The Greatest of the Eldar

[Maédhros]

Tolkien does not put conditions or limitations on Luthien's greatness. The issue of her greatness isn't bound up in her deeds or her specific "powers," either. It was just damn good genetics.

I can agree with the fact that Luthien was the greatest overall elf.
What I was trying to know was what was the author intention when he wrote the quote provived by obloquy.
Is she the greatest artisan or warrior, etc. I don´t think so. I think that the author meant that she had the greatest overall spirit or qualities. She was the best overall, not in certain specifics areas.

[Lush]

I would say that Fëanor's spirit was perhaps too potent. Remember the meaning of his name: Spirit of Fire. All of these negative characteristics, I would argue, are not the product of having a weak spirit, but of an overly fiery one.

Feanaro, I think your definition of weakness, when applied to spirit, is different from mine. To me, any being who rages out of control is ultimately weak. To keep your cool requires much more strength than to freak out and go bezerk which is what our dear Fëanor did over and over again.
As for the relevance of this thread itself, I'm sure that "oblo" knew that someone would turn up to argue with him when he started it.

[ July 28, 2002: Message edited by: Lush ]

[Feanaro]

Indeed my definition of weakness (as I should have clarified) has to do with the potency of one's spirit, not the amount of self-control one has over oneself. Indeed Fëanor had little control over his passions. Control over oneself is not something I usually associate with one's spirit (but rather wisdom), hence the confusion and misinterpretation. But I fully agree that Fëanor was not in control of his own fiery nature.

[Lothiriel Silmarien]

This is very hard to pick, but I have read several times that Feanor was the greatest of the Eldar. So in my opinion I would think Feanor, Luthien, Finrod Felagund, Fingolfin, and galadriel. By the time of the War of the Ring, who else was there that old of the elves? Not a lot. Most of them were from Beleriand, and Galadriel did see the light of the two trees, so she was very old. And she grew wise every year.

[*Varda*]

I don't think Feanor was the greatest of the Eldar. Not in spirit anyway. He may have had a strong spirit, but in terms of purity it was arguably pretty weak.

I think Luthien was the greatest of the Eldar. As many have said, Tolkien placed no conditions on this. He said it was so, and as the author, his word is basically law.

[Maédhros]

He may have had a strong spirit, but in terms of purity it was arguably pretty weak.

In terms of passion, it was unsurpassed.

[Legolas]

What about Luthien's passion for Beren?

[Maédhros]

I believe that is what is called love.

[Legolas]

But you do recognize that love is a type of passion.

How do you contest that Feanor's passion surpasses that of Luthien?

In order to save unnecessary posts, I'll put the follow-up here too...

I was just wondering if that was a personal opinion or if it had a textual reference. No offense intended, nor an implication that you were wrong or right.

[ July 29, 2002: Message edited by: Legalos ]

[Maédhros]

How do you contest that Feanor's passion surpasses that of Luthien?

I don't have a quote from the books that says that.
I would say that Luthien's passion comes from outside, his love for Beren, while Feanor's comes more from within. Althought the silmarils were made of the blended light of the trees.

[Lush]

Lúthien loved Beren, and risked her life for him. Fëanor loved his creations, and, through his creations, he loved himself. I think there is a big difference here. Not in terms of the text, but in terms of my own views on life, Fëanor's passion is impure and misdirected. I don't know...I just don't like the guy. I view him as a bratty emotional weakling. Talented, yes, but whiny and irrational. Like a diva.

[Morgoth Bauglir]

I view him as a bratty emotional weakling. Talented, yes, but whiny and irrational. Like a diva. -Lush

How is he emotional?how is he weak?

[Legolas]

He had very little self control.

Edit: Perhaps he had some and chose not to display it openly.

[ July 30, 2002: Message edited by: Legalos ]

[Elendur]

I dont think you can say he had very little self control. Melkor deceived him and wove lies into his thoughts. How can an elf be expected to be so cunning as to perceive all of Melkors actions? It is like Hurin realizing he had been doing Melkors will after he was released from Thangorodrim only after he had done what Melkor wanted. Do you think Hurin also had little self control after withstanding Melkor for all those years?

Im not saying Feanor was without fault, but not all blame can be placed on him.

