What if the orcs had not captured Merry & Pippin?

[littlemanpoet]

This question jumped out at me as I posted in "Tone".

What if the orcs had not captured Merry and Pippin, but Boromir had still sacrificed himself for them? How do you suppose Tolkien would have written it if this one plot development had not occurred?

Would Frodo have given Merry & Pippin the slip? Would Aragorn have stuck with Frodo all the way to Mordor? Would Legolas? Would Gimli? What extenuating circumstances might have sent Aragorn, Legolas, Gimli, Merry, and Pippin somewhere else besides accompanying Frodo?

Try to put yourself inside Tolkien's creative process. What would he have done, do you think?

Yes, I realize such an exercise is highly speculative, but I'm still curious.

Hope! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]
Paul

[Kuruharan]

Hail and fair weather, lmp!

I think that Merry and Pippin had to be captured by the orcs. It was a very important event in the story.

If Merry and Pippin had not been captured by the orcs then Aragorn would not have gone west into Rohan. He would not have received the palantir. Thus, he would not have spooked Sauron or found out about the fleet. He would not have been in such a good position to intercept the fleet before it got to Minas Tirith, and things in that city might have been quite worse than they ultimately turned out.

I think that Frodo would at least have tried to give everybody the slip. If he had not succeeded then I think that Aragorn would have made every effort to get to Mordor with him. If Frodo had succeeded in getting away then Aragorn might have followed him. On the other hand he might have gone to Minas Tirith, to do...something. I don't think that he would have proclaimed himself on arrival. However, Denethor might have known who he was anyway, and might have tried to do something to Aragorn. In any case, it's hard to see what use Aragorn could have been in the city. He was much more useful outside of it, coming to its rescue. So, he needed a reason to be side-tracked halfway across the continent, and Merry and Pippin being snagged by the orcs provided that reason.

[ February 15, 2003: Message edited by: Kuruharan ]

[Phrim]

Well, Tolkien would have been writing himself into a neat little mess, then. Clearly at least Aragorn (and probably the rest too--they had nowhere else to go) would have journeyed with Frodo to the gates of Mordor. Originally, Aragorn may have intended to go to Minas Tirith, but with Gandalf lost, Aragorn was in charge of the company. Since the purpose of the expedition was to destroy the Ring, its leader could certainly not have abandoned that except in dire circumstances.

That being said, the then seven companions certainly could not have accomplished the task together. I think Tolkien intended the book to be more of a personal battle for Frodo; the point was that he grew enough as a character to be able to accomplish the quest himself (for the most part), without the supervision or help of his "greaters" like Gandalf or Aragorn.

Furthermore, I don't see how it would make much sense that an Aragorn-led company could even gain access to Mordor. Ranger though he might be, all paths were watched, and Aragorn (or any other sane man) would have never attempted Cirith Ungol. And further, with a full company, Gollum would have never been turned to for help; this was a move made by Frodo in desperation for lack of a leader and guide.

My conclusion is that the quest neither could have nor should have been completed with Aragorn still at the helm (which of course he would certainly try to be). The only way out of the writer's dilemma would be to write another incident would that similarly cause the breaking of the company; and why do that when the opportunity is already there at Amon Hen?

[littlemanpoet]

Interesting, interesting! Thanks for the considered responses.

Hail, Kuruharan, and may your beard grow ever longer!

Greetings and well met, Phrim. May your deadness be most enjoyable.

I must confess that being a writer (of debatable ability), I look at this from a writer's point of view. That is to say, constantly thinking in terms of plot 'what-ifs'. It is, admittedly, highly speculative, but part of the writer's craft, and helpful to me in terms of working out creative possibilities in a realistic way. Who knows? Maybe Tolkien thought about this stuff.

I agree that Aragorn would not have been given the slip, and that he instead of Gollum would have led Frodo and Sam - and the whole company - as far as Henneth Anun. There Aragorn would meet Faramir. THAT, my freinds, at that TIME and in that PLACE, would have been an interesting meeting. Is it possible that Aragorn could have been moved in heart to (1) go with Faramir to Minas Tirith (2) move toward the Kingship in Minas Tirith as prophesied by Arwen (3) remember the Paths of the Dead as prophesied by Galadriel? What would happen then? Would Aragorn go with Faramir to Gondor? If he did, would Legolas and Gimli have gone with him to Gondor? I can't imagine that the hobbits could have been separated by anything short of capture or death. So what would Legolas and Gimli have done if Aragorn went to Gondor to fulfill his fate - assuming that's what he would have done?

[Phrim]

I personally don't think Aragorn would have parted with the company for any but the most dire of reasons. As leader of the company (after Gandalf fell), it was his *responsibility* to see that the given task of the destruction of the Ring was accomplished. To go off on personal quests to become the King of Gondor or whatnot would have simply been irresponsible, whatever his meeting with Faramir might bring about.

However, for the sake of conjecture, if Aragorn had abandoned the quest at Henneth Annun, I don't believe any of the fellowship would have accompanied him (aside for Boromir, of course, had he been living). Sam is obvious. Merry and Pippin would not have left Frodo for the aforementioned reasons. As for Gimli and Legolas--there's really no reason for them to go to Gondor. Gondor was not their home, and they had no destiny to fulfill in Gondor; if they accompanied Aragorn, it would be for friendship's sake. And certainly I think the weight of their assigned task would have taken precedence over acts of friendship.

[Kuruharan]

Furthermore, I don't see how it would make much sense that an Aragorn-led company could even gain access to Mordor. Ranger though he might be, all paths were watched, and Aragorn (or any other sane man) would have never attempted Cirith Ungol.

Ah, yes, but consider for a moment. What is it that makes something a pass? Mainly it's just a low place between mountain peaks with reasonable access from below. There are certain gaps that become customary to use and so become "the pass." However, these are not necessarily the only ways over. Theoretically, you can go where your feet can carry you.

