Stupid Elf Tricks...

[Gurthang]

This may have been brought up before, but I have not seen it. Thus the creation of this thread.

Everyone knows, and most despise, Legolas' Mumakil stunt in RotK. Likewise, we find the drinking contest in TTT rather far-fetched and disturbing. Both scenes make Legolas look too much like superman rather than just an elf. This is bothersome because he is just that: an elf.

But what I think most of us overlook is our princeling's little trick in the Fellowship. Now, most of you are probably wondering what I am talking about, and I would have done the same until this thought suddenly came upon me. I'm talking about Legolas' little battle with the cave troll in Moria.

Now, at the time I probably laughed a little 'that was a bit over the top' laugh when I first saw the movie, but let it slide. But it really is about equally improbable as the other two occurences. The fact that he tight-rope walks a moving chain onto the back of a live troll and then just stands there for a second to draw his bow and shoot it in the head is as close to impossible as makes no difference. He then lithely hops down when the thing begins to swing in circles. Not something you'd see just anybody doing. Well, not something Legolas should be doing, anyway.

But what I'm wondering, apart from if anyone agrees with me, is why do we all overlook this scene? Many of us say that PJ got more and more over the top as the movies came out, but this shows the three to be more consistent than we first thought. So why are we always pointing to the other two stunts and forgetting this one?

[Essex]

Yes, it's almost as ridiculous as putting on a magic ring that would make you invisible...........

[The Saucepan Man]

... or an Elf running on snow without making an imprint ...

[Gurthang]

Fine, Essex, you're right; in the context of a fantasy world anything is possible. My point was that people seem to nit-pick Legolas for his later stunts, but they ignore the one that I saw in the Fellowship. That's what doesn't make sense to me.

[The Saucepan Man]

I would cite two main reasons.

First, as you hinted in your opening post, it is the first time that we see a Legolas "stunt", so it doesn't stand out particularly in the scheme of things.

Secondly, it is more in keeping with Legolas' nature as an agile Elven warrior. The shield surfing (which I don't like) and the Oliphaunt climbing (to a lesser extent, in my opinion) are more likely to "break the spell" and take us out of the story because they are less in keeping with the Legolas we know from the book and also, possibly, because we are catching on that Legolas "stunts" are becoming "set-piece" features of the films.

I would note that another Legolas moment that seems to attract little criticism is his twisting leap onto the back of his moving horse, although I still maintain that it was an anatomically impossible feat.

[Roa_Aoife]

Perhaps not anatomically impossible, but certainly in violation of the laws of Physics. Saucy makes good points, but I think another reason these stunt stand out so much is their incredible similarity to extreme sports. Legolas looks less like an Elf doing typical Elf stuff, and more like a skateboarder or surfer. It certainly breaks some of the believability when we are confronted with something so modern and familiar when we are supposed to be drawn into a strange and ancient world.

[Glirdan]

But see, the thing with that is that tight-rope walking, no matter how uncommon it is, is still, technically, a modern day thing. I think this one is over looked because of the fact that after the snow walking thing (which I really don't like), everyone thinks that Legolas can do anything. That was the impression I got. I think the other thing is that PJ wanted to develop the Elves a little more than they were described in the books. In the books, Elves are described as being light footed and agile. All of the stunts in the movies show this characteristic of the Elves. The ones in the Fellowship more so than the ones later on.

Saucy, I agree with you about Legolas's little twirl onto the horse. I thought it was cool at first, but now it just bugs me to the point of death. I hate it when he goes and defies the laws of gravity!!

[Carorëiel]

I agree that some of Legolas' stunts are a bit over-the-top, but I think the walking-on-snow thing is held up by the text. In "The Ring Goes South," we get the following:

"Legolas watched them for a while with a smile upon his lips, and then he turned to the others. 'The strongest must seek a way, say you? But I say: let a ploughman plough, but choose an otter for swimming, and for running light over grass and leaf, or over snow--an Elf.'

With that he sprang forth nimbley, and then Frodo noticed as if for the first time, though he had long known it, that the Elf had no boots, but wore only light shoes, as he always did, and his feet made little imprint in the snow."