[Feanaro]

"I don't think Feanor was the greatest of the Eldar. Not in spirit anyway. He may have had a strong spirit, but in terms of purity it was arguably pretty weak."

Firstly, there's no need to think about it--Fëanor was not the greatest of the Eldar anyway. Secondly, self-control is not an aspect of one's spirit, and thus has no relevancy in determening whether Fëanor had a weak spirit. Thirdly, I have never before seen purity measured in terms of strength or weakness.

"The love of Finwe and Miriel was great indeed, for it began in the Blessed Realm in the Days of Bliss. But in the bearing of her son Miriel was consumed in spirit and body; and after his (Fëanor's) birth she yearned for release from the labour of living. And when she had named him, she said to Finwe: 'Never again shall I bear child; for strength that would have nourished the life of many has gone forth into Fëanor.'"

I think Tolkien was trying to get the image across that Fëanor's spirit was very potent.

[Lush]

Oh, I'm not placing all the blame on Fëanor, I'm just saying that I don't like the guy. And I think that lack of self-control is a weakness of spirit. It has to do with my religious views (which don't belond on a Tolkien forum anyway, but then there you go).

[the phantom]

I don't think Feanor particularly lacked self-control, I just think he was very resolute, didn't want to be anyone's b!%ch, didn't like his father getting killed, and didn't like his creations (which were beyond the reach of the Maia, probably even some of the Ainu) getting stolen by the same guy that corrupted him and killed his father!!!
Put yourself in his shoes. I think you would've gone on a mad revenge quest too. It was all about getting to Melkor. First, the Valar let the evil little rat run around free, secondly, he had robbed Feanor of his greatest treasures, Finwe (his father) and the Silmarils (the greatest things ever made with hands), and lastly, the Valar weren't going after Melkor to take him out. If I was Feanor I would've taken off after him too, and I would've been pretty ticked off if people had said that my actions were whiny, emotional, and impure after all I had been through.
He held a whole multitude of people to his will and even told off a herald of the Valar (who bowed to Feanor after Feanor spoke). He fought all alone at the front of the battlefield, surrounded by balrogs, and never retreated until he was struck down. Doesn't sound weak to me. An emotional weakling would've been cowed by the thought of going out away from protection and trying to take on an unbeatable enemy.
I think he did pretty well considering the most powerful being on earth, Melkor, was trying to destroy and corrupt him.
Feanor had the right idea with not practicing self-control. It wasn't the time for it, it was the time to overthrow Melkor. If the Valar had just gone with Feanor to overthrow Melkor, it wouldn't have been nearly as tough as it was later when they finally got our of their rocking chairs and did it. Feanor was trying to do what he knew had to be done, and wasn't gonna let the Valar or other elves stop him. It's not always time for self control!

(I apologize if I'm coming on too strong, but I'm very passionate about this topic. Since the first time I read Silmarilian, I've sympathized with Feanor, and admired his fire and resolute actions, and I think he did better than any of us would've done in his situation, unless you think it would've been better to sit in Valinor and cry while Melkor takes over the world.)

[Groin Redbeard]

Was Elrond an Eldar?

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Elrond was 9/16 Eldarin by blood. More important though is the fact that he was given the choice and elected to be an Elf.

[Eönwë]

First of all, what is greatness?
If you say potency of spirit, then I think Feanor had a very potent spirit. I seem to recall that when he died it turned his body to ash (obviously related to his name "fiery spirit")

WHy stick to only Eldar?
I mean there were some great elves that were not eldar. I think the non-eldar elves get too neglected in these sorts of things. As an example of one in LOR, I could give you Legolas, or his father Thranduil (who was more in the hobbit)

What about wisdom?
The wisest elf on ME is obiously Cirdan. He is the oldest elf that is not in Valinor and he has suffered many hardships. Not to mention that he gave his ring of power to Gandaf (ALso a sacrifice, might be a sign of greatness).

How does Luthien qualify to be Eldar?
Isn't it a bit strange that a half-elf can wualify as eldar? She is half divine, and her father only becomes Eldar through strange circumstances. Elu Thingol (or ELwe Singollo) is also a SIndar elf, remember that. And she is half MAiar. Anyone achieving demi-godliness is great.

