Spiders?

[Celebuial]

I have noticed that giant spiders that aren't really spiders at all, but just physical manifestations of something which descended from the Darkness outside of the Universe, seem to keep cropping up everywhere...

Well not being a very well read person I started to wonder that seeing as Tolkien has an ongoing theme with evil spiders (Ungoliant, Shelob and even the spiders of Mirkwood) and other authors such as Stephen King (in IT the spider practically is Ungoliant) & Rowling have the same idea, that unless they simply copied Tolkien there must be some kind of myth or something where evil 'spirits' from 'outside' present themselves in the form of spiders.

I guess that most of you guys have read the letters and HoME (I'm only on the 3rd volume!!!), so you can probably fill me in on where the spider thing comes from... If not I'm sure lots of you learned 'Downers are interested in Mythology and stuff...

[Morsul the Dark]

I think its more that people in general just dont like spiders i dont know why but to most people they give you a queezy feelig

rowlings spider was actually good as i recall except his/her children were little
ba---rds anyway the only myth i know of as har as spiders go well two actually..some native americans believe a giant spider wove the cosmos. and the other is greek

this lady aracna boasted of being the best weaver even better than helena(the goddess) helena freaks out goes down to challenge her aracna wins and helena is all like i hate you so she turns her into a spider and thats where spiders come from.

now remember in IT if I recall correctly the clown took the shape of whatever you feared most when it was the spider it was only because thats what the kid feared if he was scared of teletubbies it would have been a teletubby

except maybe ungolient none of the spiders were really evil; shelob was only fighting for survival as were the mirkwood spiders. and ungolient was fighting melkor(although i dont know why so im probably wrong about this next bit) if ungolient was evil wouldnt she have Aattacked yvanna or one of the other "good" guys?

I think spiders are just creepy and thats why theyre so prominent theyre like a universal fear.

[Celebuial]

Hmm.. I was under the impression that the spider was IT's most natural form... well other than the 'lights'...

I guess you're right thou about the evil part... We can't really call any of them evil as they were mostly just fighting for survival. Although to me it still seems that Ungoliant only wanted to devour eveything simply because she could, and not because she needed all of it as sustenance.

I guess spiders are a universal fear but surely that can't just be because they look and move creepily; there must be some myth that set he fear off. Maybe the Native American Indians views had something to do with this... It could stem from a fear of the unknown and maybe a fear that something had power over you or power to destroy the whole cosmos and therefore you, if it had the power to create it ...

[Bêthberry]

There are spider legends and stories in many, many mythologies, Celebuial, so I don't think anyone can say that other authors copied Tolkien. If you do a google search for spiders in mythology, you will find many links, but here are some of the best known stories.

Anansi, the trickster god in African legend

Some Japanese spider myths

The story of Arachne in Ovid (Greek)

Some North American spider/weaving stories of creation

Not all of these mythic stories involve evil per se, but the link between weaving and creation is clear. Tolkien seems to have suggested that the spider goddess created an early form of the world before Eru and he decided to represent this as evil and disgusting. And the Downs is often overrun with 'search spiders' of course!

Have fun googling on the modern web!

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

I think that we have to accept that in the world of Tolkien giant spiders are evil !

As statet before Ungoliant was greedy, she wantet to eat all just because she could. It was this that became the end of her.

Shelob is called evil in the books is she not ? She like Ungoliant want's to eat everything she can. (- Gollum as he could be of some use) If we do not accept that at least these two are evil, we will end up with a philosophical discusion of what evil is.
Or at least a confusing story, becouse then the orcs are not evil, they do not realy want to fight, neither do the mouth of Sauron. He just wants a nice place to live

[Alcarillo]

Tolkien was bit by a tarantula as a child in South Africa. A nurse sucked out the poison. Perhaps his giant spiders of later stories are in memory of the giant tarantulas of South Africa.

[Glirdan]

I believe that Tolkien, Stephen King (IT was such a stupid movie!!!) and Rowling all used it because a common phobia is arachnophoia (sp?) and not a whole lot of people like spiders. They were probably using the spiders to demonstrate the fear in those places (is. Mirkwood, the Dark Forest in Harry Potter). If that is the case, they used it well because evertime I read about the spiders in Mirkwood, I can feel the fear there is in there. Anyone else think that?

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Alcarillo

Tolkien was bit by a tarantula as a child in South Africa. A nurse sucked out the poison. Perhaps his giant spiders of later stories are in memory of the giant tarantulas of South Africa.

Like any writer worth his salt, though, Tolkien denied any direct biographical importance. According to his biographer, Carpenter, "he [Tolkien] said the incident left him with no special dislike of spiders." (p. 27 in my edition of the biography, chapter "Bloemfontein").