Granted, the text doesn't actually say that Legolas walks on top of the snow, but I don't think it's too big a leap. I always saw his walking on the snow in the film as a nod to this scene in the book.

Originally Posted by Gurthang

This may have been brought up before, but I have not seen it. Thus the creation of this thread.

Everyone knows, and most despise, Legolas' Mumakil stunt in RotK. Likewise, we find the drinking contest in TTT rather far-fetched and disturbing. Both scenes make Legolas look too much like superman

hey, i take offense to that

[mormegil]

I agree with Carorëiel and was actually looking up this quote and noticed that it was just posted. Glirdan, I believe what the point Saucey was making is that Legolas was walking on the snow with little imprint and that's not technically possibly yet in a fantasy world it is.

Though more on topic I don't see any major problem with this particular stunt. There needs to be some amazing things happening here. It wouldn't be, cinematically speaking, as interesting if Leggy merely shot him from a distance and the battle was over. While this is a bit over the top that is all it is. The other stunts are more exorbitant in their realism and more of a gratuitous insert to make the women swoon (coughbethberrycough) , especially the shield surfing.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Not just the women, Morm. I too find the stunts swoonworthy.

People get bothered by different things. Stupid, funny, cool things like Oliphaunt stunts are fine by me. It's character defamation that makes me shake my head.

[Tuor of Gondolin]

Glirdan

Saucy, I agree with you about Legolas's little twirl onto the horse. I thought it was cool at first, but now it just bugs me to the point of death. I hate it when he goes and defies the laws of gravity!!
Saucy, I agree with you about Legolas's little twirl onto the horse. I thought it was cool at first, but now it just bugs me to the point of death. I hate it when he goes and defies the laws of gravity!!

Hmm. And how would "The leap of Beren" (when he was
ticked off with the elf Bad Boys) compare?

[Roa_Aoife]

There's a thread that discusses the "walking-on-snow" thing to some length in the New Comer forum. Here.

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by mormegil

I believe what the point Saucey was making is that Legolas was walking on the snow with little imprint and that's not technically possibly yet in a fantasy world it is.

Indeed. My point was that some characters, including Legolas, display "superhuman" abilities in the book. So, it is hardly fair to criticise Jackson for portraying the same or similar abilities, solely because they are improbable in our terms.

Originally Posted by Roa_Aoife

Saucy makes good points, but I think another reason these stunt stand out so much is their incredible similarity to extreme sports. Legolas looks less like an Elf doing typical Elf stuff, and more like a skateboarder or surfer.

Quite so. That's the point that I was grappling for, but didn't quite get hold of. You put it very well. It's why the shield-surfing rankles with me, while the other "stunts" don't particularly bother me. It's more Tony Hawkes than Middle-earth, and so it "breaks the spell" and takes me out of the fantasy world.

Originally Posted by Roa_Aoife

Perhaps not anatomically impossible, but certainly in violation of the laws of Physics.

As I recall, it seemed to me when I watched that sequence that it necessarily involved Legolas' arm passing through his upper body. Or something like that. "Superhuman" abilities I can live with. Anatomically impossible maneuvres I cannot.

[HerenIstarion]

Originally Posted by SpM

or an Elf running on snow without making an imprint

Hear! Hear!

LoTR, The Ring Goes South

With that he [Legolas - H-I] sprang forth nimbly, and then Frodo noticed as if for the first time, though he had long known it, that the Elf had no boots, but wore only light shoes, as he always did, and his feet made little imprint in the snow

That is 'two big differences', as they say. What is that wonderful in making little imprint when not wearing heavy boots and being nimble and agile and light-footed and not that heavy at all, eh? On a crisp snow crust?

Originally Posted by Essex

as putting on a magic ring that would make you invisible...

Hear! Hear!