BUt Luthien is not great because of being herself, or an eldar, neither is she geat for anything but her birth. She did not achieve greatness she just is great.
HOw can that be greatness. JUst because your mother is a goddess it shouldn't make you great.

Greatesss depends on what you mean: It could be potency of spirit, nobility of birth, divinity levels, beauty,strebght, warrior skill, crafting, wisdom, cunning, self-sacrifice, etc. Luthien only fits one of these things. Some Eldar fit many more. (I will discuss this in more detail, but it is late here)

[William Cloud Hicklin]

WHy stick to only Eldar?
I mean there were some great elves that were not eldar. I think the non-eldar elves get too neglected in these sorts of things. As an example of one in LOR, I could give you Legolas, or his father Thranduil (who was more in the hobbit)

Sorry, they were both Sindar, and therefore Eldar. Even if Legolas' mother was a Nando- well, the Nandor were Eldar too.

No Avar ever comes in to any of Tolkien's narratives.

[Galin]

According to The Lord of the Rings the East-elves were not Eldar however, nor their languages considered Eldarin. Thus most of the folk of Mirkwood and Lórien were not considered Eldar.

Still Thranduil was Eldarin, being Sindarin as noted.

[TheGreatElvenWarrior]

Cirdan wasn't an elf to my knowledge... I thought that Elves had nicely un- bearded faces and Cirdan had a beard.... Maybe I'm just strange...

[obloquy]

Cirdan was a first-generation Elda.

First of all, what is greatness?
If you say potency of spirit, then I think Feanor had a very potent spirit. I seem to recall that when he died it turned his body to ash (obviously related to his name "fiery spirit")

He did have a potent spirit, and he was one of the three greatest Eldar.

WHy stick to only Eldar?
I mean there were some great elves that were not eldar.

I'd be surprised if you could name some great Avari. Still, even if you can, they weren't as great as the Eldar.

What about wisdom?

The whole point of the original post is that Tolkien provided an unequivocal and (this part seems the hardest to grasp) unqualified answer to the question. It's not about what they were great at: just as Sauron is unquestionably Morgoth's greatest servant, Luthien is unquestionably the greatest of the Eldar, followed by Feanor and Galadriel--relative wisdom, might in battle, skill in crafts, etc. notwithstanding.

How does Luthien qualify to be Eldar?
Isn't it a bit strange that a half-elf can wualify as eldar? She is half divine, and her father only becomes Eldar through strange circumstances. Elu Thingol (or ELwe Singollo) is also a SIndar elf, remember that. And she is half MAiar. Anyone achieving demi-godliness is great.

Firstly, children of the Eldar are Eldar by birth. Otherwise Elwe and Cirdan would be the only ones mentioned in this thread who actually qualify as Eldar. Secondly, the first post in this thread contains direct quotations from Tolkien himself, so it's not a matter of opinion or debate. Also, I'm curious: why would you say that Elwe is an Elda only because of "strange circumstances"?

BUt Luthien is not great because of being herself, or an eldar, neither is she geat for anything but her birth. She did not achieve greatness she just is great.
HOw can that be greatness. JUst because your mother is a goddess it shouldn't make you great.

Have you even read the Silmarillion?

Greatesss depends on what you mean: It could be potency of spirit, nobility of birth, divinity levels, beauty,strebght, warrior skill, crafting, wisdom, cunning, self-sacrifice, etc. Luthien only fits one of these things. Some Eldar fit many more. (I will discuss this in more detail, but it is late here)

No, it doesn't. If it did, Tolkien would have qualified his declaration of greatness each time he made it. To Tolkien, it meant inner power--the metaphysical magnitude of a person. There's no need to discuss it more, because this is an open-and-shut case. If someone asks "Who is the greatest Elf?" the answer is, indubitably, Luthien Tinuviel. Why? Because Tolkien said so.

[TheGreatElvenWarrior]

Well, if it's what the Professor said, then that is true. Because he essentially is the creator of Middle-earth.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Galin,

Without getting into a 'my canon is better than your canon' fight, post-LR Tolkien definitely included the 'sylvan' Elves of Mirkwood and Lorien among the Eldar, coining the term Nandor for them and making them cousins of the Laiquendi of Ossiriand. Under that understanding, the "East-elves" are somewhere, well... farther East.