Of course, some of us don't ascribe to the 'author knows everything' version of events.

[Aiwendil]

I think that it's right that the tendency to view spiders as evil is pretty much universal in human cultures. But I'm surprised no one has yet mentioned what is most likely the root of that predisposition - research strongly suggests that we have a genetic tendency to fear spiders. The evolutionary reason is presumably the same as in the case of fear of snakes - the poisonous varieties (which are particularly common in Africa, where humans evolved) posed a great threat to our distant ancestors' survival.

[Morsul the Dark]

your surprised no one brought that up? i certainly didn't know that very interesting idea...

[davem]

Originally Posted by Bb

Tolkien seems to have suggested that the spider goddess created an early form of the world before Eru and he decided to represent this as evil and disgusting.

That's one of the most intriguing concepts I've come across on the Downs. So that's the explanation for Ungoliant? She was the Creatrix of the worlds, & an eternal presence in them, in one form or another. She is the Weaver & the Unweaver. Reminds me of Ariadne/Arianrhod in the Prophecies of Merlin.

Seems we are dealing with the 'Translator Conceit' again. Eru as Demiurge, Ungoliant as Weaver of the Worlds. I wonder if there was a Middle-earth equivalent of Nag Hamadi......

[Lalwendë]

Looking at folklore, spiders are not always seen as evil. I cannot think of any prominent British folktales which feature spiders, not to the same extent that Anansi is known. There is the tale of Robert Bruce; hiding as a fugitive in a cave, so the familiar tale goes, he watched a spider try to weave her web over and over again, which inspired him not to give up. This is a story where the spider is an inspiration. There is a particular maypole dance known as the 'spider web', which involves people holding alternately coloured ribbons dancing in and then out of one another, creating a spider web pattern. And I remember the spider being one of the many things that the old woman swallowed after swallowing the fly.

Yet folktales from the Americas and Africa have trickster or evil spider characters. Perhaps this is due to other areas of the world having dangerous spiders, whereas in the UK our spiders are all totally harmless. We don't have Hunstman spiders for one thing, who will actually come over and bite you should they feel threatened; British spiders merely kindly offer their services by eating our flies and nits.

Even so, a lot of children seem to have a fear of spiders, which I think might stem from the fact that their webs get stuck all over you when you walk or run into them, which isn't nice (though much nastier for the poor spider). So Tolkien might have been playing up on some people's general fear of spiders, but I don't think he was making use of British folklore in creating giant, malevolent spiders. As someone who happens to find spiders fascinating creatures and who has no need to fear them, the fact that Shelob was a giant spider did not scare me, it was more the knowledge that she was a predatory creature made large which made me fear for Frodo and Sam.

I find the idea that Ungoliant sucked the Light from the Two Trees interesting as spiders do have a habit of liquifying their prey and sucking their food up. They are also a predatory creature, and they tend to live in darkened places; there is also a misconception that all female spiders kill and eat the males. For most of his giant spiders, I think Tolkien was simply using a creature associated with darkness and with predatory behaviour to conjour up a strong concept of fear. But as regards Ungoliant, Tolkien created something fascinating, as she is a creature which seems to be the antithesis of Light and creation, an arachnid black hole which devours light, so the idea of her being a personification of 'evil' is interesting. or perhaps rather than her being 'evil', maybe she is there as a necessary opposite to creation? Who created her? Is she on a 'par' with Eru?

[Celebuial]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

Is she on a 'par' with Eru?

Very vey interesting question....I'd love to look into this. Where can I read more about Ungoliant? I only have vols 1, 2 & 3 of HoME... and I've obviously read The Sil, I don't remember much that would help though. In fact I don't ever remember coming across this theory either...

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

Tolkien seems to have suggested that the spider goddess created an early form of the world before Eru and he decided to represent this as evil and disgusting.

May I enquire as to where Tolkien suggests this?

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Celebuial

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bêthberry
Tolkien seems to have suggested that the spider goddess created an early form of the world before Eru and he decided to represent this as evil and disgusting.


May I enquire as to where Tolkien suggests this?

This possibility is an interpretation of the story of Ungoliant in The Silm, where Ungoliant apparently inhabits the void which existed prior to Eru's thought/singing and outside His creation.

a sound arose of endless interchanging melodies woven in harmony that passed beyond hearing into the depths and into the heights, and the places of the dwelling of Iluvatar were filled to overflowing, and the music and the echo of the music went out into the Void, and it was not void. ... 'Therefore I say: Ea! Let these things Be! And I will sent forth into the Void the Flame Imperishable, and it shall be at the heart of the World, and the World shall Be; and those of you that will may go down into it.' ...