The Hobbit, Riddles in the Dark

...and if you slipped that ring on your finger, you were invisible; only in the full sunlight could you be seen, and then only by your shadow, and that would be shaky and faint

Not complete invisibility, mind you. Did I read last year about 'invisibility costume' being experimented upon by some scientist on another in a NG? Or was it Discovery Channel rather? Employing special cloth to reflect the background, and cameras to project it to the cloth? Did I?

And did Galadriel not always said that 'tricks of the Enemy' are not what she would call 'elven magic' and the latter is wise application of natural phenomena, and the former deceit?

Now take Legolas breakdancing on a spine of a troll, defying centrifugal force and what not...

[Gurthang]

Snow, I conceed; that's not one of the points I am talking about, though. Perhaps a little chain-walking I can even live with. It's the fact that Legolas comes up as an untouchable character in certain situations, but he is not like that all the time.

'Oh, look, a huge hairy mumak. Instead of running away, I think I'll run towards it. Just a little grab, a couple simple swings up, kill a few enemies, cut a foot-thick rope, release a few arrows into a running oliphaunt's skull and slide down it's trunk like I was merely slicing cheese.'

Take that into contrast with a Legolas who can't even fight his way through a crowd to save Aragorn in RotK and you've got a pretty up-and-down character.

True, it is a fantasy universe, and so things can happen that aren't realistic, but it's more than that that bothers me. It's like PJ wants to use Legolas to shoot elves up on an unassailable pedestal. The stunts are something that an elf, even in a fantasy world, should not be able to do.

[Kath]

As I recall, it seemed to me when I watched that sequence that it necessarily involved Legolas' arm passing through his upper body. Or something like that. "Superhuman" abilities I can live with. Anatomically impossible maneuvres I cannot.

How so? As I recall he was standing with his back slightly to the horse. He then grabbed the reins (or the neck, I don't remember which) with his left hand and bent his elbow as he swung up, thereby turning his body around and landing facing forward. And even if I have that completely wrong and he was in fact standing facing the horse and grabbed it with his right hand, it's still not impossible.

But I will grant that it does bring you out of the fantasy the film has created. The reason that the episode with the cave troll is largely ignored is likely because most people (wrongly or rightly) find Fellowship to be the truest to the books and so are more involved in the fantasy, and are pulled out less easily. Also, the focus is not on Legolas for as long as it is with the shield or Oliphaunt stunts. It's fast and over quickly, moving the action on to someone else straight away.

The thing is that I did actually notice it and it bugged me and always has. I didn't like Legolas from the beginning though which wasn't a great help. But it's just like the problem we were discussing in SbS, when he jumps off the troll you can see the switch between CGI and real person, and that was quite jarring. I also saw no real need for it. In the books it was Frodo who was the only one that did any real damage to it, though of course there was not a proper fight. But still I saw no reason to take that act of bravery away from Frodo and give it to a character we know to be strong and brave. It detracts a little from the point of the episode.

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by Kath

How so? As I recall he was standing with his back slightly to the horse. He then grabbed the reins (or the neck, I don't remember which) with his left hand and bent his elbow as he swung up, thereby turning his body around and landing facing forward. And even if I have that completely wrong and he was in fact standing facing the horse and grabbed it with his right hand, it's still not impossible.

.

It is as a while since I have see it but I have managed a similar manouevre in reverse while falling off horses in my distant youth... not ending up on my feet alas......

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by HerenIstarion

What is that wonderful in making little imprint when not wearing heavy boots and being nimble and agile and light-footed and not that heavy at all, eh? On a crisp snow crust?

I'd call it quite wonderful when the two Men present are unable to move across the snow without becoming becoming all but buried in it.

Slowly they moved off, and were soon toiling heavily. In places the snow was breast-high, and often Boromir seemed to be swimming or burrowing with his great arms rather than walking.

The difference between this description and the description of Legolas' passage across the snow cannot be explained in terms of agility and light-footedness alone. Either Legolas is a lot lighter than the other two or he is not subject to the same forces that they are. But this is probably best left to the thread which Roa_Aoife linked to above.

Originally Posted by Gurthang

Take that into contrast with a Legolas who can't even fight his way through a crowd to save Aragorn in RotK and you've got a pretty up-and-down character.