How does this relate to Aragorn, you ask. There might have been ways over the mountains that had no roads, paths, etc., but they might be traversable for the desperate who had no other way in. These "non-roads" would probably not be watched as carefully. Aragorn, unlike Frodo all on his lonesome, would probably be more venturesome in this type of work and have a better idea of what to look for in the mountains.

Of course, none of this may really have been possible, but it's a thought.

agree that Aragorn would not have been given the slip, and that he instead of Gollum would have led Frodo and Sam - and the whole company - as far as Henneth Anun. There Aragorn would meet Faramir.

Alas, unless Aragorn already knew where Henneth Annun was, I fear that the Fellowship might have passed through Ithilien before Faramir was there.

Consider the timeline. With Aragorn at the helm, I seriously doubt that the Fellowship would have lost three days in the Emyn Muil. They might have gotten through it on the very first day (the 27th). Faramir did not leave until the 1st. In the story Frodo was spending his first night in the Dead Marshes. If an Aragorn led Fellowship had left the Emyn Muil on the 27th, they would have been to the Morannon or beyond by then. By the time that Faramir's company arrived in the area of the ambush a few days later the Fellowship could very well have passed on to the south, or been crossing the mountains in some likely spot. However, I personally think that the Ered Lithui would have been easier to traverse than the Ephel Duath, so they may have headed east rather than south.

However, Aragorn might have known about Henneth Annun, but if he had taken them there they might have left before Faramir arrived, or if Faramir found them there they probably would have been in the greatest danger for the first moments until it could be established who they were (and this is making the very great assumption that they would be given the opportunity to make themselves known).

[burrahobbit]

Depends on what you mean by "hadn't captured Merry and Pippin." If the Orcs had attacked and then been fought off, mostly it would have been the same, but without Ents. If the Orcs hadn't attacked, Boromir still would have tried to steal the ring and Frodo still would have run away. In the first case Boromir may or may not have died, in the second he certainly wouldn't have. With Boromir alive the company would have been more inclined to head toward Gondor to offer and aid that they could. Would they have done anything in Rohan? Perhaps they wouldn't have been quite as hasty and thus wouldn't have been found by Eomer. They certainly wouldn't have gone into Fangorn, and so they wouldn't have found Gandalf or any Ents there. Maybe they would have been found in Rohan by Galdalf, and perhaps Gandalf could have spurred on the ents. I generally don't think it would have been much different if Merry and Pippin hadn't been captured.

[littlemanpoet]

Verrrrry interesting notions, friends! Glad I asked.

Here's my thought: the orcs did attack, and yes, as burrahobbit says, Boromir still did try to take the Ring from Frodo. Those things I'm not taking away for the sake of the speculation. And since the orcs attacked and Boromir fought them, I'm not taking away his death. I agree that everybody who was left would have gone with Frodo and Sam - but not by means of the Dead Marshes. I think that Aragorn would have led them downriver, which while still dangerous was no more so than any other way, and much quicker - especially below the Rauros Falls.

Still, where would Aragorn have taken them in hopes of entering Mordor? Certainly not to the Gates of Morannon; he knew better. Surely he didn't know of Cirith Ungol, either. Nor were the mountains passable, as far as I can recall from Tolkien's descriptions and the maps (which don't tell a whole lot about passability, granted). My guess is that Aragorn would consider the woods of Ithilien to be relatively safer than the River, and they would have left the boats as soon as they had gotten as far as Ithilien.

Now, even though Faramir would not have been as far north as Henneth Annun (good point), he still would have been somewhere in Ithilien. Aragorn may have known of Henneth Annun, maybe not. I don't think he would have stopped there in any case. Aragorn may or may not have been aware of Faramir's presence in Ithilien, but if he had to pass through Ithilien, my guess is that he would have picked up on the presence of Gondorian scouts by means of his Ranger skills. Looking for them, I think he would have eventually found them - probably not at Henneth Annun, though.

Phrim, you make a good point that Aragorn was committed to the cause of the Ring; but he was just as strongly compelled by his "doom" and the prophecies about him. He would have had a very difficult wrestle with himself, the closer he got to Minas Tirith. Perhaps you guess the best that he would have remained true to the quest, but not, I believe, without misgiving.

Having no clear idea of how to get into Mordor, I don't know WHAT Tolkien would have come up with, but I offer one (highly speculative) possibility: Gollum is still following the Ring in this scenario, and at SOME point I can imagine the depleted Fellowship capturing him. He could still come under the domination of Frodo - who in terms of the Ring would not be faring any better than Tolkien wrote. Due to the presence of the Elf and Dwarf and Man, Gollum probably would never have come out of his shell, he still might have communicated Cirith Ungol with hopes of Shelob taking them ALL out and leaving him the Ring.

Meanwhile, Gandalf, still knowing all the things that had to be done, all the forces that needed to be marshalled, could still have mobilized Treebeard and the Ents, and Theoden and the Rohirrim, without the help of the hobbits and Aragorn and company. It's just that it made better story to have them where they were, I'd say.

Still, Gandalf still would have gotten the Palantir with Saruman still defeated by the Ents and the Huorns and the Rohirrim combined - Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli didn't make THAT much of a difference in the whole scope of that part of the War. But Gandalf would have ridden hard to Minas Tirith with a Palantir in his possession.

That's how it looks to me in this highly speculative set-up. Thoughts?

[Aratlithiel]

These are all very interesting theories and well-thought-out scenarios. However, I think a better question might be, "what element could you remove from this story without it affecting the outcome?" I believe the answer to that question would be, not a single one.

Think about it...Merry and Pippin HAD to be captured in order for Sauron to believe that Saruman had THE Halfling (and thus, the Ring) and to further believe Saruman had betrayed him. Merry and Pippin HAD to escape and stumble into Fangorn in order for the Ents to become involved in the war.

If Aragorn had accompanied Frodo to Mordor, who would have looked into the palantir and threatened Sauron and gotten him to empty out the lands so that Frodo could get to Orodruin? And who would have travelled the Paths of the Dead gathering much-needed forces for the final battles? These are things Aragorn, and ONLY Aragorn could have done.