[Galin]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

Galin, Without getting into a 'my canon is better than your canon' fight, ...'

In which battle The Lord of the Rings is mighty strong but there is another approach in any case.

'... post-LR Tolkien definitely included the 'sylvan' Elves of Mirkwood and Lorien among the Eldar, coining the term Nandor for them and making them cousins of the Laiquendi of Ossiriand. Under that understanding, the "East-elves" are somewhere, well... farther East.'

Not necessarily. The Silvan Elves of Mirkwood and Lórien can still be East-elves and not Eldar when later (but 'unpublished') texts are considered.

'The Silvan Elves (Tawarwaith) were in origin Teleri, and so remoter kin of the Sindar, though even longer separated from them than the Teleri of Valinor.' (...) 'The Silvan Elves hid themselves in woodland fastnesses beyond the Misty Mountains, and became small and scattered people, hardly to be distinguished from Avari; but they still remembered that they were in origin Eldar, members of the Third Clan, and they welcomed those of the Noldor and especially the Sindar who did not pass over the Sea but migrated eastward [i.e. at the beginning of the Second Age].' Unfinished Tales

The Tawarwaith were in origin Teleri, hardly to be distinguished from Avari (which thus distinguishes them actually), and were in origin Eldar.

'Nandor. This name must have been made at the time, in the latter days of the March, when certain groups of the Teleri gave up the March; and it was especially applied to the large following of Lenwe who refused to cross the Hithaeglir. The name was often interpreted as 'Those who go back'; but in fact none of the Nandor appear to have returned, or to have joined the Avari. Many remained and settled in lands that they had reached, especially beside the River Anduin; some turned aside and wandered southwards'. Q&E

So, Mirkwood and Lórien: mostly 'East-elves' (The Lord of the Rings). The East-elves were probably a mix of Nandor (Eldar 'in origin') and Avari. The term Eldar becomes narrowed again to basically West-elves (it had been narrowed already in the internal history). This is not only a possible explanation (in my opinion), using both The Lord of the Rings and unpublished texts, but I note an earlier situation with respect to the Danas revealed in The History of Middle-Earth:

'In any case, the Danas are sufficiently characterised as Elves of the Great March who abandoned it early on but who still felt a desire for the West (...) Their position is anomalous, and might equally well be classified either as Eldarin or as not Eldarin.'

Christopher Tolkien, commentary The Lhammas HME V

[William Cloud Hicklin]

In QS, contemporary with the Lhammas, Tolkien had *all* the Danians eventually go on to Beleriand, without leaving any kin behind; and (consonant with the Lhammas quote) used the term Pereldar 'half-Eldar' for them. (Thus of course when the Lorien chapters were written the Elves of Lorien were seen as Avari save for Galadriel herself. In this connection Imrazor+Mithrellas isn't counted in the Appendices as a Man-Elda marriage. But under the later conception this can be regarded as a needed correction overlooked, like 'House of Finrod.'


In 'Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn' T says that Galadriel in Eregion had

come into contact with the Nandorin realm of Lorinand on the other side of the Misty Mountains. This was peopled by those Elves who forsook the Great Journey of the Eldar from Cuivienen and settled in the woods of the Vales of Anduin.... Many Sindar and Noldor came to live among them, and their 'Sindarizing' under the impact of Beleriandic culture began

No suggestion of Avari being present in the mix.

At any rate, for the purposes of this discussion, it's enough to observe that no named Avar ever appears, so it's silly to look among them for a 'great' Elf.

[Galin]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

In QS, contemporary with the Lhammas, Tolkien had *all* the Danians eventually go on to Beleriand, without leaving any kin behind; and (consonant with the Lhammas quote) used the term Pereldar 'half-Eldar' for them.

The point was simply that Tolkien could, and already had, thought of a group whose status as 'Eldar' might depend upon its application. Later (and basically) Eldar: originally all Elves ('People of the Stars'), narrows to 'Marchers' (properly excludes the Avari), and narrows to 'West Elves' (properly excludes the Silvan Elves or East-elves of Mirkwood and Lórien).