Ah, now you may have a point there on inconsistency, but it's not the point with which you started this thread. And, to the extent that there is inconsistency in the portrayal of Legolas' skills, it is not one which would occur to someone at this point in the first film of the three.

Originally Posted by Gurthang

It's like PJ wants to use Legolas to shoot elves up on an unassailable pedestal. The stunts are something that an elf, even in a fantasy world, should not be able to do.

Sorry, but I fail to see much difference, in substance at least if not in style, between these moments and Legolas' snow walking in the book. As for Jackson's reasons for including them, I think that he saw an opportunity to adapt/expand on the way in which Legolas is presented in the book to appeal to a certain type of viewer. While, as I said, I am not a great fan of the shield-surfing scene, I can understand why he did it. And I bet that there are a fair few out there who would cite it as one of their favourite moments of the film or, at the very least, a very moment.

Mind you, he's not that "superhuman". He got the direction of the Orcs route to Isengard completely wrong. Now there's an issue that does annoy me, and I really don't understand why they did not re-dub it on the EE.

Originally Posted by Kath

How so? As I recall he was standing with his back slightly to the horse. He then grabbed the reins (or the neck, I don't remember which) with his left hand and bent his elbow as he swung up, thereby turning his body around and landing facing forward.

I don't doubt that the maneuvre is possible in theory (although undoubtedly dangerous). It just seemed to me that the way in which it was presented on-screen looked impossible.

Originally Posted by Kath

... when he jumps off the troll you can see the switch between CGI and real person, and that was quite jarring.

Hehe. When I was but a mere strip of a Saucepan Man, the best special effects were those produced by Ray Harryhausen et al. Whenever the monster grabbed one of the actors, he or she suddenly turned to plasticene. So, as far as I am concerned, CGI is a vast improvement (although I remain a great admirer of Ray Harryhausen's work).

[mormegil]

Originally Posted by Gurthang

Take that into contrast with a Legolas who can't even fight his way through a crowd to save Aragorn in RotK and you've got a pretty up-and-down character.

I would posit the difference there is not an inconsistency but merely the fighting style of Legolas. Simply put Legolas is an open-aired fighter, meaning he is best in open spaces with lots of room to maneuver so a close compact battle is not ideal. That is what happened when he tried to "save" Aragorn. Contrast this with Gimli's fighting style. He would rather be up close and just enough room to swing his axe.

[Roa_Aoife]

I disagree with the pluasibility of the horse trick. Had he swung backwards onto the horse it would have been a common place stunt. but this is not what he did. Legolas swung forward, changed direction spun around, and landed behind Gimli. Laws of Physics aside, such a feat would have required monumental physical strength.

Laws of Physics taken into account, his momentum was frward, not upward, so by all rights he should have gone flying off to the side. *pauses to laugh at this image* "But wait," you say, "he could have used the horse's neck to change direction!" To that I say, he can't have had the proper grip on the horse's neck to keep from flying off to the side enitrely, or his hand would have been unable to slide over the surface of the neck. Unless he's secretly Mr. Fantastic, this wouldn't work.

[Gurthang]

Originally Posted by Roa_Aoife

I disagree with the pluasibility of the horse trick. Had he swung backwards onto the horse it would have been a common place stunt. but this is not what he did. Legolas swung forward, changed direction spun around, and landed behind Gimli. Laws of Physics aside, such a feat would have required monumental physical strength.

Not to mention that such a force could very well knock the horse over, or at least cause it to stumble or sidestep to keep from falling. Yet the peerless pony moved on as though made of stone...

[HerenIstarion]

SpM, I see cinematographic reasons well - in action movie there would be action, and Legolas fills the bill well. It is logical to have his agility as a starting point, and there is not much inconsistency there. But it is the (harmful, I believe) shift of perspective that Legolas stunts bring about.