Also, if anyone other than Sam had been travelling with Frodo toward the end when he was so heavily influenced by the Ring, I feel almost certain that SOMEONE in the company would have finally attempted to take it from him. Whether it was Ring-induced treachery or simple pity/love for Frodo and the wish to relieve him of the burden, one of them would have taken it away. Sam was certainly the only one in the entire Company capable of getting Frodo to the Cracks of Doom simply because that was what Frodo wanted. He's the only one who never doubted Frodo or his Quest and therefore, the only one who could have helped him the way he did - anyone else present (including Aragorn) would have simply been in Sam's way and would have interfered in the end result.

I would have to go through the book plot-point by plot-point, but I'm fairly confident in saying that even the most minor events HAD to happen in exactly the way they did in order for the Quest to succeed. Any deviation from these events would have resulted in the failure of the Quest, the war and the race of Men. Every single event, no matter how small, has a very distinct domino-effect and if you remove one element, the whole string of events falls and the end result is failure of the Quest.

[Rumil]

I wonder if the company might all have been killed or captured if the Uruk-Hai had not found Merry and Pippin and Boromir first.

The Uruk Hai were instructed to capture 'halflings' so when they had taken Merry and Pippin they considered their mission accomplished and started back to Orthanc. If Merry and Pippin had stayed with Aragorn, Gimli and Legolas, would the 'three hunters' have managed to fight off a couple of hundred orcs and Uruk-Hai?

At Helm's Deep the three must have killed at least 100 orcs between them, but that was with the support of the Rohirrim. As Boromir found out, the bravest man may be killed by one arrow!

[Kuruharan]

For some reason I've really gotten "into" the question of possible timing of a meeting between Faramir and Aragorn.

Going back and doing a more thorough check of the Atlas of Middle Earth I have come to the conclusion that I may have been a bit hasty in saying that Faramir could not have been to Henneth Annun before the Fellowship.

It took Frodo, Sam, and Gollum two days to get to the area of Henneth Annun from the Morannon. They went about 24 miles both days. I think that even had Aragorn been leading them this would be fairly good speed. Assuming an arrival date at the Morannon of March 1 (which I still think is a reasonable assessment), this would bring the Fellowship to the area of Henneth Annun on March 3.

Now, back to Faramir for a minute. He left Minas Tirith with his company on March 1.

A great deal of this whole thing depends on where one supposes that the Gondorians crossed the river. There are a few possibilities here.

1) Osgiliath. I personally find this crossing very unlikely for a few reasons. The orcs were positioned directly on the opposite bank (not good). There would then have to be a cross country hike of well over 50 miles through "hostile country." (This is the way that I originally thought that they came. [img]smilies/redface.gif[/img])

2) Some place in between Osgiliath and Cair Andros. The enemy might not be positioned directly across the river bank, but this way does not recommend itself because of the length of the march through Ithilien.

3) Crossing at Cair Andros or environs. This place would undoubtedly be watched carefully by the enemy, but I think that it is perhaps the most likely. The company would have had the benefit of the Great West Road for part of the way, which would have sped travel. Then once in Ithilien, the march to Henneth Annun would have been relatively brief. Perhaps a crossing to the north of Cair Andros would be safer, but still have the advantages of a brief march through Ithilien.

The march from Minas Tirith to the area of Cair Andros on the main road would be something about (very loose estimate) 30 miles. The other 25 miles probably had a path from the main road to Cair Andros (it was an important military post) so it probably would not be too difficult to travel. I think that a day and a half (assuming rest) would be reasonable.

Faramir would undoubtedly wish to make the crossing as soon as he arrived at the river, and I don't think that this crossing would have taken very long if they had preparations ready made at the site. Then the rest of the march would be around 15 miles, which would not take a hardy troop of soldiers too long.

They could have been there in a little over two days time (March 3). In other words, right when an Aragorn led Fellowship would have been passing through the area.

So, even though this contributes nothing to the general topic of the thread, I wanted to give lmp kudos for his belief that Faramir and Aragorn would have been in the same area at the right time.
[img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[ February 16, 2003: Message edited by: Kuruharan ]

[ February 16, 2003: Message edited by: Kuruharan ]

[littlemanpoet]

Thanks much, Kuruharan, both for the kudos and the thorough research.

Aratlithiel: Hoo! You're even more of a purist than I am, and that's saying something. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Merry and Pippin HAD to escape and stumble into Fangorn in order for the Ents to become involved in the war.

Sorry, I cannot agree with you. As Tolkien's text shows, Treebeard knew Gandalf was alive and well and in the environs of Fangorn, and Gandalf didn't need Merry & Pippin to motivate Treebeard.

Tangent: So why did Tolkien include that plot point if it wasn't necessary? Well, it was necessary, but not for the above stated purpose. Hobbits and Ents needed to be introduced to each other for the purposes of individual and racial characterization, and to connect divergent aspects of the whole Middle Earth myth.

If Aragorn had accompanied Frodo to Mordor, who would have looked into the palantir and threatened Sauron and gotten him to empty out the lands so that Frodo could get to Orodruin?

Gandalf - perhaps with not quite the same effect, I admit.

And who would have travelled the Paths of the Dead gathering much-needed forces for the final battles?

I still give Aragorn the chance of doing this, and here's how. Aragorn would have realized that he of all the remaining members of the Fellowship, stood out like a sore thumb, and in Mordor, would have made it more likely that the quest would FAIL, precisely because he would be harder to miss. Gimli might pass for an orc, even if he didn't want to, and Legolas would be able to avoid detection. So Aragorn, it seems to me, would have concluded (after much painful questioning of his own heart) that it would be better for the fate of all free peoples for himself to repair to Minas Tirith and leave the quest to its secrecy. At least, that's my guess.

SOMEONE in the company would have finally attempted to take it from him.

