How can hope and despair be akin?

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Hello, pretties.

So I'm all set to start work on my dissertation (finally). I'm going to be writing about the meaning of life. My general take on this is that life is meaningless. What I'm really interested in discussing in my paper, though, is whether this would be cause for happiness or despair—because there's a long history in philosophy of writers being dismayed by such conclusions.

Now, there's a beautiful line in The Return of the King, spoken by Aragorn. Here it is:

"We come now to the very brink, where hope and despair are akin."

I'd love to work it into the essay if at all possible! But that's secondary. What I really want to ask you lovely people is what you make of the line, because it's meaning doesn't strike me as particularly clear.

What was 'Gorn saying?

[Alchisiel]

I always thought that it meant that you can't have hope without first despair. You can't have one without the other. They belong together.

[Roa_Aoife]

My, that's quite a topic you've chosen. I hope you didn't bite off more than you can chew.

When can hope and despair be "akin"? Quite simply, when the object these terms are aplied to is the same. In this instance, Aragorn is either refering to Frodo bearing the Ring into Mordor, the one place we simultaneously want it not be and be, or to the "diversion," where many are despairing and certain of death to preserve the hope of still many more.

[dancing spawn of ungoliant]

RotK, The Last Debate:

"'We must walk open-eyed into that trap, with courage, but small hope for ourselves. For, my lords, it may well prove that we ourselves shall perish utterly in a black battle far from the living lands; so that even if Barad-dûr be thrown down, we shall not live to see a new age. But this, I deem, is our duty. And better so than to perish nonetheless - as we surely shall, if we sit here - and know as we die that no new age shall be.'

They were silent for a while. At length Aragorn spoke. 'As I have begun, so I will go on. We come now to the very brink, where hope and despair are akin. To waver is to fall. Let none reject the councels of Gandalf, whose long labours against Sauron come at last to their test.'"


I understand it thusly: Gandalf has suggested making a diversion which will practically be a suicide. That's the despair part. But by doing this, they help Frodo to accomplish his task and save Middle-earth, so there's some hope, too.

At this point, it seems to Aragorn and his lot that there isn't one without the other; hope and despair are now related. If they are afraid to sacrifice themselves for a greater good, even though it's possible that the diversion won't even work, there sure is no hope for defeating Sauron. However, if they are ready to put their lives at stake, there's a chance to succeed.

Edit: cross-posted.

[Hookbill the Goomba]

The hope of one side may be the despair of another. The Ring was the hope of the enemy, but the despair of the 'good guys'. On the same note, The Ring was the despair of the enemy (in being destroyed) but the hope of the good people.
That's how it seems to me.

[Farael]

Can I still answer if I'm not a 'prettie'?

I've always read that sentence as an explanation of the 'hope beyond hope' the characters had. After hope there is despair (for I hope we all agree that once hope is completely gone, the strife is as good as lost) yet sometimes after 'logic' says there should be no hope, there is hope nonetheless. I can't recall where I heard it, but there is a saying that goes "As long as there is life, there is also hope" and it applies to this 'akin-ness' of hope and despair. The situation is really grim, odds are so against them that there is really no realistic reason to believe in anything but a -probably very painful- death. Yet they still have hope, even if it is the only thing they have in their favour. That's where hope and despair are akin, because despair is so terrible that some people choose to hope against hope. And sometimes (as in LoTR) it works out well for those who never despaired.

[Anguirel]

Originally Posted by Roa_Aoife

My, that's quite a topic you've chosen. I hope you didn't bite off more than you can chew.

Is that a challenge?

This is a fascinating topic. I think that pretty Farael is very much on the light lines. I will return for a detailed stab. In the meantime, I lay an interdict on anyone bringing up the Nirnaeth Arnoediad...

[Esgallhugwen]

Now I havn't read the books for a long while (more then I would like to admit). But I believe he said that line when they were nearing Mordor, were they not?

