What is the fascination with religious topics?

[Arwen Imladris]

On message boards all over the Internet, there are pages and pages and pages of religious debate threads. This board is no exception.

Why do we do this?

I think that it is because religion is something that pretty much everyone has, even if it is that they don't have a specific religion. It is a common thing that sticks in peoples minds. Also, people like to disect LOTR, we know that Tolkien was a christian so naturally people think that his works must be an annalogy of some biblical story. That is my oppinion anyway. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

What do you think?

[gralin musicteeth]

I have heard soooo many things in the book being related to something to do with religion. I don't understand why it really needs to be brought into it. i find that the point is not clearly made, and that whoever writes and/or talks about it is sort of struggling for a point. i don't really see why it matters so much, and i don't care one way or the other, but if you are going to make a point, at least support it.

[HerenIstarion]

support is easily found if one bothers oneself with a bit of research:

from J.R.R.T.'s notes to W.H.Auden's review of LoTR:

In The Lord of the Rings the conflict is not basically about 'freedom', though that is naturally involved. <font color="FF0001">It is about God, and His sole right to divine honour. The Eldar and the Númenóreans believed in The One, the true God, and held worship of any other person an abomination. Sauron desired to be a God-King, and was held to be this by his servants; if he had been victorious he would have demanded divine honour from all rational creatures and absolute temporal power over the whole world.

or, to quote (hum) from Jesus Christ Superstar rock opera - "what more evidence shall we need?"


cheers

[ November 02, 2002: Message edited by: HerenIstarion ]

[Cazoz]

I think a possible reason for many people to aliken the books to Christianity and the Bible is a sort of sub-conscious way of making their favourite books relate to them and their lives more.

After all, as this board shows, there are a lot of nutty fans (and some who even think they are in ME, or that we're in ME eons on) who want to try and approximate themselves to the stories by any means possible.

So if the Christians among us (not I) are there comparing Gandalf and Jesus or whatever, I think it's a rationalising way of linking and connecting books which they love and the Book which they believe in. Art imitating life, or just a Tolkien dependency clutching at any straws to bring themselves closer in thought to the Prof? Who knows?

As for non-Christians, I dunno. Every literary critic loves to find allegories and references, makes us sound better read [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[Amanaduial the archer]

Alot of parts of LotR and the silmarillion can be related to religion, especially Christian religion, just like other novels that go so deep; for example, my sisters confirmation class is examining the Narnia books realting to christianity

[dragoneyes]

The Narnia books are an allegory though (Aslan = Jesus) but the LotR are not, but having said that they could be compared. (sorry, I'm just nit-picking)

[Bill Ferny]

Not discussing the religious influences on Tolkien would be incredibly naïve. Religion permeates the human condition. Even those who say they have no religion, are stating a religious doctrine. Even those who claim there is no God, are stating a religious doctrine. Likewise, every religious doctrine, whether its positive or negative, carries with it a distinct behavioral pattern and a distinct world view that affects one’s interactions with the world, most notably one’s labors.

One might ignore religion, but one will never be able to escape it. There is nothing wrong with discussing an influence on an author’s labor, such as that author’s religion. Is there a problem with discussing the sociological influences of post-WWI England on the writings of JRRT? Is there a problem with discussing the influence of mythology or the Sutton Hoo find on JRRT?

But, perhaps, like Cazoz says, I’m just trying to sound better read, or pretending to be a literary critic who loves to find allegories and references. I honestly didn’t know I was doing this. I thought I was just discussing a work of literature that I truly loved.

I agree that one shouldn’t place in the story an idea that the author never intended to place there. Some theologizing on this board has gone in that direction. However, if there’s an obvious theme or idea that arises from a Christian or Catholic dogma, and is underpinned by hard evidence, such as the example given by HerenIstarion, it should be fair game for discussion and debate.

Religious threads get ugly and get locked. Many people take the opportunity to preach their brand of religion, and aren’t really interested in the specific topic. They have to be right about their beliefs, and must argue until they are blue… hmm… in the fingers (?), and they will force their views into the most unlikely of places. That’s unfortunate, but to make these people an excuse for belittling any discussion about religious topics in LotRs is just a “sub-conscious” (I really don’t think there’s anything sub-conscious about any of this, I’m just trying to be facetious) effort to ignore religion.

Dear Moderator: Like most threads about religion this one ought to be closed or moved. A thread about threads doesn’t seem to have any bearing on the books.