Indeed, Legolas is agile and nimble, for elves are closer to nature than humans are. But elven agility (as all their 'superior' skills) is not warlike:

'Ah, alas!' cried Glóin. 'When will the day come of our revenge? But still there are the Three. What of the Three Rings of the Elves? Very mighty Rings, it is said. Do not the Elf-lords keep them? Yet they too were made by the Dark Lord long ago. Are they idle? I see Elf-lords here. Will they not say?'
The Elves returned no answer. `Did you not hear me, Glóin?' said Elrond. `The Three were not made by Sauron, nor did he ever touch them. But of them it is not permitted to speak. So much only in this hour of doubt I may now say. They are not idle. But they were not made as weapons of war or conquest: that is not their power.

Maybe agility in snow and rope walking may bring advantage in combat, but that is 'not its power'. Likewise, bodybuilder may prove a bad match for a bar brawl, being trained and strong of body, but the point of bodybuilding is beauty, not advantage in bar fights.


Oliphaunt stunt shifts another perspective. Pelennor fields is a World War, and all are involved:

These three were unscathed, for such was their fortune and the skill and might of their arms, and few indeed had dared to abide them or look on their faces in the hour of their wrath. But many others were hurt or maimed or dead upon the field. The axes hewed Forlong as he fought alone and unhorsed; and both Duilin of Morthond and his brother were trampled to death when they assailed the mûmakil, leading their bowmen close to shoot at the eyes of the monsters. Neither Hirluin the fair would return to Pinnath Gelin, nor Grimbold to Grimslade, nor Halbarad to the Northlands, dour-handed Ranger. No few had fallen, renowned or nameless, captain or soldier; for it was a great battle and the full count of it no tale has told. So long afterward a maker in Rohan said in his song of the Mounds of Mundburg:

We heard of the horns in the hills ringing,
the swords shining in the South-kingdom.
Steeds went striding to the Stoningland
as wind in the morning. War was kindled.
There Théoden fell, Thengling mighty,
to his golden halls and green pastures
in the Northern fields never returning,
high lord of the host. Harding and Guthláf
Dúnhere and Déorwine, doughty Grimbold,
Herefara and Herubrand, Horn and Fastred,
fought and fell there in a far country:
in the Mounds of Mundburg under mould they lie
with their league-fellows, lords of Gondor.
Neither Hirluin the Fair to the hills by the sea,
nor Forlong the old to the flowering vales
ever, to Arnach, to his own country
returned in triumph; nor the tall bowmen,
Derufin and Duilin, to their dark waters,
meres of Morthond under mountain-shadows.
Death in the morning and at day’s ending
lords took and lowly. Long now they sleep
under grass in Gondor by the Great River.
Grey now as tears, gleaming silver,
red then it rolled, roaring water:
foam dyed with blood flamed at sunset;
as beacons mountains burned at evening;
red fell the dew in Rammas Echor.

It is a victory of many, and many, great and small alike, fell. It is a sad victory, but it would have been grim defeat if all would not fight unyielding against fear brought against them, and but for all, deeds of single heroes would have been vain. Now (movie) Legolas, teamed up with Green Ghostly Stuff, reduces the whole Gondor army to mere crowd tinkering in the background while 'real stuff' goes on in front. Indeed, why bother? Summon couple of scores of Legolases out of Mirkwood and they'll do the job for you.

Troll stunt - spectacular, no doubt, but again, shift of a perspective. Book's 'we can not get out' is a sudden and piercing pain, almost despair for me, and parallel with dwarves long ago. Escape from Room of Mazarbul is a marvel, minor 'eucatastrophe' in its own right. In the movie, there is no such a sense at all, rather 'good, they will kick some *** and go on presently'. And an aside - the filming is even disrespectful - indeed, Gimli standing on Balin's tomb - do we treat tombs of our heroes in such a manner? Whilst in the book Gimli first goes for the ork who dares to set foot on the tomb!

In the light of instances above, horse stunt seems innocent and least unnatural of all (Seeing also as all throughout Caucasus the skill of horse-riding was once spread (and now is preserved by circus troops mainly) when a rider would jump on and off, turn around and lean to the ground to pick up minor objects all in a full gallop)

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by HerenIstarion

Indeed, Legolas is agile and nimble, for elves are closer to nature than humans are. But elven agility (as all their 'superior' skills) is not warlike.