In any case, I believe this is what he meant. Or at least my take on it which might be less eloquent then what I'm going for.

*Ahem*

"We come now to the very brink, where hope and despair are akin."

Now if your dissertation is about the meaning of life I'll stick to that as close as I can.

In my personal experience, and here I go opening up to you weird people that I love, when I've come closest to despair that's when I hope the most. I hope long and hard that everything will turn out ok. I have no doubt that most people do the same, that when the darkest hours seem to be hanging over their head that's when they realize what kind of person they are. The one that hopes or the one that despairs, the one that fights or the one that flees.

Hope and despair are constants throughout our lives, which I suppose is a huge flaming "Duh!", but I felt like saying it just to spite those people.

What it all comes down to is this. Death. When all our life is summed up in one final moment, when the burdens of our lives are weighed by whichever deity we put our faith in in life (unless you're atheist). Death is one interpretation of the "brink" and what are we to do when the end is upon us? Hope knowing that you'll be safe in either death or that you'll live through it, or despair because you know of the inevitable.

And in a place like Mordor it's no wonder these two traits of humanity are akin. The hearts and souls of the men of Gondor and of the Mark soar at times with hope in their future and at other times are crushed by the futility of despair. It's the beauty and the curse of life.

Life in itself is meaningless until ones deeds are measured at the time of death by the power's that be. Death is what makes life mean something, it gives us the hope to carry on for something better after our existance (or until our next life) but it also gives rise to despair and the questions such as "what's the point of it all?".

Now before I become even more like Gandalf with my long windedness (and perhaps I've left nothing to be gained from this post) I digress. Perhaps someone can put it into words better then I can.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

"We come now to the very brink, where hope and despair are akin."

I must put it even more simply than "death" and mention that my first thought was at Change. With a capital 'C'.

Note that life is cyclic. The water cycle. Spring to summer to autumn to winter and back. Day to night, night to day. The tides. The beginning of a life is the start on a pathway to death while a death allows other lives to flourish. Everything is interconnected and everything changes... but the more it changes, the more it seems to stay the same.

Hope and despair tend to be more seperate to most minds. One "man"'s hope is another man's despair. Sauron's hope is Gandalf's vision of a really bad idea. In certain situations, however, once things have changed, the terms become inseperable, which is what I think 'Gorn was getting at.

Think in terms of Frodo: his greatest hope was to succeed in the task. In order to carrying this out, he knew that he was very likely going to die. Not a pretty picture, but a clear one: in order to do what he must, he must make the ultimate sacrifice. His was truly selfless a decision... for the sake of the world's peace and survival, he was willing to go through torment and finally death with little or no recognition and little chance for success.

The term that comes to mind is "bittersweet". Life is tinged with death, hope is tinged with despair. Every beginning must have an end and every beginning must follow one. As soon as something changes, one must embrace the future while sadly letting go of the past.

Whether my thoughts make sense to anybody but me, I can't be sure. But I hope they help.

I don't suppose I've ever thought about it before, but hope and despair are almost polar opposites, at least where Dictionary.com is concerned.

Anyway, I'd say that Aragorn's statement reflects your theory on the meaninglessness of life: It only mattered that they succeeded in thier struggle, for the benefit of the future, and whether or not they perished in the attempt was secondary.

[narfforc]

How many of you have been to THE BRINK. I have survived two failed marriages, both due to unfaithful females. Further to this, my mother ran off with another man when I was eight. I know what despair is, it is my companion. I still know what hope is, for that is part of my life. Both of them battle constantly within me. How can you teach someone to trust, when it leads to pain. Hope is what you do, despair is when your hope fails.

[davem]

Its a paradox, & I don't think there's a rational explanation for it. Thiings are different 'at the very brink'.

