Time line questions

[Eruantalon]

Well I have a charctor called Eruantalon. He was 28 years old when the stewarts of Gondor took to governing Gondor. He was a high guard at the time. I was reading the time line looking for when that was(the stewarts governing) I think that was 2852 witch would make his birth year 2824. Is that right?

Also what year does the 4th age start. I mean if this is supposed to be the 7th age then how long where the ages 5 and 6. Does the age when men come around mean the actual time around 36,000 years ago?

That would make the story of the Lord of the Ring around 30 thousand some years ago. About the time when men entered northern Europe.

Can anyone help here?

[Arvedui III]

Huh? I think you're looking for the role-playing forum, dude.

[Tar-Palantir]

The line of ruling stewards began in 2050 TA.

The Fourth Age began when the ringbearers left ME in 3021.

[img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[Eruantalon]

i see how you misunderstood my question Tar.

In the 37,000 sum year history of human beings prehistory is domenent in our world. So we have about 5,000 years of recored history.

Where in the 30,000 sum year time line does the 4th age start? Is it 25,000 years ago ruffly?

Just was wondering?

[ February 14, 2003: Message edited by: Eruantalon ]

[Tar-Palantir]

Where did you get the number 30,000? I will try to work it out for you, but so you know, there is no concrete answer obviously.

1st Age- is like 580 years
2nd Age- is 3440 years
3rd Age- is 3021 years

total is approx. 7041 years.

the average length of an 'Age' is 2347 years

approximate total after six ages is 14,082

Due to the brief duration of the First Age I would estimate the +/- error ratio to be about 3000 years.

My conclusion? The total length of the first six Ages is between 11,082 and 17,082 years.

If you work in the fact that we are theoretically in the 2003rd year of the 7th Age: Year 1 of the First Age occurred between 13,085 and 19,085 years ago. With the median, and probably most accurate, number being:

drum roll please...

16,085 years have passed since day one 1st Age till now.

Does that answer your question? [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[ February 14, 2003: Message edited by: Tar-Palantir ]

[doug*platypus]

That's an answer, but probably not the correct one. Tolkien says (found in Letters) that the ages are now passing more quickly. The 4th, 5th and 6th, according to him, would not have been as long as the previous ones.

In order to make Tolkien's timeline work, and for Aragorn, his descendants and opposing kingdoms to eventually assimilate into our own world, I believe you would have to do one of the following:

• forget about prehistory, and begin the 5th age with the civilisations of Sumer
• introduce a cataclysm like the Biblical Flood to separate our times

Obviously Tolkien's history of our world is just an alternative, and not the real story. At the time of writing, I don't think people knew nearly as much as they do today about Darwinism, the missing link, and prehistoric societies. From his writing, I think that we can infer Tolkien didn't really care much for that sort of thing. And so his 7 Age timeline pretends that it never happened!

[Tar-Palantir]

I honestly don't care. But the math was fun. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] And I think it's a decent enough guess. So, how about it, just take an educated guess Mr. Platypus (or whoever), no need to be scholarly all the time. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

[Hookbill the Goomba]

This is all verry well, but arn't we forgeting the age of the trees, the lamps and all that? everyone seems to be frogeting the main parts of unfinished tails and Silmarillion! Try working out the time from the creation of Arda!

[Eruantalon]

LOL

Me and my pal Doug keep finding these things happening to us. We end up talking about things that upset people or ruffle feathers!!!

Well since there is a total history of mans exsitnce being 36,000 years it fits perfectly into Tolkiens works.

See Tar man left Aferica (Homo sapien sapien thats our current term) after a drought happened in Aferica. So we migranted to Europe.

Homo sapien sapien arrived around 36 or 37,000 years ago. That has nothing to do with the Lord of the Rings but it is a time frame to try and figure out where his story is in.

Thats all I was trying to ask. But thanks for the info Tar I appricate it a lot.

[Tar Elenion]

As published in PoME JRRT wrote:

'Ages' last about 3000 years.
[and]
Of the Tale of Years in the latter ages
The 'First Age' ended with the Great Battle and the departure of the Elves and Fathers of Men, and the foundation of Numenor.
The 'Second Age' ended with the overthrow of Sauron, and the Loss of the One Ring.
The 'Third Age' is drawing to its end in the tales of the Shire and of the Hobbits...
Each 'Age' last[ed] somewhat more or less than 3000 years...
[and]
The Tale of Years in the Latter Ages.
The First Age was the longest. It ended with the Great Battle...