That may well be the case. But it does not follow that their superior agility will not prove useful in combat. Indeed, an Elf would be foolish and neglectful not to use such skills offensively where appropriate, for example in defending himself or his companions.

Originally Posted by HerenIstarion

Now (movie) Legolas, teamed up with Green Ghostly Stuff, reduces the whole Gondor army to mere crowd tinkering in the background while 'real stuff' goes on in front. Indeed, why bother?

As far as the Dead are concerned, I don't necessarily disagree. But that's a different issue. I see little wrong, in a battle sequence, in concentrating on the exploits of the principal characters and portraying their decisive roles in the battle. Much as Tolkien did with Legolas' and Gimli's tally at Helm's Deep. It seems to me fair to assume that the other combatants did more than simply stand idly by sharpening their swords.

[HerenIstarion]

Agility as an advantage in combat - of course - I do continue logical chain myself in my previous. But I thought it inappropriate to stress on prowess only, shuffling other things behind the front-page combat.

I see little wrong, in a battle sequence, in concentrating on the exploits of the principal characters and portraying their decisive roles in the battle

Neither do I. But decisive to what extent? Overdone, I'd say, when an impression is that out of several elephants assailing the battlefield one is taken out by Legolas, and the rest by Ghost Host, and if but for that, the outcome would have been hopeless.

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by HI

Funny how PJ never thought of taking us for assistants?

Hehe. The poor man would have been driven quite mad.

But I thought it inappropriate to stress on prowess only, shuffling other things behind the front-page combat.

Well, I suppose he could have included a few scenes of Elven gymnastics from Legolas, but it might have made the film drag a bit.

I'd say, when an impression is that out of several elephants assailing the battlefield one is taken out by Legolas, and the rest by Ghost Host ...

Ah, but you are forgetting Eomer and Eowyn.

[Reg Pither]

Originally Posted by HerenIstarion

Summon couple of scores of Legolases out of Mirkwood and they'll do the job for you.

I would just venture the point that Legolas isn't just 'an elf', he is a Prince of Mirkwood, so in effect a 'hero' type of figure in the world of Middle Earth. As such, it seems perfectly reasonable that he would have greater 'powers' than even a common or garden elf.

Having said that, the shield surfing incident was just dumb.

[Morsul the Dark]

Originally Posted by Roa_Aoife

Perhaps not anatomically impossible, but certainly in violation of the laws of Physics. Saucy makes good points, but I think another reason these stunt stand out so much is their incredible similarity to extreme sports. Legolas looks less like an Elf doing typical Elf stuff, and more like a skateboarder or surfer. It certainly breaks some of the believability when we are confronted with something so modern and familiar when we are supposed to be drawn into a strange and ancient world.

maybe PJ madfe legolas Captain obvious to match this skateboarder image

[Essex]

I just don't understand why every male here is so jealous of the Hugely succesful, Multi millionaire and good looking movie star Orlando Bloom who has a string of beauties attached to his arm..................it really is beyond me.

I'd also like to congratulate everyone on not using the words 'Captain' and 'Obvious' together for 27 posts. Well done!

PS - yes the surfing did look 'out of place' - but whose to say that someone hasn't thought of something like this to get down some stairs quickly before? Why do we always think that just because we only invented surfing a while back that no one's thought of using a piece of wood or metal to make it down some stairs fast (and somewhat pecariously!) years before this?

[mormegil]

Essex, I think you misunderstand what we are saying here. This is not Orlando Bloom bashing, in fact I think he is a decent actor in his own right and I think he fit the general image of Legolas, to me anyway. I am not jealous in the least of him and I see why PJ would put in a pretty-boy in as the elf lead role. That's fine with me that he wanted to have an attractive 'hottie' for the girls to like. What does bother me is how he is shown at times. In particular the shield surfing. It just doesn't seem true to the story or environment. It's too similar to what I would expect Vin Diesel to be doing or even a Steven Segal. It simply took me out of the battle that was occuring and didn't seem to fit into what should have been happening at this time.