Take another statement, this time by the narrator, in The Field of Cormallen:

And all the host laughed and wept, and in the midst of their merriment and tears the clear voice of the minstrel rose like silver and gold, and all men were hushed. And he sang to them, now in the Elven-tongue, now in the speech of the West, until their hearts, wounded with sweet words, overflowed, and their joy was like swords, and they passed in thought out to regions where pain and delight flow together and tears are the very wine of blessedness.

There's a point where opposites are transcended, where thesis & antithesis are pushed as far as they can be & produce synthesis. What Jung callled the Transcendent Function. The tension produced by two opposing forces produces a third thing which is more than the sum of its parts.

Or maybe it doesn't mean anything & Aragorn was just trying to sound clever.....

[Child of the 7th Age]

Narfforc,

I am sorry. You may be less alone than you think. Few people come to the prime of their life without going through some very tough things. In the case of our family, we lost our first born daughter to SIDS. When we checked on her at 2 am, she was fine. When we went back two hours later, she lay silent in her crib. The hext year was very hard for us.

Tolkien seems to have know a lot about sadness. He lost both his father and mother at a young age. He saw his relatives turn upon his mother because she chose a faith different than their own. He went off to a senseless war just out of university and saw the dreams of his closest friends end with their death. Even in his marriage to his beloved Edith, there is evidence of tension and times of difficult adjustment. Everything his biographers have said tells us that he was a person who felt things deeply. He definitely had his ups and downs. He could be moody one moment and joyous the next. He seems to have fought depression at times.

The marvel is that, out of all this, Tolkien still found meaning. That meaning is emblazoned in his writing. If he could speak of despair and hope being akin on the brink, that was because it came from deep within himself. I do think there are times in life when a person's greatest hope is also their greatest despair. Our son was born nine months after the death of his sister. We were grieving for the one and welcoming the other. Just as others have said, Tolkien's characters faced difficult situations, and these situations encompassed both hope and despair. I think Aragorn's quote does not just apply to this particular scene in question, but to the entire book. It is a common theme that runs through Tolkien's writings: the intermingling of the bitter and the sweet.

The destruction of the Ring would mean the end of a great evil: it would also signal the departure of the Elves and much else that was magical from Middle-earth. If Aragorn did the right thing and took up his duty, he might forestall the victory of Sauron but he would virually guarantee his own death and his separation from Arwen. Who can read the plight of the Ents and their response to Saruman and not sense that both hope and despair lay behind their actions: a determination to push back the evil that Isengard represented and a recognition of the fact that their own part in the unfoldidng music of Arda was soon to be over.

To put it bluntly, there is no joy that does not have its down side, at least as long as we dwell in this imperfect world. What gets us through is our ability to see both sides of things. Even in our greatest moment of despair, tiny hope takes root and grows, and, in our time of tragedy and fear, we go on because there is still that distant possibility of hope. Sometimes, hope seems far away and sometimes closer, but Tolkien tells us it is there, along with the despair.

Eomer - I'm afraid I haven't helped your thesis. I don't honestly know how you could quote Tolkien in an essay that argues life is meaningless. You could make a good argument, and quote many other philosphers and writers, but I can't see Tolkien belonging in that group. In any case, great luck with your scholarly endeavors!

[Lalwendë]

Warning: depressing post.

About life being meaningless. I can't say it's the same for everyone, but when I saw this out of control vehicle bearing down on me and knowing there was nothing I could do to get out of the way, in that split second obviously I had no hope whatsoever and was ready to die. I wasn't frightened. What did I honestly feel? A huge sense of disappointment! I thought "Oh, right, so this is how it happens. Damn." I can't forget that.

Hope and despair came into it later. I think both are only truly understood when we experience the depths that life has to offer, and for some this can come at a very young age, for others it happens later in life as the events we have been through take their toll. Some people are lucky and never experience true desperation. One of the reasons LotR has stayed as such a significant book for me is that it has reflected changes in my own life as I have got older and I find new ways of understanding it - one of those I like to think is understanding despair.