[TolkienGurl]

Well, Tolkien took elements from Christianity, paganism (mythology = polytheism), and other world religions of his time and combined them in a truly unique way to produce a story. That's all it is, a story.

BTW, this topic has been discussed many many times:

Tolkien, Lewis & Theology
Unintentional Religion in Tolkien's works?
Trilogy and Bible?
just to name a few...

Go to the search engine in the top right corner of the BD screen and type in Religion and search in Entire Message. You will find tons of information.

[Aragost]

There is a book written by two people, Kurt Bruner and Jim Ware about the relationships with the bible and TLOTR. it is Called "Finding God In the Lord of the Rings" I'm halfway through reading it and it is very good.

[TolkienGurl]

I have also heard that is a good book. My mom got it for me, but I haven't had time to read it.

[Cazoz]

But, perhaps, like Cazoz says, I’m just trying to sound better read, or pretending to be a literary critic who loves to find allegories and references. I honestly didn’t know I was doing this. I thought I was just discussing a work of literature that I truly loved.

Oh, for heaven's sake. I was making a joke, which was pretty self-deprecating as well. You don't have to get snitty, lighten up.

[Bill Ferny]

Bill Ferny snitty?

Well, I did set an ambush recently for those little urchins planning on tricking rather than treating.

[Cazoz]

Which brings me back to:

there are a lot of nutty fans (and some who even think they are in ME

Hee! I love all the 'getting into character' on the boards some of you guys do!
I'll trick you and throw a bloody apple at your head!

[Bill Ferny]

I've had so many apples thrown at me on this board that I won't have to resort to eating that stupid pony.

I think that the only ones who see the lotr in a christian way, is they who are christians ( i dont know howe to spell that word..)themselfes..i didnt make any connection to religion when i read the book..but maybe thats just me... [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]

[Helkasir]

LOTR is far more a norse mythology relation than anything else. Trolls, Dragons, Halflings, Dwarves, are all of Norse origin.

Every seems to put a lot of stake into what happens after they die. Humans are curious by ature. They only way I'll ever know is when I die. I always have believed that one's body organs fail to operate, thus shutting down the brain. Tehn your body disintergrates into the ground and becomes different particles all together for different purposes.

[TolkienGurl]

Well, in order to make religious connections you have to be religious, or at least know some things about it. Its perfectly normal for religious people to look for elements of their religion in writings, movies, and in other people, and perfectly normal for non-religious people to just like a good story and not worry about the religious elements. I have to admit that when I first read LOTR, I did not realize the different elements of Christianity embedded skillfully, yet maybe unintentionally throughout the story. And I have been Christian since I was 8! (ok, that's only 8 years, but oh well) It all depends on what a person has been trained to do or is used to doing.

[Lush]

What is the fascination with religious topics?

People like to argue.

[Alcerin]

(no offence,but...)what is this fascination with ridiculing Christians(or other religous people)for thier fascination of the topic???

I'm getting kinda tired of this.
Of course nobody can say anything without "forcing" thier beliefs on somone else. I't as simple as that,and if you've got a problem with it...well, you can't change an unwritten law of nature.

P.S. (no offence) [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[ November 02, 2002: Message edited by: Alcerin ]

[Lush]

I'm a Christian, and I practice self-ridicule. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[TolkienGurl]

Why can't we just ridicule each other in peace and harmony?!?! Wait. Did I say that right? *walks over to nearest wall, beats head a couple times (ow! ooh! ouch!), resumes typing* Aaahhh. I feel much better.

[HerenIstarion]

skillfully, yet maybe unintentionally

I can't see how one could make some thing unintentionally, if it were made skilfully? [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img] (with regards of literature, I'm pretty skillful on, say, dressing in the morning thinking of my breakfast, but that's quite different, you know [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img])

[Amanaduial the archer]

Many people see it as a very pagan novel, and there were actually protests when part of LotR was filmed in a Cathedral (Im sorry, i cant remeber which bit- possibly the council at Rivendell). Same with Harry Potter, which was filmed at Durham and Gloucester Cathedral and caused a few reigious societies "major distress" (hey, its the newpapers words, not mine.)(I only know that because my church choir sang there this summer.)

You can read the Lord Of The Rings and the hobbit without thinking of the religion aspect at all, and I dont think the trilogy alone could possibly annoy religious people (I go to Church at least once a week- Im a server and a choirgirl.) The silmarillion does however go quite deeply into the subject of the gods in Middle Earth and many things happen which are divine acts- for example the destruction of the Numenorians. There is a whole multi goded (Im sorry, i cant remember the proper fancy word for it.) religion in Arda.