The First Age lasted longer than 580 years.

[Tar-Palantir]

Well not by much!! I was estimating, but I'm certain was not more than 590. Prove me wrong. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Here is an online site's timeline (So I could just cut and paste, I'm so lazy):

Year Event(s)
1 Return of the Noldor to Middle-earth. Morgoth's army attacks Fëanor in Dagor-nuin-Giliath, the Battle under Stars, the second of the Great wars of Beleriand takes place. Feanor'sis slain by Balrogs.Awakening of Men in Hildórien.
50 Journey of Turgon and Finrod.
75 The great war of Dagor Aglareb. The Siege of Angband is set by the Princes of the Noldor.
100 Foundation of Nargothrond.
126 Completion of Gondolin. Turgon's people begin the migration from Nevrast.
265 Glaurung ravages Beleriand, but is driven back to Angband.
305 Men are discovered in Ossiriand by Finrod Felagund.
345 Return of Aredhel and Maeglin to Gondolin. Death of Eöl the Dark Elf.
389 Birth of Hador, later Lord of Dor-lómin.
443 Birth of Beren Erchamion.
445 Birth of Ereinion, later called Gil-galad.
450 Birth of Larnach.
455 Dagor Bragollach. Breaking of the Siege of Angband. Celegorm and Curufin flee Himlad for Nargothrond. Húrin and Huor are brought to Gondolin by Thorondor. Fingolfin slain in single combat with Morgoth.
456 Húrin and Huor return out of Gondolin to Dor-lómin.
457 Capture of Minas Tirith by the forces of Sauron.
462 Galdor is slain in the siege of Barad Eithel.
463 Birth of Túrin Turambar in Dor-lómin. Beren first comes upon Lúthien.
465 Celegorm and Curufin are exiled from Nargothrond and journey to Himring.
468 Finrod and Beren are imprisoned in Tol-in-Gaurhoth. Finrod is slain by a werewolf, but Beren is rescued by Lúthien.
469 Beren and Lúthien achieve the Quest of the Silmaril.
471 The Nirnaeth Arnoediad. Fingon is slain in the Nirnaeth. Turgon becomes High King of the Noldor. Huor is slain in the Fen of Serech, and Húrin is captured by Morgoth. Birth of Tuor.
472 Siege and capture of the Havens of Brithombar and Eglarest.
475 Birth of Dior Eluchíl on Tol Galen.
494 Approximate date of the reforging of Gurthang.
495 Sack of Nargothrond. The coming of Tuor to Gondolin.
498 Slaying of Glaurung, and deaths of Túrin Turambar and Nienor Níniel in Brethil.
500 Death of Larnach. Birth of Elwing.
502 Deaths of Beren and Lúthien.
503 Death of Thingol.
504 Journey of Dior to Doriath.
505 Assault by the sons of Fëanor on Menegroth. Dior, Celegorm, Curufin and Caranthir are all slain.
510 Fall of Gondolin and death of Turgon. Glorfindel slays a Balrog in the Encircling Mountains, and is himself slain.
560 Tuor and Idril sail into the West in the ship Eärrámë.
583 War of Wrath and the destruction of Beleriand. Angband is destroyed and Morgoth is banished from the World.

Just wanted to add that in 590 the Elves gave the Island of Numenor to the Edain.

[ February 16, 2003: Message edited by: Tar-Palantir ]

[Tar Elenion]

Well not by much!! I was estimating, but I'm certain was not more than 590. Prove me wrong. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Prove you wrong? JRRT wrote (as published in PoME):
"Each 'Age' last[ed] somewhat more or less than 3000 years..."
and
"The Tale of Years in the Latter Ages.
The First Age was the longest. It ended with the Great Battle...".
He also wrote in Letter 131:
"Several tales of victory and tragedy are caught up in it ; but it ends with catastrophe, and the passing of the Ancient World, the world of the long First Age."
If the First Age "was the longest" (as JRRT wrote), then you are wrong. I think what you need to do is prove that JRRT was wrong. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]
Perhaps you can provide a citation from JRRT stating that the whole of the "long" First Age lasted only 590 years (as opposed to just the later portion)?