Anyone who has suffered depression will understand why hope and despair are akin, as the despair may take you down to the bottom of a very dark well, but the hope is the tiny chink of light that helps guide you out again, even if you do not realise it for some time. If the hope was not there then the despair would take over.

In Tolkien's work so many people find themselves on these brinks, some find the hope while others do not. Or should it be Hope as opposed to hope? It is a more significant thing to experience Hope than it is to have hope that it does not rain. If you are not at the brink of despair then really you have no need for Hope, so it is at that point when we recognise it. I think Despair is an irrational feeling, and so is Hope, but they are responses to situations that seem irrational to us.

[davem]

From the Athrabeth:

'What is hope?' she (Andreth) said. 'An expectation of good, which though uncertain has some foundation in what is known? Then we have none.'
'That is one thing that Men call "hope",' said Finrod. 'Amdir we call it, "looking up". But there is another which is founded deeper. Estel we call it, that is "trust". It is not defeated by the ways of the world, for it does not come from experience, but from our nature and first being. If we are indeed the Eruhin, the Children of the One, then He will not suffer Himself to be deprived of His own, not by any Enemy, not even by ourselves. This is the last foundation of Estel, which we keep even when we contemplate the End: of all His designs the issue must be for His Children's joy. Amdir you have not, you say. Does no Estel at all abide?'

Its perhaps a problem with the 'translation' of Aragorn's words - both Estel & Amdir can be translated as 'hope', but while Amdir & despair can be 'one' in certain circumstances, Estel & despair cannot...

[Estelyn Telcontar]

I disagree, davem. I think it is precisely Estel that can be the only kind of hope present in the face of despair!

[davem]

Originally Posted by Esty

I disagree, davem. I think it is precisely Estel that can be the only kind of hope present in the face of despair!

Maybe I wasn't clear - when I said:

while Amdir & despair can be 'one' in certain circumstances, Estel & despair cannot..

I meant that while Amdir ('looking up'/optimism) can become akin with despair, ie linked in the mind, indistinguishable, cancel each other out (or whatever Aragorn meant), Estel ('trust'/faith in Eru) will always remain a seperate thing, & cannot, by its nature, become akin with despair. Despair may drive out Estel, but it will never become 'akin', let alone the same thing.

[Cailín]

Hmm.

Though hope is essentially seen as a word with a positive meaning, I don’t think it’s always so. You often hear people say: “All we can do now is hope” and that is often paired with a sigh or a depressed look. Hoping is not really ‘fun’. It’s what you do when all else has failed. In that sense I think hoping is closer to despair than anything else in the world: because when hope fails, there is only despair left, but while a person refrains from merely hoping and actually goes out and do something possibly productive, despair is still a long way off.

I think it’s quite likely Aragorn was just trying to sound deep and meaningful, but otherwise I’d explain it along the same lines as Farael seems to be doing. However, as I more or less said above, I personally believe hope and despair are always akin and so closely related it may not be a paradox at all.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

Hope and despair came into it later. I think both are only truly understood when we experience the depths that life has to offer, and for some this can come at a very young age, for others it happens later in life as the events we have been through take their toll.

Very true. Many older folks look at the younger generations and think "They can't possibly understand.", somehow forgetting what it was like to be young and in pain. The worst is still the worst for an individual, no matter how much worse the worst was for another. I know that that's a choppy sentence, but I can't think of a better way to convey it.

I'm 18. Even close friends don't know what my worst was. Two, maybe three, people in the world have a pretty decent idea. They look at me and see the kind of annoying person that is good at just about everything she does. To quote a friend, I "have all the luck". Untrue. I've felt more deeply than I care to remember. My "luck" disappeared on me for quite length of time. My worst was bad by anyone's standards. But you know what? The worst gives you hope. It's not that hope finds its way through, forcing it's way past the darkness that Lal describes here:

Originally Posted by Lal

Anyone who has suffered depression will understand why hope and despair are akin, as the despair may take you down to the bottom of a very dark well, but the hope is the tiny chink of light that helps guide you out again, even if you do not realise it for some time. If the hope was not there then the despair would take over.