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by Essex

PS - yes the surfing did look 'out of place' - but whose to say that someone hasn't thought of something like this to get down some stairs quickly before? Why do we always think that just because we only invented surfing a while back that no one's thought of using a piece of wood or metal to make it down some stairs fast (and somewhat pecariously!) years before this?

Polynesian people have been surfing for three or four millenia and more recently surfing was observed by Captain Cook in Taihiti in 1777.

[Anguirel]

It's not Legolas' portrayal in the films that has distorted him somewhat irreparably for me. Rather, it's the reaction of filmgoers to the onscreen Legolas; and here I would class the contortions of Legolovers and purists as equally damaging, really.

Admittedly, film-Legolas for me was a good deal less than perfect. But as he was my favourite character when I first read the book at the age of six, that was always going to be rather difficult. I was annoyed by the blonde wig (Legolas is obviously dark) and the loss of the incredibly moving Sea-Longing scenes, but not to the point of delirium, foaming at the mouth etc.

No, what was dreadful was when it became clear that everyone had noticed Legolas. That they were either singing his praises or ripping him to pieces in berserk rage. Mud stuck on two sides; the fangirls were idolizing a simpering yellow-haired luvvah who quickly began to overlap with Orlie himself; the sceptics were yelling hackneyed and irritating names like "Captain Obvious!" and telling long, boring jokes about Legolas' shampoo supply.

Between them they ruined his gravitas. I began to realise I would have difficulty taking Legolas seriously again. That the Elf who fought perilously and wept into the sea was being forgotten. The mob had surrounded Legolas like a group of small boys fighting over a toy, and torn him to pieces...

And Mith, with respect, I'm sure Polynesians have been surfing away since 5000 BC, but I know and you know that the filmmakers don't care less about that aspect. They're aiming to suck up to skaters, and that does worry me a little. But it's a minor point, and really I believe, as I say, that the fans-aye, that we-are to blame for the defamation of poor old Leggy.

(Every time you say Leggy, another piece of Legolas' integrity dies...)

[Mithalwen]

Well I had the horror of my elder sister who had sneered at my Tolkien obsession throughout my adolescence suddenly getting interested because she liked Orlando Bloom ... I mean how ghastly is that? At her age it practically counts as a midlife crisis....grrrrrrrrrrrr Orlando Bloom is harmless enough. The role has brought him fame disproprotionate to his ability but such is the way of the world. He is not my vision of Legolas (who was a favourite of mine too when I first read the book) so I have filtered him out.... you will get him back. The book Legolas is still whatever he was. In my opinion virtually all the characters were demeaned in the film in relation to their book - if you think Legolas is hit hard, think about poor Elrond whose nobility and sacrifice is transformed in to a petulant MD and slightly creepy Dad... or Faramir..... PJ's vision doesn't have to destroy yours... I know have a composite in my head comprising of my own imaginings, Tolkien's picture overlapped with favourite aspects of the film and radio..... Personally I resent these scenes not because of Legolas's tricks - I thought the Troll chain walk was an acceptable sub for Legolas's running a rope across the Celebrant- but because they were overlong and left less time for character development.

For the surfing I merely attempted to provide factual information .... however I found the Gimli related incidents more intrusive and disrupting to the "suspension of disbelief" ("nobody tosses a Dwarf " etc....)

[Essex]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

Polynesian people have been surfing for three or four millenia and more recently surfing was observed by Captain Cook in Taihiti in 1777.

Marvellous! It gives even MORE credence to Legolas surfing down the stairs.

The only bits where I'm 'taken out of the movie' are when PJ sticks himself, his mates or his children in a scene - I can't help remembering who they are and it brings me out of the movie. Oh, and them two rohan children on their horse and their mother 'I will find you' .............shudder............

[Mithalwen]

And of course as long as there has been snow and slopes I bet people have slid down em on their cultural equivalent of a tin tray.......

