The Hobbit - Chapter 08 - Flies and Spiders

[Estelyn Telcontar]

The dwarves and Bilbo enter Mirkwood, encountering danger which they cannot avoid. At first, they experience the strangeness of the environment, then darkness, then apparently hostile animal life.

Squirrels, usually friendly animals, are black here; what would normally be familiar seems menacing just by the change in colour. Insects cause a deep-rooted alien feeling in humans in general, and Bilbo notices their eyes with trepidation.

Add to that the fact that food and water soon run low, and the group’s discomfort is complete. Then comes the inevitable – much like in traditional fairy tales, the warning about magical water or leaving the path is disregarded for some reason or other, and the curse takes effect. What fairy tales come to mind when you read this chapter?

Bilbo grows with each adventure; he sees best and tells the others what to do in hopeless situations. He literally rises above himself in climbing to the top of the trees, and later is the one who rescues his companions by fighting valiantly. He makes cunning plans for drawing the spiders away from their victims, risking himself for them.

We do see that the dwarves are loyal; even if the heaviest of their company has to be carried, they do not leave him behind. Other than that, they seem to do the wrong thing most of the time – a foil for the development of Bilbo’s character?

We have Bilbo’s poem, taunting the spiders; what do you think of it? The narrator excuses the poor quality of those “spontaneous” lines due to the circumstances. There are several unusual words included; perhaps we can collect some information on their meaning and etymology: Attercop, Tomnoddy, Lob and Cob.

What is your opinion on the nature of these spiders? They can speak, Common Speech even, and can understand Bilbo’s taunts. Taking LotR and the Sil into consideration, do you think that they are descendents of Ungoliant, perhaps children of Shelob?

We are also introduced to the Wood-Elves in this chapter. Some of the information on them obviously ties in with the Legendarium, differentiating them from the High Elves. The words “more dangerous and less wise” make them sound more like fairy tale elfs, don’t they? And yet, they are called “Good People”, so Tolkien distinguishes them from the ambiguous folk narrative creatures.

We find out about the enmity between dwarves and Elves; doesn’t the account of actual or supposed wrongs on both sides remind you of Thingol?! The account of Thorin’s captivity takes us away from Bilbo’s point of view for a moment, and the chapter ends in suspense as to Thorin’s fate, and that of his fellow dwarves and Bilbo too, though they are not in immediate danger at that point.

What impresses, amuses, or irritates you most in this chapter? How do you think this adventure is important for the story?


Oh, one minor detail that seems too significant not to mention - Bilbo's little sword gets named in this adventure!

[davem]

Originally Posted by Esty

And yet, they are called “Good People”, so Tolkien distinguishes them from the ambiguous folk narrative creatures.

Just a quick note: Fairies are traditionally called 'Good', not because they necessarily are , but so as not to risk offending them. They are always listening & its dangerous to get on the wrong side of them. Country folk, on speaking about fairies would often say 'There's no harm in them' & if anyone praised someone's child for being particularly beautiful or clever, the parent would quickly respond by pointing out some fault in the child, such as that they were lazy, or had a squint or some such thing, in case the fairies were listening & decided to steal them away.

[Tuor of Gondolin]

It's interesting that both Northern Mirkwood and Lorien
were established as entities by Sindar kings ruling over
woodelves, with Lorien later led by Noldor. The nature of
most of the peoples in both realms could explain their
reclusiveness, with the additional reason in Mirkwood of
Thranduil (and before him Oropher?) retreating from
the mountains of central Mirkwood to the northeast.

It seems probable that the giant spiders were the offspring of
either Ungoliant or Shelob, but which? Since I believe
Ungoliant traveled to at least the area of Mordor it
seems possible she visited Mirkwood on the way.

Could there have been some sort of epic battle between
Ungoliant's offspring and ents in Fangorn?

Bilbo is seen at his most heroic, and I think Likeable, here,
displaying loyalty, courage, and intelligence. That'll teach
them dwarves to question the judgement of a wiuzard!

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Tuor of Gondolin

It seems probable that the giant spiders were the offspring of either Ungoliant or Shelob, but which? Since I believe Ungoliant traveled to at least the area of Mordor it seems possible she visited Mirkwood on the way.

Erm... no.

Sorry, but there's no evidence that Ungoliant ever left Beleriand. As it says of Shelob, in the chapter "Shelob's Lair":

There agelong she had dwelt, and evil thing in spider-form, even such as once of old had lived in the Land of the Elves in the West that is now under the Sea, such as Beren fought in the Mountains of Terror in Doriath, and so came to Lúthien upon the green sward amid the hemlocks in moonlight long ago. How Shelob came there, flying from ruin, no tale tells, for out of the Dark Years few tales have come. But still she was there, who was there before Sauron, and before the first stone of Barad-dûr; and she served none but herself, drinking the blood of Elves and Men, bloated and grown fat with endless brooding on her feasts, weaving webs of shadow; for all living things were her food, and her vomit darkness. Far and wide her lesser broods, bastards of the miserable mates, her own offspring that she slew, spread from glen to glen, from the Ephel Dúath to the eastern hills, from Dol Guldur and the fastnesses of Mirkwood. But none could rival her, Shelob the Great, last child of Ungoliant to trouble the unhappy world.