When you hit despair, you know that there's only one way to go. Things can't get any worse. You hope like hell that this really is despair. Talk about a backwards idea, but follow it for a moment: when you sink that low, you want nothing more than for it to be rock bottom. You know that once you're there, the only way for your life to go is up. That's slightly comforting. The hope comes in in terms of "Please, please let this be a worst, because if I get a papercut in the next thirty seconds..."

I remember discussing death with counselors. I've been told by many that a person is least suicidal when they've hit despair. They're too exhausted to bother and they know deep down that it can't get any worse. The most worry comes just a bit before despair... when things really suck and the person is terrified that it will only get worse. Despair allows for hope on the part of the individual, on the part of his or her friends, on the part of everyone. Once you hit despair, you can go through life with the philosophy "Hey, I've lived through ____. It's not like it can get any worse." That's quite cheerful, in a cynical sort of way. You know that if you could handle what you already did, you can handle something else. A whimsical example was last term's term paper. I look at this term with this philosophy: "I got an A on a 20 page term paper about literary theory. I can handle this term's 10 page paper." or "I had X professor last term. I can handle anyone's class now."

You know that you've worked your hardest, you hit despair, and you bounced back (even if it was an itty bitty bounce that didn't go very high the first time). Once despair is in the picture, hope is also.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Thank you very much for your answers. I do hope no-one has gotten too upset by replying to or reading this.

It's an interesting subject on its own so I hope you'll continue to post some thoughts; but I'm realising that the contrast I was originally thinking about was between happiness or content and despair, rather than hope and despair.

Big difference. Thanks!

[Child of the 7th Age]

Eomer,

Certainly don't apologize. You've obviously hit a chord for many of us or we wouldn't be furiously scribbling.

Yes, your contrast between "despair" and "contentment/happiness" certainly holds. I think both hope and despair involve a deep emotional response. Content/happiness to me does not connote that depth of emotional involvement as we experience in either hope or despair (in contrast to "joy", for example). In that sense, hope and despair are much closer to one another than despair and happiness/contentment.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Child, I had indeed intended to throw joy in with happiness. I am familiar with the supposed difference between the two but I'm not sure of its merit (or whether it's relevant to what I'm writing about).

I would put despair/unhappiness/(even) melancholy on one side (and I know this is extremely simplistic) with joy/happiness/contentment on the other.

What your responses have shown me is that the concept of hope really doesn't fit in with what I want to say.

[Child of the 7th Age]

I understand. Although I am not a Christian, my own perception of "joy" (sehnsucht) is heavily influenced by C. S. Lewis and other "romantics" who view it as a special kind of longing or a cosmic pointer.

[Roa_Aoife]

Indeed, though I would venture to say that contentment is much deeper than happiness. I myself have never put much stock in surface emotions, and tend to discount them if they go against reason. (Just call me Dr. Spock.) What I mean by "surface emotions" are those feelings that come and go easily. Good moods, bad moods, happiness, sadness, anger, frustration, fear- all of these come and go depending on our body chemistry. There is little to no meaning or depth in them.

All of these have deeper counter parts, though; things that stay with us, that last. These come from our very souls, and are an outpouring of our hearts. Joy, rage, sorrow, etc. The outside world cannot affect them so well as the inside can. This what is inside you, deep within, and they make up your inner being.

As for contentment, love, peace, etc- I would not call these emotions so much as choices. I choose to love someone, whether I feel like it or not. Those of you who are/were married know that you don't always feel like loving your spouse, but you can choose to do so anyway. I choose to be content with my life. I may do something to change it, but I can be content while waiting.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Not sure if this is related to Tolkien at all but I'm not sure I agree with you, Roa. From a biological perspective, I don't think there's any difference between rage and anger, or between joy and happiness.