Oh the bugeyed moppets - once ok maybe they were plausible hobbits, but when they reappeared in Rohan and Gondor, I started getting the feeling we had removed to Royston Vasey and everyone was horribly inbred....

[Anguirel]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

if you think Legolas is hit hard, think about poor Elrond whose nobility and sacrifice is transformed in to a petulant MD and slightly creepy Dad... or Faramir.....

Actually, I didn't mind either of those cases nearly so much.

With Elrond I suppose it's because I was never as interested in him as I was in Legolas (until I read the Silmarillion and decided I was Maglor reincarnated, anyway...), as lots of my Elrondite friends felt his altering keenly.

But with Faramir, aside from the slightly ridiculous plot-holes caused by the Nazgul sequence, I had few problems, because I felt Wenham was a good actor who was deling with a character inside the appropriate culture. Indeed, in TTT EE and ROTK I could find no faults with him, and enjoyed every second he was on screen. Oh for more Houses of Healing scenes with the goddess Miranda...

Legolas felt...rather jarringly modern in more ways than skating, and reading interviews with Orlie didn't help. It's a problem he has in Kingdom of Heaven too. He couldn't be less "mediaeval"...

[Roa_Aoife]

Yes, Faramir was rather demeaned in the movies. But there are whole other threads on that, I'm sure.
Anguirel makes a good point. I admit that it become much easier to find fault with him after the raving fan girls started. It was sort of a knee jerk reaction for fan girl/boy haters, such as myself. (Really, people, the Capt. Obvious joke is overdone. For heavens sake, lets remember the audience this was directed at. Not everyone might have gotten the point. And it happened once, that I'm aware. Hardly condeming.)

My only true" beef" if you will is with the Oliphaunt, the stair surfing, and the horse trick, the last of which couldn't make up for itself with even looking cool. At least the first too had the initial, "Woah, I wasn't expecting kick*** moves like that," before the, "Wait a minute, what is he, Tonk Hawk?"

Also, if anyone here saw Disney's Tarzan, that part where our loin-clothed hero slides through the tree branches looks remarkably like the Oliphaunt trunk-sliding Legolas. That sequence, according to the artists, was speciffically designed to look like surfing/skating. Coincidence? Most likely, but you never know.

[Essex]

Originally Posted by Anguirel

But with Faramir, aside from the slightly ridiculous plot-holes caused by the Nazgul sequence

Sorry can't help myself get dragged into a faramir argument. What plot hole? I'm all for pointing out plot holes when they happen in the movies (the power of the Ring etc) - bur movie Faramir SHOT DOWN the fell beast and the nazgul (that's why there were only 8 at the gates of mordor later on) - so he didn't go back to report to his master. and shortly afterwards Pippin loks into the Palantir and BANG there's the halfling with the Ring for Sauron to concentrate on.........

Also, as PJ said in the EE comentary, they were transposing the scene from Minas Morgul to Osgiliath (you know, where Frodo is tempted to put on the Ring by the Witch King as he sets off to War) - so not TOTALLY sacrligeous to the story............

anyway, don't mind me, let's get back to the Leggy bashing....................

[Gurthang]

I actually agree about Faramir. I hate the way he is so different from the book, but looking at the movie alone, I think he is rather consistent, and would have really enjoyed his character, had I not known book Faramir already.

Truthfully, the shield surfing did not bother me. I thought it was actually quite cool. The reason that the horse-jump is just so physically and anatomically impossible that it makes me groan. The mumakil scene didn't bother me so much initially, except when he slides down the trunk and has the hideously smug look on his face. I can't even explain why, but it just infuriates me to no end. The only relief is Gimli's hilarious reply.

[Anguirel]

Originally Posted by Essex

Sorry can't help myself get dragged into a faramir argument. What plot hole? I'm all for pointing out plot holes when they happen in the movies (the power of the Ring etc) - bur movie Faramir SHOT DOWN the fell beast and the nazgul.

He shot down the beastie; we know from Gandalf's comment to Legolas in FOTR that that does not kill the rider...but I agree, we're off-topic.