By the way, the Valar gave Numenor to the Edain, not the Elves, and it was raised after the end of the First Age.

[ February 18, 2003: Message edited by: Tar Elenion ]

[Tar-Palantir]

Hi Tar, What I mean by 'prove' is to provide some dates or definitions. Specifically, what defines the "First Age"? Because apparently I don't know. And I am stubborn enough to not be satisfied by "it was longer than 580 years".

Anybody else have a take on this?
[img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[Tar Elenion]

Tar-Palantir wrote:
Hi Tar, What I mean by 'prove' is to provide some dates or definitions.

There are no 'specific' dates provided by JRRT. JRRT calls it "the longest", and "the long First Age".
The section of Letter 131 that refers to "the long First Age", begins with JRRT writing of how the "Cycles begin with a cosmological myth: The Music of the Ainur". He then writes "It moves then swiftly to the History of the Elves, or the Silmarillion proper; to the world as we perceive it, but of course transfigured in a still half-mythical mode: that is it deals with rational incarnate creatures of more or less comparable stature with our own" and continues with the nature and making of Elves and Men. The section ends with him writing about the overthrow of Morgoth and Earendil being placed in heaven as a star.
By this letter it would seem to me, though this is speculation, that the First Age likely began with the Awakening of the Elves (followed soon there after by Men and Dwarves 'historically' atleast, if not in 'mannish myth') or between then and the time when they made it to Aman. The time of the cosmological myths could be the earlier ages implied by the mention of the First Second and Third Ages being 'later ages' in the Tale of Years drafts in PoME.

[ February 16, 2003: Message edited by: Tar Elenion ]

[ February 18, 2003: Message edited by: Tar Elenion ]

[Tar-Palantir]

Thanks. What is PoME? [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[Tar Elenion]

Peoples of Middle-earth (PoME), book 12 in the History of Middle-earth (HoME) series which are writings of JRRT that his son compiled and had published.

[Findegil]

May be we must pull in "Myths transformed" hear?

The timeline with about 590 years for the first age is clearly based on the untransformed myth. Were the first age begins with the first raising of the sun. (this myth you can find in "The Silmarillion" and a fuller timeline is given in "The History of Middle-Earth": volume 11: "The war of Jewels")

In "Myths Transformed" ("The Histairy of Middle-Earth"; volume 10: "Morgoth's Ring") Tolkien changed his mind about the timeline and astronomy of Middle-Earth greatly.
So it might be that the first age of that transformed Myth would start with the awakening of the children of Ilúvatar. But we do not know because Tokien hadn't left a timeline for that myth.
In the Letter, that say we are at the end of the 6th or the beginning of the 7th age (I do not know the numbers out of my head) is also a footnote that makes clear that Tolkien imagined a time gap between his time and the fall of Baradur of 6000 years.

So that is the fact to start with. I have made calculation with that approximation and the time of the recorded moon phases in the Hobbit and the Lord of the Ring. It is a rather complicate calculation and is not jet oneline, so that I can't give a link to the summary. (But I wouldn't help you to much, because it is as jet only in German - may be it is time to make a translation.)
For short the outcome was quiet simple: Taking the year of the letter an the year of adventure of Bilbo (from which I started) into account the 6000 years were not a approximation but perfectly to the point. The moon phases agreed to the tale in a period of about 7 years but with less good fit for the other years around the time gap of 6000.
So if you like to know how long it since what ever event in Middle-Earth take the year of the letter (which I can't remember know), go back 6000 years and you will land your self in 3019 Third Age.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Tar Elenion]

May be we must pull in "Myths transformed" hear?
The timeline with about 590 years for the first age is clearly based on the untransformed myth. Were the first age begins with the first raising of the sun. (this myth you can find in "The Silmarillion" and a fuller timeline is given in "The History of Middle-Earth": volume 11: "The war of Jewels")

Please provide a citation from JRRT stating that the First Age began with the (mytholgical) first rising of the sun when the Noldor came back into Beleriand.

The Letter noting the "long First Age" (#131) is from 1951, and the cited passage from PoME noting for exampe that the First Age was the longest are likely from about 1954 or perhaps a little earlier. This is before the Myths Transformed writings which are from the late 1950's.