You credit Frodo's friends too little, I think.

Any deviation from these events would have resulted in the failure of the Quest,

Actually, there is evidence that this is not so, in Tolkien's letters, I believe. He wrote in one of them (it has been years since I read it and I don't have the book myself), he mulls over "what if", when Smeagol was tenderly reaching toward Frodo and Sam woke up and ruined the moment, thereby hardening Smeagol's heart, WHAT IF - Sam had NOT woken up and Smeagol had actually repented (I do believe that's the word Tolkien used)? There would not have been a fight at the Crack of Doom between Frodo and Gollum; no, Tolkien believed that Gollum would have willingly thrown himself and the Ring into the Crack of Doom as a last great act of redemption of his own soul and salvation to all the Free Peoples. So there WAS an alternate ending on THAT particular point, and from my own point of view as a writer, I can tell you that stories are very supple things, by which many plot points can be altered and rearranged without destroying the overall effect.

[Dondagnirion]

Well, here goes the explanation......

If they had not been captured then logically it would have meant that Boromir would have succeeded in protecting them until help came and therefore he would have gone to Minas Tirith with Legolas and Merry and Pippin. I know this because at one point (I forget exactly when) Aragorn says that if they had not been forced to pursue the captured hobbits then he would have gone with Frodo to Mordor with Sam because he "would not have had it any other way." and Gimli, because those were the companions he would have chosen for that journey, e.t.c. This would also mean that Rohan would have fallen to Saruman because Aragorn would not have been at the Battle Of Helms Deep to lead the defense (I am not dissing Boromir in this saying he could not have done Aragorns job but he just did not have Narsil and that was a big part of it, plain and simple). Then when Rohan fell Minas Tirith would also have fallen, and hence the whole thing would have been in vain. It is my personal belief that Tolkien saw through this line of reasoning and that is why he wrote the books out like that.

Dondagnirion
"There is no spoon."

[Aratlithiel]

littlemanpoet : curtsy & batting of eyelashes.

Hoo! You're even more of a purist than I am, and that's saying something

LOL - Believe me - you don't know the half of it!! [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Treebeard knew Gandalf was alive and well and in the environs of Fangorn, and Gandalf didn't need Merry & Pippin to motivate Treebeard.

I may have to give you this one but I think that as pressed for time as Gandalf was, he simply would not have had the time required to explain the situation and sit through an Entmoot.

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If Aragorn had accompanied Frodo to Mordor, who would have looked into the palantir and threatened Sauron and gotten him to empty out the lands so that Frodo could get to Orodruin?
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Gandalf - perhaps with not quite the same effect, I admit.

quote:

Ah - but then the Enemy would have known Gandalf were alive and a force in the battles and would therefore have been forewarned, ruining any element of surprise at the gates of Minas Tirith. Again, although Gandalf using the palantir is a possibility, it's also a domino and would have made the outcome different.

quote:
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And who would have travelled the Paths of the Dead gathering much-needed forces for the final battles?
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I still give Aragorn the chance of doing this, and here's how...

Hmmm...good theory, but I can't agree. Aragorn would take his committment to Frodo to heart and I seriously doubt he would get to the middle of the Emyn Muil and then turn around and abandon him. Also, you have to remember that Gollum is the only one who could have led Frodo through the Dead Marshes and he would hardly have done so if Aragorn were present - I sincerely doubt he would have even been a factor in the journey except as an annoying shadow until the very end.

quote:
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SOMEONE in the company would have finally attempted to take it from him.

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You credit Frodo's friends too little, I think.

Nah, I really and truly don't think so. Look, Merry and Pippin were already talking about trying to stop Frodo against his will way back at Rauros - do you really think they would have watched him wither and succumb to near-madness for the rest of the journey? I don't think they trusted his judgement enough - Sam's the only one who had total faith in rodo and the only reason Sam got Frodo to the Cracks of Doom was because it was what Frodo wanted.

Tolkien believed that Gollum would have willingly thrown himself and the Ring into the Crack of Doom

Ack! I've got to get those Letters! Someone mentioned this before and I find it so difficult to believe - I really need to read this so I can convince myself you're not all lying to me. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] Just kidding - I know you wouldn't do that to me! Still, though, I find this very difficult to accept and I think it's VERY out of character...I can only imagine that there would have had to have been some added text (ie 'Gollum thoughts') to explain the sudden shift and resulting redemption - otherwise I think it may well have ruined the story for me. Ah! The horror!!!!

Someday when I have time, I will do that analysis I was threatening and share it with you when it's complete. If anyone could find holes in it, I know you could! [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img]

[littlemanpoet]

Dondagnirion: I will not quote myself, my friend, yet I already answered your point. Gandalf was in Rohan and Fangorn and did not require Merry, Pippin, or Aragorn to defeat Saruman. Surely, they were helpful, but not essential to the plot turns leading to Rohan's victory over Saruman.

Aratlithiel: [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

the Enemy would have known Gandalf were alive and a force in the battles and would therefore have been forewarned, ruining any element of surprise at the gates of Minas Tirith.

But the Lord of the Nazgul was going to be pulled away to deal with the coming of Rohan, so the element of surprise did little to benefit Minas Tirith; and Gandalf ended up having to save Faramir rather than Theoden.

I see Gollum as an annoying shadow in this scenario, too, with Aragorn leading as far as Ithilien. What of Aragorn realizing that he'd be more of a magnet in Mordor than an aid?

[Aratlithiel]

Well, I can see the eyelash batting didn't distract you so...

What of Aragorn realizing that he'd be more of a magnet in Mordor than an aid?

Well, if that were the case then I could definitely see him leaving Frodo to his fate with many regrets, but you don't explain how he would become this magnet. Sauron would not be able to 'feel' Aragorn's presence as he does the Ring and possibly Gandalf. Sauron isn't even sure of Aragorn's existence until after the palantir incident. Explain to me how Aragorn becomes the magnet and I'll give you this one too.