Joy, and my dictionary backs me up, is just a strong happiness.

Although this is an interesting discussion, perhaps it's gone too far past that Aragorn quotation.

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

My initial thought is that both hope and despair are directed toward the future so in that way they are alike. You hope for a good outcome and are in despair when you fear a bad one.

More specifically both are wrapped up in desire -- you hope for the outcome you desire but despair that your desire will not be achieved. When I look at it this way it seems to me that perhaps rather than representing opposite states of mind or emotion hope and despair are two ways of describing the same feeling...? Or more simply, you can't have one without the other because both exist upon the same precondition: imperfect knowledge.

If you know for an absolute fact that your desire is going to be fulfilled then you aren't experiencing hope but expectation. If you know for an absolute fact that your desire is going to be denied then you aren't experiencing despair but sadness. Hope is made hope only insofar as it exists alongside the fear that you won't gain your desire; despair is made despair only insofar as it exists alongside the possibility that maybe you could were circumstances different.

So perhaps when Aragorn find at the "brink" that "hope and despair are akin" he is confronting the fact that the future is at an absolute crisis -- the future is itself torn between the conquest of evil and evil's triumph. The hope (rather than the absolute knowledge) that Sauron will fail exists only because of the despairing thought that he won't; the despair (rather than the absoulte knowledge) that he will triumph exists only because there's still hope that he won't.

To desire something necessarily engenders hope and despair: having something to desire gives you hope that you will have it, but it also becomes something that you despair about losing. At the moment Aragorn makes his statement the desire felt by himself and his followers is as painfully accute as it is profound -- they don't just desire a precious object or another person or even a better future but the fall of Sauron. Their desire is that the whole course of history will be altered from bad to good -- that the fundamental nature of their world will be changed forever and that evil as an incarnate force in their lives will disappear.

[HerenIstarion]

hope and despair are directed toward the future

Verily, but not solely. More often than not they both look back to the past, but despair more so - I hope (amdir) things will go well as they always did go well in the past, I despair for everything is already lost (in the past, even if this 'past' was minute ago), and there is nothing to look forward to - hope (amdir) for any more.

Estel is in present - I believe that all His designs are for my good (and for my joy), and I do the 'believing' now. Both Amdir and despair need reason or cause (coming, again, from the past), Estel does not - there is no reason to believe, one just does or does not. I agree with davem - Estel can not be akin to despair, the very belief excludes possibility of despair, whilst Amdir surely can.

PS Almost forgot about 'akin' - they are akin as they cross at one point - Frodo is Aragorn's reason to hope or to despair. Hope-estel makes him fight, but he can't help going on hoping (amdir) and despairing, for here he has cause and reason - frail thread (as Gandalf told Theoden) on which the fate is suspended:

As I have begun, so I will go on. We come now to the very brink, where hope and despair are akin. To waver is to fall. Let none now reject the counsels of Gandalf, whose long labours against Sauron come at last to their test

There are all three here - estel, amdir and despair. The way of action (for hope and despair here are not expressions of idle state, but of the action) chosen at the Council of Elrond is the mix of hope and despair - for every step they take through the book is indeed 'walking on the brink'. And estel (Hope in Eru) is expressed through Gandalf - 'let none now reject...'

PPS I've been a bit hasty yesterday - I did not intend to say that the meaning Aragorn may be putting into the phrase comes down only to my PS. As in other matters, Tolkien is like Shrek and onions - many-layered. For two, Aragorn may indeed be 'being clever' - meaning that highly paradoxical turn of phrase is intended to wind up his listeners, make them feel urgent importance of matters being discussed.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

I know it doesn't matter any more, but just in case anyone was wondering, I've changed my mind on the topic. Life is meaningful, I do believe. See what study and contemplation can do? Now I'm much more in keeping with the spirit of Tolkien.

Stay in school, kids.