In "Myths Transformed" ("The Histairy of Middle-Earth"; volume 10: "Morgoth's Ring") Tolkien changed his mind about the timeline and astronomy of Middle-Earth greatly.
So it might be that the first age of that transformed Myth would start with the awakening of the children of Ilúvatar. But we do not know because Tokien hadn't left a timeline for that myth.

This would make the 'astronomy' consistant with LotR which has a sun and moon existing well before the return of the Noldor to Middle-earth.

[ February 18, 2003: Message edited by: Tar Elenion ]

[Maerbenn]

Tar Elenion, I do believe you, but could you please provide a citation from JRRT stating that the 'astronomy' of LotR has a sun and moon existing well before the return of the Noldor to Middle-earth? [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[Findegil]

Here we go with the asked for quotation. I take it from The History of Middle-Earth; volume 10: The War of the Jewels; part I:The Gary Annals (in may HarperCollins hardback-edition it is on page 30). I will start in the middle of paragraph 52 that described the march of Fingolfins host over the ice. I will also shorten it, only to spare me some typing. The Text it self was written in the very early 50th and a typescript was made of it may be in 1958:

... And even as they set foot upon Middle-earth, the ages of the Stars were ended, and the time of the Sun and Moon was begun, as is told in the Chronicle of Aman.

YS 1 [Year of the Sun]
§52 Here the Moon and the Sun, wrought by the Valar after the death of the Trees, rose new in the heaven. First the Moon came forth, and even as it rose above the darkness in the West Fingolfin let blow his silver trumpets, and began his march into Middle-earth; and the shadows of his host went long and black before them.
... But soon after there came the first Dawn of the Sun, ...
...

§56 From this time are reckoned the Years of the Sun. Swifter and briefer are they than the long Years of the Trees in Valinor. Lo! in that time the growth and the changing and ageing of all things was hastened exceedingly; and all living things spread and multiplied in the Second Spring of Arda, ...

Okay to be fair it was the first rising of the Moon that started the First Age as said in the quotation above. But that makes only a very small deferens. (I hope, you are content, Tar-Elenion. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] )

quote from Tar-Elenion:

The Letter noting the "long First Age" (#131) is from 1951, and the cited passage from PoME noting for exampe that the First Age was the longest are likely from about 1954 or perhaps a little earlier. This is before the Myths Transformed writings which are from the late 1950's.

Things are often not that simple as they seem to be, when we are looking for dates of changes in Tolkiens fantasy-universe. You are certainly right, Tar-Elenion, that Tolkien worked during the early 50's with the flat-earth version of his myth. But when he started that work he, for the first time, thought about a transformation for which he laid out the plans a couple of years later in the text given as Myths Transformed.
I will give a short quote of the preference to that part of Morgoth's Ring (volume 10 of The History of Middle-Earth) from Christopher Tolkien:

In these writings can be read the record of a prolonged interior debate. Years before this time, the first signs have been seen of emerging ideas that if pursued would cause massive disturbance in “The Silmarillion”: I have shown, as I believe, that when my father first began to revise and rewrite the existing narratives of die Elder Days, before “The Lord of the Rings” was completed, he wrote a version of the Ainulindalë that introduced a radical transformation of the astronomical myth, but that for that time he stayed his hand (pp. 3-6, 43). But now, as will be seen in many of the essays and notes that follow, he had come to believe that such a vast upheaval was a necessity, that the cosmos of the old myth was no longer valid; and at the same time he was impelled to try to construct a more secure 'theoretical' or 'systematic' basis for elements in the 'legendarium' that were not to be dislodged. With their questionings, their certainties giving way to doubt, their contradictory resolutions, these writings are to be read with a sense of intellectual and imaginative stress in the face of such a dismantling and reconstitution, believed to be an inescapable necessity, but never to be achieved.

Especially when you think The Lord of the Rings featured a round-earth myth (which is in it self debatable), you can not deny that JRR Tolkien was not sure what to do with his myth during the complete 50’s until he settled down for the change in the late 50's with the texts published in Morgoth's Ring part 4 and 5.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Tar-Palantir]

Thanks Findegil and all. I have not read the HoME series yet and I appreciate your research.

