 2 The Shadow of the Past.) [My bold]

Yes he does not send any great force, other than the Nine, in search for it, but it is still very much part of his desire.

Secondly, and probably should have been primarily, I think you misunderstand what I mean. By his "life" I meant literally, not his peaceful ( indeed lol) plans for domination but his very existence. Should the One be destroyed then he also is undone. That is the control the One has over him, and was the weakness in its making.

[The 1,000 Reader]

Originally Posted by The Sixth Wizard

The only time he was smart?? Ahem, Numenor...

Which was already on the way to corruption. He just got himself too involved so all the forces of elves and men could blame him and attack him. He made himself visible on the radar at a bad time. What would have been mourning turned to rage. Sauron wasn't smart save for his first action in the Sil.

I think that the Ring was master over Sauron, not the other way around. It is in the letters.

I am new at the Barrow Downs, so... Hello!

Here's what I personally think of the Sauron versus the Ring issue:

Sauron originally possessed great powers as a Maia. And with the creation of the One Ring, he simply poured himself into it; for I believe that Maiar were able to extend their animating influence to more than just one body. They were angelic beings whose true forms were unseen by the mundane peoples of Middle-earth - meaning: they were formless.
Yes it did seem that some of the Maiar were subjected to one body, as in the case of Gandalf. But still... maybe Sauron had learned some other forms of art from Melkor. The latter was, after all, the mightiest of the Ainur.

Therefore, I think Sauron and the Ring were one and the same.

Or... it could be this:

Sauron and the Ring were not one and the same. Remember Tolkien's philosophy towards technology and materialism, and their powers over the minds and hearts of people?
Well, the Ring symbolized the dominance of technology; and its apparent influences over its recipients (including Sauron) was no different than a man being addicted to... say... a computer for instance.
The recipient's intentions may rise from a good will (e. g. Boromir), but in the end, it will always be power and dominance and technology.

So the Ring did in fact have power over Sauron.


Anyway, I may have repeated someone else's comments; and if so, then I sincerely apologize.

- Philomythus

[Mänwe]

Philomythus, a very warm welcome indeed! Let us hope you are not affected by credulity, and retain your own views!

And to follow up upon your astute summation, I reiterate the importance of the fact that he passed a significant amount of himself into the One Ring, this being his plan's weak point and in part the proof for it controlling him.