[littlemanpoet]

Oh, I noticed the batted lashes [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] but beauty of mind always has appealed to me as much as (I won't say more than) - um - other types. [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img]

Anyway, about Aragorn. Let's say he actually led the Fellowship into Mordor. I'm imagining which ways he could possibly have led the Fellowship into Mordor. The mountains between Ithilien and Mordor were frankly impassable, even for Aragorn. I think that is eminently clear from Tolkien. That leave only three possibilities: The Gates of Morannon, the Vale of Morgul, and east all the way around the mountains, which would take too long so that's out, too. The Gates of Morannon were a quick way to give in. That leaves the Morgul Vale. Aragorn would have had the sense to see that it must be avoided, and he knew that Gollum had been in Mordor. I'm thinking that by the time they got this far, the Fellowship would have captured Gollum. My guess is that he would have forced the information out of Gollum, or that he would have asked for Frodo to get it out of him by the power of the Ring, and they would have gone by the only way that was relatively unguarded, Cirith Ungol. Enter Shelob. Would she have attacked such a large party? Probably not, except for perhaps from behind, in which case Merry or Pippin would have been "picked off" (just a guess). So they get through. The all have their Elven cloaks, so they can probably hide from any orc party, and Aragorn's Ranger abilities would help him to get the others into hiding more quickly than Frodo and Sam did on their own. All of which is to say that I find myself corrected, Aragorn probably could have gotten them all to Mount Doom more quickly than Frodo and Sam got there on their own. !!! [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img] Are there any catches to this line of imagining? Aragorn can't always be awake. That's the only thing I can think of. Wow! Okay, so maybe he WOULD have seen the whole thing through and set aside his kingship.

Next Question - probably for Kuruharan - what would the time frame of this look like, compared to what else is happening elsewhere?

[Dondagnirion]

Quoting myself..."This would also mean that Rohan would have fallen to Saruman because Aragorn would not have been at the Battle Of Helms Deep to lead the defense (I am not dissing Boromir in this saying he could not have done Aragorns job but he just did not have Narsil and that was a big part of it, plain and simple)."

Let me explain this a little bit more thoroughly. Yes, it is true that Gandalf would still have been there. This does mean that he would have been able to get Treebeard to call the Entmoot. Even with that though (him contacting the ents when they were done attacking Saruman) by the time Gandalf got back with Erkenbrand and his men, and the Huorns had gotten there, everyone at Helms Deep would have been dead. Although they would have still been able to destroy the rest of Saruman's army that does not make a difference in my arguement. This means that they would not have come to Minas Tirith in time or with enough men to win the battle. Yes Gandalf would still have been there to help in the defense but the Witchking would have gone undestroyed by Merry and Eowyn. Gandalf, some may say, would probably have been able to destroy the Witchking. I completely agree there. However, with only what was left at the diminished host of Rohan and no Theoden to "slay the black serpent", the battle would not have been able to been won or not won with enough forces to leave Minas Tirith sufficiently defended and still go to The Battle in front of the black gate to distract the eye from Frodo (and yes, it would have been easier for Frodo with Strider, Gimli, and Sam, instead of just Sam, but Sauron would have picked up on them without the nessecary distraction).

I am sorry for the long explanation and the massive run-on sentences but I felt I needed to explain myself.

P.S. Sorry for the last run-on also.

Dondagnirion
"There is no spoon."

[Phrim]

I'm not sure you can dismiss Shelob as easily as that. Tolkien writes:

And as for Sauron: he knew where she lurked. It pleased him that she should dwell there hungry but unabated in malice, a more sure watch upon that ancient path into his land than any other that his skill could have devised.

If the Dark Lord himself had thought so highly of Shelob as a safeguard for this passage, certainly Shelob would have attacked, no matter the size of the party. And having extra people around really wouldn't help, since, "those hideous folds could not be pierced by any strength of men, not though Elf or Dwarf should forge the steel or the hand of Beren or of Túrin wield it."

[The Saucepan Man]

littlemanpoet, your fast evolving alternative story-line involves all of the Fellowship bar Boromir (dead) and Gandalf (fell in Moria but returning) accompanying Frodo and Sam to Mordor. however, I am not so sure that this would have made the passage to, and through, Mordor any easier. Phrim makes good points concerning Shelob, and there would also have been a lot more Orcs around in Cirith Ungol had they not quarrelled after Frodo's capture.

Furthermore, this scenario presents for me two major problems in particular.

First, it would leave Gandalf the White with an awful lot of work to do in a relatively short timescale. He would basically have needed to take on the tasks fulfilled by Aragorn, Legolas, Gimli, Merry and Pippin (as well as himself) in the book. That is: rouse Theoden and Rohan, organise and participate in the successful defence/relief of Helms Deep and prompt the Ents' attack on Isengard. Quite a bit to do in the time available, even with Shadowfax.

This also leaves two tasks undone that only Aragorn could do. As has been pointed out earlier, only Aragorn could have ridden down the Paths of the Dead and enlisted the Dead Army's aid in defeating the Corsairs of Umbar. Also, I agree with Aratlithial that only Aragorn could have successfully challenged Suaron using the Palantir. The point was he was revealing himself as Isildur's heir and it was this that spooked Sauron and provoked him to show his hand earlier than he otherwise might.

The sum total of these problems is, as Dondagnirion points out, a very vulnerable Minas Tirith. No Aragorn or Merry at Pelennor Fields. More likely than not a severely depeleted force from Rohan. And the Corsairs of Umbar undefeated. Oh, and no Pippin, so Denethor quite possibly succeeds in torching his son along with himself. So, severe risk here of Minas Tirith being captured. No Minas Tirith, no tactical march on the Morannon. Aragorn has not revealed himself to Sauron and there are no forces of good hammering on the Black Gate, so Sauron maintains a stronger force within Mordor, making it that much more difficult again for the Ringbearer and (expanded) company.