[Tar Elenion]

Maerbenn asks:
Tar Elenion, I do believe you, but could you please provide a citation from JRRT stating that the 'astronomy' of LotR has a sun and moon existing well before the return of the Noldor to Middle-earth? [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Certainly, [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] I could simply provide statements from Morgoth's Ring such as "The Making of the Sun and Moon must occur long before the coming of the Elves; and cannot be made to be after the death of the Two Trees - if that occurred in any connexion with the sojourn of the Noldor in Valinor. The time allowed is too short. Neither could there be woods and flowers &c. on earth, if there had been no light since the overthrow of the Lamps!"; but that would be too easy. So let us look at LotR itself:

The world was young, the mountains green,
No stain yet on the Moon was seen,
No words were laid on stream or stone
When Durin woke and walked alone.
He named the nameless hills and dells;
He drank from yet untasted wells;
He stooped and looked in Mirrormere,
And saw a crown of stars appear,
As gems upon a silver thread,
Above the shadow of his head.
The world was fair, the mountains tall,
In Elder Days before the fall
Of mighty kings in Nargothrond
And Gondolin, who now beyond
The Western Seas have passed away:
The world was fair in Durin's Day.
A king he was on carven throne
In many-pillared halls of stone
With golden roof and silver floor,
And runes of power upon the door.
The light of sun and star and moon
In shining lamps of crystal hewn
Undimmed by cloud or shade of night
There shone for ever fair and bright.

This is Gimli's song of Durin I, the first and eldest of the Dwarves. It is interesting how when he awakens there is an (unstained) Moon, yet the 'mannish mythology' would have the Moon not exist until the return of the Noldor (by which time the Dwarves had spread far and wide). It is also interesting that the light of 'sun, star and moon' shone from dwarvish lanterns in Khazad-dum when there was (according to mannish myth) no sun and moon.

We can also look at Galadriel's lament:

I sang of leaves, of leaves of gold, and leaves of gold there grew:
Of wind I sang, a wind there came and in the branches blew.
Beyond the Sun, beyond the Moon, the foam was on the Sea,
And by the strand of Ilmarin there grew a golden Tree.
Beneath the stars of Ever-eve in Eldamar it shone,
In Eldamar beside the walls of Elven Tirion.
There long the golden leaves have grown upon the branching years,
While here beyond the Sundering Seas now fall the Elven-tears.

The "there" that Galadriel is singing of is Aman she would find it difficult to sing there 'beyond the Sun and Moon', if there was no sun and moon to sing beyond, considering that 'mythologically' she left Aman before the sun and moon came into being.

We could also go to The Hobbit:

For most of them (together with their scattered relations in the hills and mountains) were descended from the ancient tribes that never went to Faerie in the West. There the Light-elves and the Deep-elves and the Sea-elves went and lived for ages, and grew fairer and wiser and more learned, and invented their magic and their cunning craft, in the making of beautiful and marvellous things, before some came back into the Wide World. In the Wide World the Wood-elves lingered in the twilight of our Sun and Moon but loved best the stars; and they wandered in the great forests that grew tall in lands that are now lost. They dwelt most often by the edges of the woods, from which they could escape at times to hunt, or to ride and run over the open lands by moonlight or starlight; and after the coming of Men they took ever more and more to the gloaming and the dusk. Still elves they were and remain, and that is Good People.

The Wood-elves (and their relations) linger for ages under the sun and moon, while the Light-, Deep-, and Sea-elves travel to the West, and this is still before the Noldor came back.

[ February 19, 2003: Message edited by: Tar Elenion ]

[Tar-Palantir]

This was quoted from History of Middle Earth #10 "Morgoth's Ring" by Tar Elenion:

The Making of the Sun and Moon must occur long before the coming of the Elves; and cannot be made to be after the death of the Two Trees

This was quoted from History of Middle Earth #11 "The War of the Jewels" by Findegil

Here the Moon and the Sun, wrought by the Valar after the death of the Trees, rose new in the heaven.