(Thus of course when the Lorien chapters were written the Elves of Lorien were seen as Avari save for Galadriel herself. In this connection Imrazor+Mithrellas isn't counted in the Appendices as a Man-Elda marriage. But under the later conception this can be regarded as a needed correction overlooked, like 'House of Finrod.'

But why disregard a prime source and the ultimate conception described in it to conclude a correction is needed? Mithrelass is a Silvan Elf, thus not an Elda. No correction needed.

Indeed in UT Mithrellas 'was of the lesser Silvan race (and not of the High Elves or the Grey)' Nimrodel was a Silvan Elf, and sought to pass over Sea. These Elves are not Eldarin because that are not of the Three Kindreds that sought for the Undying Realm and came there at the beginning of days, including not being Sindarin (who achieved Beleriand of course).

In 'Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn' T says that Galadriel in Eregion had (... edit quote). No suggestion of Avari being present in the mix.

But in other later but unpublished texts (like Quendi And Eldar) there are Avari in the mix, and I was including them. If one excludes the Avari, OK, but then the Nandor of these two realms are still not Eldar by its later, narrowed sense.

'Elves has been used to translate both Quendi, 'the speakers', the High-elven name of all their kind, and Eldar, the name of the Three Kindreds that sought for the Undying Realm and came there at the beginning of Days (save the Sindar only).' (RotK, Appendix F)

Or

'The Elves far back in the Elder Days became divided into two main branches: the West-elves (the Eldar) and the East-elves. Of the latter kind were most of the elven-folk of Mirkwood and Lórien; but their languages do not appear in this history, in which all the Elvish names and words are of Eldarin form.' Return of the King

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hickli

At any rate, for the purposes of this discussion, it's enough to observe that no named Avar ever appears, so it's silly to look among them for a 'great' Elf.

I can answer with one word:

Eöl

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Eol was *not* of the Avari, but of the Sindar.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

The Lord of the Rings hardly represents an "ultimate" conception.

Moreover, I find no warrant for a 'late' or 'final' formulation wherein "Eldar' has been narrowed to "Elves of Valinor + Sindar." The Eldar were those who embarked on the March, whether they finished it or not. The only change which occurred relative to the Silvans was the recognition that they were part of the March.

[Galin]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

The Lord of the Rings hardly represents an "ultimate" conception.

I meant ultimately published there, as opposed to your statement that Tolkien once thought the East-elves were Avari '... when the Lorien chapters were written'. One notes however, that Tolkien does not call the East-elves Avari in the 'ultimate' version sent off for publication, as opposed to a draft of something (the term Avari does not appear in The Lord of the Rings IIRC).

Moreover, I find no warrant for a 'late' or 'final' formulation wherein "Eldar' has been narrowed to "Elves of Valinor + Sindar." The Eldar were those who embarked on the March, whether they finished it or not. The only change which occurred relative to the Silvans was the recognition that they were part of the March.

Eldar being narrowed to West-elves is what Tolkien published. I look at it with respect to application of language rather than varying conceptions. No one seems to object that Elda took on the sense of Eldo 'One of the Marchers' and then properly excluded the Avari -- what is wrong then with the information in The Lord of the Rings? Nothing that I can see, not even the fact that Tolkien would decide that the Nandor began the March. Tolkien himself should have no problem with the fluidity of a term.

On Eol, Tolkien did consider the idea, but as Mr. Hicklin says and as CJRT notes...

'It is curious that - as in the original text of Maeglin, where he was 'of the kin of Thingol' - in my father's very late work on the story Eol becomes again 'one of the Eldar' (p. 328), though consumed with hatred of the Ñoldor; whereas here he is a Mornedhel (one of the Avari), and moreover of the aboriginal Second Clan.' CJRT, Quendi And Eldar

[William Cloud Hicklin]

But how are we to interpret "west-elves" and "East-Elves?" I'm not aware of any line on the map, but I feel comfortable that "the West-lands of Middle-earth" extended beyond the Hithaeglir. Rather like Ostrogoths and Visigoths- the West-goths were the ones who moved west first, even if many of their 'eastern' cousins eventually reached Western Europe as well. Similarly the West-elves/Eldar were those who left Cuivienen for the West, leaving their Refusenik brethren behind.