Secondly, as I have posted on the Ring and Corruption thread, I believe that each member of the Fellowship was vulnerable to the Ring's power given long enough exposure, particularly as its power increases as it nears its Master and its place of creation. Just look at the effect it has on Sam at Cirith Ungol without him even wearing it. And Sam was a hobbit and thus peculiarly resistant. In Mordor, it would most likely have tempted at least one of the Fellowship, possibly more, into trying to get it off Frodo, not necessarily by violent means, but quite likely with catastrophic consequences nevertheless.

In short, the Ring seems to me to have a much greater chance of finding its way back to its Master in this scenario.

And finally, I do not think that the Books would have worked as well had the bulk of the Fellowship stayed together as they do in this scenario. The fact that they split essentially into three (and later four) groups allows the story to move from one group to another with each new Chapter/Book, allowing greater variety in the storyline, a wider range of incidental characters and more opportunity for suspense (for example, Frodo's "death" at the end of Book IV and Pippin's "death" at the end of Book V).

So, I am doubtful that it would work as well as a work of literature either.

[ February 18, 2003: Message edited by: The Saucepan Man ]

[ February 18, 2003: Message edited by: The Saucepan Man ]

[aragornreborn]

What if the orcs had not captured Merry and Pippin, but Boromir had still sacrificed himself for them? How do you suppose Tolkien would have written it if this one plot development had not occurred?

Well, the orcs were bound and determined to capture the halflings. They saw two halflings and, by golly, they'd get those two halflings. So, if you were to assume that Merry and Pippin were not captured, that would mean the all the orcs had to be killed. I don't know if Aragorn, Legolas, Gimli, and *laughs* Merry and Pippin could kill such a force. If I were Tolkien and didn't want Merry and Pippin captured, here's what I'd do...

A few orcs find the remaining boats after Sam and Frodo have departed and sink them. Then, all the orcs would start battling Legolas, Gimli, and Aragorn who came upon Boromir at his death just in time to rescue the hobbits. *As the author, I would not want them following Frodo and Sam and I would know that all of them going on the same adventure together could get pretty boring and would ignore the rest of Middle Earth. So, I would want the rest of the fellowship to be involved in the defense of Middle Earth. So...* I would have Gandalf come to Eomer, who with his men were patrolling near the area, and have him come to the fellowship's rescue. Since Gandalf is back, he is now in charge. He says they are needed in Rohan he knows Frodo will have to take care of himself. So off they go, and the rest is as the book goes, except that Gandalf has yet to convince the Ents to go to war and Saruman attacks Helm's Deep because he knows the halflings are there and he still wants them.

[ February 18, 2003: Message edited by: aragornreborn ]

[Dondagnirion]

Good theory but Eomer would not have been patrolling that far out and Aragorn, Gimli, and Legolas could have taken out the orcs. Think about it, Tolkien had them chasing after the remaining orcs over a very VERY VERY long road, with barely any sleeping, eating or drinking, and still implies by them just doing this that they would have been able to destroy the orcs when they found them. Aragorn for one is not just any old human, he is THE BEST human warrior out there next to Turin and Hurin themselves. Gimli also is more than you think, he is not just any dwarf, he is a very significant dwarf-lord. Gloin (I assume you guys know that Gloin is Gimlis dad) went on the trip with Thorin and company. Thorin would not just have chosen anyone to go with him, only the best most important dwarves would do of course (as a side note to that Gimli would have gone on the trip with Thorin and company had he been a little older at the time they set out, Gimli says in Unfinished Tales that they would not let him go because he was too young at the time, my best estimate puts him at about 60 at the time, very young for a dwarf). Gimli was also Lord Of The Glittering Caves later in his life, the only place in ME where you could still find Mithril (discounting Moria that the dwarves were unwilling to return to after what happened to Balin). Aside from Gimli's obvious importance (which, I felt, needed to be established so people did not think I was making it up) Aragorn says this to Legolas about him "I have never seen an Axe wielded so." Those kinds of words coming from Aragorn himself point out a lot of skill. Legolas is also the best of the best, an elven prince, the fact that he is an elven prince just speaks for itself and if you dont think so just remember that he shot a Nazgul out the sky for Beren's sake!!
Anyway, that just shows that the three hunters could in fact have beaten off the orcs by themselves. Just thought I should show some support for the best freakin trio of hunters ever *grin*.
[img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Dondagnirion
"There is no spoon."

[aragornreborn]

Good points. I knew having Eomer come would be a bit of a stretch, but... I always hoped that the fearsome trio could do it alone. But, to get them involved with Rohan, I thought that perhaps having Eomer save the day might do the trick. "Oh, by the way, now that I've saved your lives, could you come save our King?" But, I agree, it would be pretty cool if they took them all on by themselves.

[ February 18, 2003: Message edited by: aragornreborn ]

[Kuruharan]

Well, since it was asked, and has not been explicitly done quite yet, Kuruharan the Longbeard proudly presents….

Gandalf the Marathon Sprinter!

The following presentation will totally ignore all other aspects of the potential alternate storylines and focus exclusively on Gandalf’s activities. This process will be confusing enough without interjecting other people into it.

We will begin on February 26 when Gandalf strove against Sauron in the mind of Frodo "in a high place."

Ready, Set, GO!

Feb. 26-Gandalf is in a high place, I presume somewhere in the Misty Mountains near Fangorn. As soon as Frodo sets off on his journey, Gandalf must rush down into Fangorn, find Treebeard, fan the flames of vengeance against Saruman, and if possible get Treebeard to have the Entmoot moved up to the next day as Gandalf has a pressing appointment in Edoras. However, Ents being the way that they are, this does not happen. However, since Gandalf is who he is, he gets the Entmoot moved up to the 28th.

Feb. 27-Gandalf spends a very frustrating day of biting his finger-nails and collecting reports.