Shall I just toss a coin? [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

[Tar Elenion]

Findegil writes:
Here we go with the asked for quotation... <snip>
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
... And even as they set foot upon Middle-earth, the ages of the Stars were ended, and the time of the Sun and Moon was begun, as is told in the Chronicle of Aman.
YS 1 [Year of the Sun]
§52 Here the Moon and the Sun, wrought by the Valar after the death of the Trees, rose new in the heaven. First the Moon came forth, and even as it rose above the darkness in the West Fingolfin let blow his silver trumpets, and began his march into Middle-earth; and the shadows of his host went long and black before them.
... But soon after there came the first Dawn of the Sun, ...
...

§56 From this time are reckoned the Years of the Sun. Swifter and briefer are they than the long Years of the Trees in Valinor. Lo! in that time the growth and the changing and ageing of all things was hastened exceedingly; and all living things spread and multiplied in the Second Spring of Arda, ...


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Okay to be fair it was the first rising of the Moon that started the First Age as said in the quotation above. But that makes only a very small deferens. (I hope, you are content, Tar-Elenion. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

I was content for a year and a month, but have, alas, been left quite discontent now [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img] , but that is another matter.
No, I am afraid I am not content with the quote, because it mentions nothing about the First Age, which appears only in your interpretation (though you may find something in earlier works). It speaks of the 'ages of the stars', the 'time of the Sun and Moon', and the 'Years of the Sun'. Nothing about the First Age (and this dovetails with JRRT's writings of this period about the 'long First Age' and the 'First Age being the longest'. The First Age started well before the return of the Noldor. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Things are often not that simple as they seem to be, when we are looking for dates of changes in Tolkiens fantasy-universe. You are certainly right, Tar-Elenion, that Tolkien worked during the early 50's with the flat-earth version of his myth. But when he started that work he, for the first time, thought about a transformation for which he laid out the plans a couple of years later in the text given as Myths Transformed.

I am not specifically addressing the 'flat-earth', but rather the Sun and Moon, however he also worked on a 'Round World Version', the so called 'Ainulindale C*', before the completion of LotR, and even lent a typescript of it out in 1948. This is what CT is refering to in the quote you graciously provided. (I snipped it for space)
[img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Especially when you think The Lord of the Rings featured a round-earth myth (which is in it self debatable), you can not deny that JRR Tolkien was not sure what to do with his myth during the complete 50’s until he settled down for the change in the late 50's with the texts published in Morgoth's Ring part 4 and 5.

Well, I was referring specifically to a pre-existing sun and moon in LotR, not a 'flat-earth'. Nor do I find it particularly debateable that the Sun and Moon existed in LotR (and The Hobbit (R)) well before the return of the Noldor to Middle-earth (as the various quotes I provided in responce to Moerbenn show).
[img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]
Thanks

[Tar Elenion]

Tar-Palantir wrote:
Shall I just toss a coin?

Not as easy as all that, unfortuntely, one must look at time and context of the writings, and how they may relate. One may be 'myth' and one 'reality'.
[img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[ February 19, 2003: Message edited by: Tar Elenion ]

[Findegil]

Ah, Tar-Elenion, so what are you argue about is that the years of the sun as they are counted in The Grey Annals and The Tale of the years in The War of the Jewels during the First Age (obviously only 590 years) provided only a very small part of that same First Age? So the rest of the 'long First Age' was filled with years of the stars or years of the trees as they are named in The Grey Annals and the Annals of Aman?

And as an evidence for that you provide the quotations about the 'long first age' and 'the first age was longest' that are given in this thread?

Well, yes it is possible, but very fine spun. Some times I think it easier and more natural to live with contradictional ideas worked with by JRR Tolkien at the same time, than to search for such complicate solutions which can bring all his statements together.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Tar Elenion]

Correct the 590 Years of the Sun were the end of the long First Age. I dont find it complicated (nor is it contradictory) at all since JRRT does not say that the 590 YS is the whole of the First Age (particularly when you note for example YS 1, not FA 1).

[Findegil]

My apologise Tar-Elenion. I have re-read The Tales of the Years in The War of the Jewels and found to my surprise not an argument against your point but the absolute proof for it:

In the manuscript as it was originally written the Elder Days began with the Awakening of the Elves: 'Here begin the Elder Days, or the First Age of the Children of Ilúvatar'; but 'the Elder Days' was struck out and does not appear in the typescript.

I had missed that one or forgot about; so all my argument against your opinion is vain.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Tar Elenion]

Thanks. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]
I had not remembered that one.