It's also worth observing that, although of course they occurred more or less by accident, Elvish place-names in The Hobbit such as Esgaroth are 'Ilkorin,' that is, the tongue of the Grey-elves under the old dispensation: a language which Tolkien derived (in theory) from Common Eldarin, not Primitive Quendian. This would suggest that the 'west-elven language group' extended at least as far as Erebor and the Sea of Rhun.

Or, from another angle: Tolkien tells us that there were no Avari in Beleriand (notwithstanding his vacillation with regard to Eol). Therefore the Green-elves were Eldar; and if they were then necessarily so also were the Danian Nandor.

[Galin]

Another way to view the distinction might not be so much with respect to the West Lands of Middle-earth of Frodo's day, but rather the West as in Over Sea plus Beleriand. And the Sindar (in general at least) had reached about as West as you could go without sailing Oversea. Note, from the Lhammas again (but just for comparison):

'This is very clear. The term Eldar has acquired its later significance of the Elves of the Great Journey (only), and is not restricted to those who in the end went to Valinor, but includes the Elves of Beleriand: the Eldar are those who completed the journey from Kuiviénen to the country between Eredlindon and the Sea.'

This seems a model for the later Eldar 'West-elves'.

'On the other hand all Elves who did depart from Kuiviénen but who did not complete that journey are numbered among the Lembi. The term Ilkorindi is now used in a much narrower sense than previously: specifically the Eldar of Beleriand -- the later Sindar, or Grey Elves.'

In Lhammas A the Eldar are the departed, including those that went to Valinor and those that reached Beleriand but remained there -- while the Lembi includes those that remained in the East and those that were lost on the journey to Beleriand. This seems an early model for East-elves, though revision was to follow of course.

If 'the Elves far back in the Elder Days became divided into two main branches' the movements of the Nandor spreading into Eriador, and finally entering Beleriand may not have changed the fact that they essentially were considered East-elves. For example, even entering Beleriand 'somewhat later' might have carried a distinction in the minds of the Sindar: 'Moerbin was similarly an equivalent for Avari; but that it did not mean only 'Dark-elves' is seen by its ready application to other Incarnates, when they later became known. By the Sindar anyone dwelling outside Beleriand, or entering their realm from outside, was called a Morben.' Q&E

[Ghazi]

Originally Posted by obloquy

The greatest of all the Eldar was Luthien Tinuviel. Now this question never has to be asked again!

I disagree as well because Luthien wasn't one of the Eldar. Eldar are those Elves who saw the light of the Two Trees. Luthien is disqualified because even if one considers her an Elf, which I don't, she never saw the Two Trees. I don't consider her an Elf because she was born half Maia, half Elf and died a human. How does that make one an Elf?

[obloquy]

Originally Posted by Ghazi

I disagree as well because Luthien wasn't one of the Eldar. Eldar are those Elves who saw the light of the Two Trees. Luthien is disqualified because even if one considers her an Elf, which I don't, she never saw the Two Trees. I don't consider her an Elf because she was born half Maia, half Elf and died a human. How does that make one an Elf?

Tolkien must not have understood the meaning of the word. Boy, I'm glad we've got such sharp folks around here!

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by obloquy

Have you even read the Silmarillion?

Yes, I have, and though I must admit that Kuthien did some pretty amazing things, I think Cirdan beats her in that area. (I would give an example, but I haven't got much time now, maybe later)

Originally Posted by obloquy

Also, I'm curious: why would you say that Elwe is an Elda only because of "strange circumstances"?

Because though he did "behold the light" he is also of the Sindar (If Sindar does not count as Eldar). He is both an Elda and a Sinda. He refused to go to Valinor, so he is of the Úmanyar as well (I think, correct me if I am wrong, but I know he is a Sinda)

[Lalaith]

I'm so glad this thread has been bumped up...the first page always made me laugh a lot. I just wish the graph was still visible.

[Galin]

The Sindar are Eldar -- they were part of the Great March and reached Beleriand.

Eldar The Elves of the Great Journey out of the East to Beleriand.

List of Names , The Children of Húrin

'... and Eldar, the name of the Three Kindreds that sought for the Undying Realm and came there at the beginning of Days (save the Sindar only).' (RotK, Appendix F)

That's the short (fairly recent) version from Christopher Tolkien. And JRRT on Eldar according to The Lord of the Rings.