Feb. 28-Entmoot begins. Gandalf delivers a fiery harangue about the evils of Saruman and the necessity of the Ents going out and kicking some butt. The furious torrent of Gandalf’s speech leaves the Ents feeling hopelessly bewildered and they adjourn for the rest of the day to recover. Gandalf, beside himself in consternation, bends his thoughts upon Shadowfax to get him into the general area post-haste.

Feb. 29-Entmoot resumes. Gandalf, shouting and gesturing hysterically, only manages to get the Ents more confused and muddled than they were before. Peeved that Shadowfax is "lollygagging" Gandalf mentally spurs the horse to greater speed and Shadowfax arrives in the area by evening.

Feb. 30-Entmoot continues. Abandoning the Ents to their bothersome deliberations, Gandalf dashes off in the general direction of Edoras, a journey of over 150 miles. Shadowfax being the horse that he is, they arrive there that night. The guards tell him to go away until morning.

March 1-A very ill-tempered Gandalf enters Edoras at dawn. Told that he must leave his staff and sword at the door Gandalf replies, "I can’t be bothered with that kind of crap!" and engages in a rather unseemly brawl with the door-wardens. After "accidentally" blasting one of the guards to cinders he is admitted. Unfortunately, Theoden’s guards, alert to the fact that they have a maniac threatening the king, have hidden Theoden away in some back room of the Golden Hall. Gandalf must restrain the urge to burn the place down and he begins an exhaustive search. The search takes most of the day, however Gandalf eventually finds the king. Realizing that the Ents probably need his inspirational presence by this point, Gandalf cures Theoden by bashing the king over the head with his staff. He rallies the Rohirrim, props Theoden up on Snowmane, and sends them off to the Fords of Isen. Gandalf rushes back to the Entmoot, but is not able to arrive until the next morning.

March 2-Gandalf arrives. Shadowfax collapses. Gandalf finds that the Ents are discussing the exciting possibility of the development of a new breed of oak trees. Gandalf sets the Ents back on course with his blazing oratory and a few strategically placed blows with his staff. Gandalf gets the Ents off on their march on Isengard "to hew the stone and break the door." Gandalf goes over, kicks Shadowfax, and tells him to "Quit lyin’ down on th’ job!!!" He rides a rather unwilling Shadowfax off to find Theoden. On the way he discovers that the Second Battle of the Fords of Isen has been lost. Gandalf finds Theoden. However, the Rohirrim are not going anything like fast enough, Theoden’s head is still aching villainously from his "miracle cure." Gandalf tells him to, "Quit bein’ such a baby!" and sends the Rohirrim to Helm’s Deep. Gandalf forces an increasingly surly Shadowfax to rush off to Isengard to make sure that the Ents haven’t messed everything up and to find Erkenbrand and slap him around and make him pull his rabble together.

March 3-Gandalf gets to Isengard and finds Treebeard. The poor Ent only thought that Gandalf was talking fast before. Treebeard gets dizzy and falls down. Gandalf eventually manages to get things arranged and then scampers off to find Erkenbrand. After finding Erkenbrand and gathering what Rohirrim he can find, Gandalf leads them in a glorious charge to save the day and have wondrous stories told of him for generations to come of his valor at the Battle of the Hornburg.

March 4-Gandalf and Theoden set off for Isengard. Shadowfax refuses to rise to anything more than a trot, which suits Theoden just fine. The king’s ears are still ringing.

March 5-Gandalf relieves his frustrations by telling Saruman, in highly colorful language, exactly what he thinks of him and by breaking Saruman’s staff. Feeling quite satisfied with himself he turns to go. Wormtongue pitches the palantir at Gandalf. Gandalf, delighted with his good fortune, blesses Wormtongue by putting a spell on him so that Wormtongue will be especially delicious for the next five days. Hoping that will solve all of his problems, one way or another, Gandalf drags Theoden and Shadowfax away from Isengard in the general direction of Helm’s Deep. Gandalf explains to Theoden that he should be expecting a message from Gondor any day now. A Nazgul flies over their party and everyone gets all scared. Gandalf goes off, leaving Theoden to continue at his own glacial pace, and makes for Helm’s Deep.

March 6-Gandalf gets to Helm’s Deep and squirrels himself away in the Hornburg. Putting on his best Aragorn disguise, Gandalf says "Boo!" to Sauron and generally gets him all hot and bothered. Hoping that this will cause Sauron to do something incredibly stupid, Gandalf dashes off to Minas Tirith to provide them with his invaluable wisdom and assistance.

March 7-Gandalf and Shadowfax ride for Gondor.

March 8-Shadowfax only thought that Gandalf was riding him hard earlier.

March 9-Gandalf arrives at Minas Tirith. He barges in the Front Gate. Shadowfax plops down and has an out-of-the-body experience. Gandalf storms up to the White Tower. Bursting through the door, Gandalf tells Denethor, "I won’t have time for this later!" and he abruptly burns Denethor to a crisp. After announcing that he is now the Steward of Gondor, he leaves some instructions for Imrahil to give to, "that useless git Faramir, if he ever decides to show up!" and then promptly whallops an exhausted Shadowfax into taking the wizard southward. He heads for Linhir, which is a healthy 200 miles away. Shadowfax is now only managing a crawl and Gandalf abandons him. He commandeers another mount and puts the "Fear of Fire" into the horse to make it go faster.

March 10-Gandalf attempts to rally the countryside that he passes through. He has to stop to burn a few haystacks and barns when the natives prove recalcitrant. The locals eventually agree to follow him.

March 11-Arriving at Linhir, Gandalf and his army send the enemy scurrying off in all directions. Gandalf leads the Gondorian Army to Pelargir, riding five horses to death in the process.

March 12-The Gondorians being the "pathetic weaklings" that they are, Gandalf arrives at Pelargir all by his lonesome, but it hardly matters. One incredibly ticked Maia is more terrifying than an army of dead men any day of the week and the enemy fall all over themselves in an attempt to get away. Gandalf relieves the frustrations of the past few weeks by personally killing them by the thousands. Drafting the local peasants to crew his new fleet, Gandalf sets off to save Minas Tirith since in his own words, "Those wimpy buggers have probably already keeled over and died by this point!"