Take note of the two bolded lines. The first states that Shelob came originally from Beleriand and she came to Mordor "flying from ruin". Also note the last liine, where she is called the child of Ungoliant.

Then note the other bolded line, in which it seems to say quite clearly that there were spiders in Mirkwood descended of her. It seems quite clear to me that Tolkien intended in this passage that the spiders Bilbo faced to have been descendents of Shelob.

[JennyHallu]

In which case, they would still be, indirectly, the descendents of Ungoliant...so the point is mostly moot. How do they have descendants if we never hear of any boy Spiders?

[Tuor of Gondolin]

The Silmarillion says that Ungoliant headed south from Beleriand.

Melkor had promised to reward her, "Yea, with both hands", and after their flight from Valinor, the Dark Lord indeed gave her many gems of the Ñoldor, but withheld the Silmarils in his right hand. He refused to give them to the Great Spider to be devoured, for he desired them greatly, and Ungoliant would have slain Melkor in the ensuing battle had not the Balrogs come and saved their master, causing Ungoliant to flee to the Ered Gorgoroth in Beleriand.

While there, she had many offspring, as well as various creatures infesting the Ered Gorgoroth, which came to be a place of horror. The dates of her existence are not precisely known; in The Silmarillion, Quenta Silmarillion, Chapter 9, Of the Flight of the Noldor, we are told that she "went whither she would into the forgotten south of the world" shortly before the First Age, and that "some have said that she ended long ago, when in her uttermost famine she devoured herself at last." In contrast, a rough sketch of Earendil's voyages by Tolkien suggests that he slew Ungoliant in the south.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ungoliant

[Raynor]

Sorry, but there's no evidence that Ungoliant ever left Beleriand.

I disagree:

Originally Posted by Of the flight of the noldor

...and even after Ungoliant herself departed, and went whither she would into the forgotten south of the world, her offspring abode there and wove their hideous webs.

which is in accordance with the Lay of Earendil, HoME II (reffered to by wikipedia above), The Quenta, HoME IV:

To his aid came the Orcs and Balrogs that lived yet in the lowest places of Angband. With their whips of flame the Balrogs smote the webs asunder, but Ungoliant was driven away into the uttermost South, where she long dwelt.

and The Tale of Sun and Moon, HoME II:

Now Manwe designed the course of the ship of light to be between the East and West, for Melko held the North and Ungweliant the South

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Raynor

I disagree:

Perhaps an oversimplification on my part. Or a mis-memory.

The part pertinent to what I was saying is that there is no evidence that Ungoliant ever dwelt in Mirkwood or the surrounding locales.

Of course, I could make the case that "south" could still refer to Beleriand, since we are not informed exactly how far in that direction it extended, nor how far Ungoliant really went, but I shan't. I concede the point.

[Formendacil]

Diving in for a more thorough overall look at this chapter- and doing it before the posting of the next one, for a miracle- I have to say that it's never been a particular favourite of mine.

Not that it isn't well-CRAFTED. Tolkien does an excellent job of simultaneously moving the plot along and letting the reader feel the passage of time. Moreso than any other chapter in this book, I really feel the days pile up, and yet Tolkien never quite falls into the trap of over-describing the boredom.

On this note, one of the most vivid moments in this chapter, in my mind, is the "Butterfly Incident", when Bilbo (poor, scared-of-heights, Bilbo) climbs up the great tree, and gets a glimpse of the warm sun, and green treetops of summer, and the fluttering butterflies, and ascends temporarily from the gloom of his day-to-day life.

All the same, I sympathise a great deal with Bilbo in this chapter, getting progressively more hungry and more lost. Perhaps I sympathise too much, and that's why I don't like the chapter too much. Perhaps I'm too fond of Bilbo. If so, then kudos to the author!

[Thinlómien]

The songs on this chapter are really funny. I loved them when TH was read aloud to me and I find them amusing even nowadays 10 or 11 years later...

[Faramir Jones]

I was discussing the Mirkwood spiders, and about them being descendants of Shelob, at the recent Oxonmoot. I remembered that Tolkien, in this chapter, never makes any mention of the spiders' genders, not even using references like 'he' or 'she' when they speak.

This makes perfect sense in terms of the story being told from Bilbo's point of view. He was busy trying to save himself and his friends, and not interested in which of the spiders he fought and killed were boy or girl ones.