Religion has always fascinated people because it is something that virtually everyone in the world is involved in in many different ways and forms, yet it can never be fully understood or comprehended, even by those who devote their entire lives to it. It can seperate people and cause wars and huge ethnic cleansings or forms of it (Hitler and the jews for example.), but in the same way it is a bridge that can bring together people and create friendships. The nature of God/gods is one that could be eternally debated, but the fascinating thing is that no one can ever know the answer. Or the answer to what happens after you die- no ones ever going to be able to come back and tell us.


Just my thought for the day.

[TolkienGurl]

HerenIstarion: it made sense to me! Ok, so I'm crazy. What I meant was that to me it seems that he "skillfully" embedded these elements into his writings, but maybe that is only my assumption, and they were put there unintentionally.

[HerenIstarion]

I haven't said you're crazy, you did [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] (just kiddin)

I'm willing to present to your consideration the following:

letter 165 (To the Houghton Mifflin Co.)

It [LoTR and legendarium-H-I]is not 'about' anything but itself. Certainly it has no allegorical intentions, general, particular, or topical, moral, religious, or political. <font color="FF0013">The only criticism that annoyed me was one that it 'contained no religion' (and 'no Women', but that does not matter, and is not true anyway). <font color="FF0012">It is a monotheistic world of 'natural theology'. The odd fact that there are no churches, temples, or religious rites and ceremonies, is simply part of the historical climate depicted. It will be sufficiently explained, if (as now seems likely) the Silmarillion and other legends of the First and Second Ages are published. I am in any case myself a Christian; but the <font color="FF0011">'Third Age' was not a Christian world.

Letter 212

I suppose a difference between this Myth and what may be perhaps called Christian mythology is this. In the latter the Fall of Man is subsequent to and a consequence (though not a necessary consequence) of the 'Fall of the Angels' : a rebellion of created free-will at a higher level than Man; but it is not clearly held (and in many versions is not held at all) that this affected the 'World' in its nature: evil was brought in from outside, by Satan. In this Myth the rebellion of created free-will precedes creation of the World (Eä); and Eä has in it, subcreatively introduced, evil, rebellions, discordant elements of its own nature already when the Let it Be was spoken. The Fall or corruption, therefore, of all things in it and all inhabitants of it, was a possibility if not inevitable. Trees may 'go bad' as in the Old Forest; Elves may turn into Orcs, and if this required the special perversive malice of Morgoth, still Elves themselves could do evil deeds. Even the 'good' Valar as inhabiting the World could at least err; as the Great Valar did in their dealings with the Elves; or as the lesser of their kind (as the Istari or wizards) could in various ways become self-seeking.

Letter 213 to Deborah Webster 25 October 1958

Or more important, I am a Christian (<font color="FF0045">which can be deduced from my stories), and in fact a Roman Catholic. The latter 'fact' perhaps cannot be deduced; though one critic (by letter) asserted that the invocations of Elbereth, and the character of Galadriel as directly described (or through the words of Gimli and Sam) were clearly related to Catholic devotion to Mary

Letter 297

The use of éarendel in A-S Christian symbolism as the herald of the rise of the true Sun in Christ is completely alien to my use. The Fall of Man is in the past and off stage; the Redemption of Man in the far future. <font color="FF0012">We are in a time when the One God, Eru, is known to exist by the wise, but is not approachable save by or through the Valar, though He is still remembered in (unspoken) prayer by those of Númenórean descent

or, as a small draft of a conclusion, having in mind that

(letter 183 Notes on W. H. Auden's review of The Return of the King)

I am historically minded. Middle-earth is not an imaginary world. The name is the modern form (appearing in the 13th century and still in use) of midden-erd > middel-erd, an ancient name for the oikoumenē, the abiding place of Men, the objectively real world, in use specifically opposed to imaginary worlds (as Fairyland) or unseen worlds (as Heaven or Hell). The theatre of my tale is this earth, the one in which we now live, but the historical period is imaginary.

There is a religion in LoTR, but the period described by JRRT is not yet christian, but the world of "good heathens"

[TolkienGurl]

Thanks, HerenIstarion, for those exerpts. I now know why there have been slight misconceptions and/or falsely deduced reasoning on my part because I have not read Tolkien's Letters. I hope to sometime in the near future, and then I can be more sure of my "Tolkienology"!