March 13-His incompetent crews can’t figure out how to work the big battleships, and Gandalf has to waste time explaining to them some of the finer points of the arts of knot-tying and keel-hauling.

March 14-Gandalf arrives at Minas Tirith. It is a good thing too because the city is on the verge of falling even earlier than Gandalf had expected. Gandalf leads his army onto the shore, establishes a beachhead, and looks about for the Rohirrim who should have arrived by now. Gandalf has a fit when he discovers that Theoden is doing his best snail imitation and has not arrived yet. Big battle the rest of the day.

March 15-Ride of the Rohirrim. Sauron’s army is destroyed by the combined might of Gondor and Rohan. Unfortunately, Theoden dies in the glorious fracas. The last thing he hears is Gandalf’s voice shouting, "Where the Udun have you been?!!!" Gandalf, even though the prospective king is not there, raises the standard of the Kings of Gondor, and presides over a ceremony of fealty-swearing to…somebody (the people were not too clear on this point, but they did not dare say anything).

March 16-Debate of the commanders. Actually, dictation by Gandalf would be a more accurate description of what happened. Gandalf drafted every last man for hundreds of miles in all directions for one last, magnificent scrap, mano y mano, with Sauron’s armies; to decide once and for all who was going to lord it over Middle earth for all eternity.

March 17-Gandalf and Shadowfax are reunited. Gandalf spends all day trying on the wardrobe of the Kings of Gondor, just to make sure that he looks his best for the upcoming battle.

March 18-"The Host of the West" marches from Minas Tirith. After a hasty council, that name is summarily scrapped in favor of the name "The Host of Gandalf ."

March 19-The Host of Gandalf comes to Morgul-vale. Gandalf takes great delight in burning everything in sight.

March 20-22-The Host of Gandalf marches through Ithilien. Gandalf shows his gentler side by orchestrating a controlled burn of some of the excessive undergrowth.

March 23-The Host of Gandalf marches out of Ithilien. King Gandalf (as he now requires everyone to call him) encourages the faint-hearted by holding an enormous punishment parade; complete with mass floggings and beheadings. The army proceeds with renewed confidence.

March 24-The Host of Gandalf camps in the desolation of the Morannon. King Gandalf the Ecologically Conscious encourages the troops to plant flowers and trees to make the place look livelier.

March 25-The Host of Gandalf calls Sauron out. King Gandalf the Great tells the Mouth of Sauron that he has obviously not been flossing. That tears it! A honkin’ huge battle ensues. King Gandalf the Glorious was too busy directing his troops to victory to notice that there was a cataclysmic event that was not taking place.

March 26-After thoroughly routing Sauron’s army, The Host of Gandalf (what’s left of it) marches to Barad-dur. King Gandalf the Splendid makes plans to turn Mordor into a vast, desolate wasteland. King Gandalf the Furious realizes that he won’t have the satisfaction of turning Mordor into a wasteland. He orders the massacre of all the prisoners to satisfy his fury.

March 27-The Host of Gandalf reaches Barad-dur. Sauron comes out and abjectly surrenders. King Gandalf the Magnanimous graciously allows him to become the Royal Toady and Boot-licker, after he hands over the Ring. Sauron said that he thought that King Gandalf the Victorious had it. King Gandalf the Puzzled orders a thorough search of his new empire to find the Ring.

March 30-It is found that the Fellowship had indeed become entangled in the webs of Shelob. King Gandalf the Mighty sets Shelob on fire and frees the Fellowship. He promptly liquidates Aragorn as an unwanted rival, the rest of the Fellowship was spared because they meant well. King Gandalf the Magnificent then proceeds to the Field of Cormallen where everyone in the world had to "Praise Him With Great Praise!"

This date became the first day in the New Year of the Calendar of Gandalf.

As you can see from this exhaustive treatment, it was possible for King Gandalf the All-Powerful to accomplish a great deal in the time that he had on his hands.

(Oh dear! I seem to have gotten carried away with myself!)

[ February 19, 2003: Message edited by: Kuruharan ]

[Aratlithiel]

I don't know how well I can type as the tears clouding up my eyes and streaming down my cheeks are getting in the way. Oh my God, Kuruharan! That was too funny! You should send that in to the fan fiction section! "I won't have time for this later..." ROFL ooh, hoo! (Trying to breath steady before passing out.)

[littlemanpoet]

Hats off to you, Kuruharan. That was incredible! Carried away? Nah. [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img]

Um, back to the topic of Aragorn and Legolas in Mordor: Aragorn has elven blood and Legolas is an elf. I'm wondering if the elven cloaks would have made it impossible for the Ringwraiths to detect their Fea? You know how it's described in the Sil, Feanor and other Elves, such as Glorfindel, appear to Morgoth et.al. as beings of light. Um, Jackson even does a fair rendition of this with Arwen from Frodo's perspective in his FotR movie. What I'm trying to say is, wouldn't Aragorn and Legolas been detected, even with Elven cloaks?

Bonked on the head. Sheesh. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

[Kuruharan]

Really, you're too kind.

Aragorn has elven blood and Legolas is an elf. I'm wondering if the elven cloaks would have made it impossible for the Ringwraiths to detect their Fea? You know how it's described in the Sil, Feanor and other Elves, such as Glorfindel, appear to Morgoth et.al. as beings of light. Um, Jackson even does a fair rendition of this with Arwen from Frodo's perspective in his FotR movie. What I'm trying to say is, wouldn't Aragorn and Legolas been detected, even with Elven cloaks?

Well, lets run this answer up the flagpole and see if anybody salutes it.

I think that they would not draw attention to themselves in that particular way. All other things being equal, they would probably be able to pass unnoticed just as much as two hobbits. Now if somebody started paying particular attention to them for some reason, they might notice the beings of light aspect.