It is true that when the Valar descended into the World, they found it dark, but there is also something beyond the confines of the world. Then, later, Ungoliant is described thusly:

The Eldar know not whence she [Ungoliant] came; but some have said that in ages long before she descended from the darkness that lies about Arda, when Melkor first looked down in envy upon the Kingdom of Manwe, and that in the beginning she was one of those that he corrupted to his service. But she had disowned her Master, desiring to be mistree of her own lust, taking all things to herself to feed her emptiness...

I suppose one could be pedantic and argue that void and emptiness are opposites of creation, are a form of not-being, but nonethess the possibility exists that she is something from outside Iluvatar's creation.

[Lalwendë]

Just out of interest, here is how Tolkien describes Shelob's origins and nature:

There agelong she had dwelt, an evil thing in spider-form, even such as once of old had lived in the Land of the Elves in the West that is now under the Sea, such as Beren fought in the Mountains of Terror in Doriath, and so came to Luthien upon the green sward amid the hemlocks in the moonlight long ago. How Shelob came there, flying from ruin, no tale tells, for out of the Dark Years few tales have come. But still she was there, who was there before Sauron, and before the first stone of Barad-dur; and she served none but herself, drinking the blood of Elves and Men, bloated and grown fat with endless brooding on her feasts, weaving webs of shadow; for all living things were her food, and her vomit darkness. Far and wide her lesser broods, bastards of the miserable mates, her own offspring, that she slew, spread from glen to glen, from the Ephel Duath to the eastern hills, to Dol Guldur and the fastnesses of Mirkwood. But none could rival her, Shelob the Great, last child of Ungoliant to trouble the unhappy world.

This does suggest that Shelob is more than a merely large spider. She is the last child of Ungoliant - possibly something of a Half-Ungoliant, the last of the spider Peredhil, as t'were. She seems to have exceptional long life, maybe even to have endless life (and does she die after this? I think maybe not). She both eats traditional prey and vomits darkness. She has no master and follows nobody but herself; like Ungoliant she is something of a mystery.

As an aside, this is a quite beautifully written passage. Beginning with a rich aura of legend, mentioning Beren and Luthien, it builds slowly into the horror that Shelob presented to the unwary.

[Thinlómien]

This does suggest that Shelob is more than a merely large spider. She is the last child of Ungoliant - possibly something of a Half-Ungoliant, the last of the spider Peredhil, as t'were.

Perhaps she could be compared with Lúthien, who was a half-maia also?

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

Perhaps she could be compared with Lúthien, who was a half-maia also?

As Bêthberry noted, it is not a given that Ungoliant was a Maia. Her nature and origins are, to my mind, amiguous.

Indeed, valiant though Samwise undoubtedly was, it would surely have been a tall order for him to defeat a half-Maia in single combat ...

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

As Bêthberry noted, it is not a given that Ungoliant was a Maia. Her nature and origins are, to my mind, amiguous.

Indeed, valiant though Samwise undoubtedly was, it would surely have been a tall order for him to defeat a half-Maia in single combat ...

I have a nasty habit of making every powerful being whose origin is not clear a maia (fg. Tom Bombadil, Ungoliant). Otherwise they don't fit into my image of Arda...

The latter part is probably true, though it was actually an accidental suicide by Shelob... Poor Sam.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

I have a nasty habit of making every powerful being whose origin is not clear a maia (fg. Tom Bombadil, Ungoliant). Otherwise they don't fit into my image of Arda...

The latter part is probably true, though it was actually an accidental suicide by Shelob... Poor Sam.

Actually, it was not accidental suicide. We aren't told if Shelob dies.

Shelob was gone; and whether she lay long in her lair, nursing her malice and her misery, and in slow years of darkness healed herself from within, rebuilding her clustered eyes, until with hunger like death she spun once more her dreadful snares in the glens of the Mountains of Shadow, this tale does not tell.

Ungoliant cannot be considered Maia. She existed, possibly, outside Illuvatar's creation, coming from the Void. Possibly She and He existed there together? As SaucePanMan says, her origins are ambiguous. And those of Shelob simply replay with slightly more detail a similar kind of ambiguity.

in a rush. will return...

[Thinlómien]

Actually, it was not accidental suicide. We aren't told if Shelob dies.

Probably I'm again assuming too much... Oh yes we aren't told... I just meant that it actually wasn't that much Sam's doing. But, if Sam weren't there, Shelob wouldn't have hurted herself.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Bethberry

I suppose one could be pedantic and argue that void and emptiness are opposites of creation, are a form of not-being, but nonethess the possibility exists that she is something from outside Iluvatar's creation.

there in Avathar, secret and unknown, Un- goliant had made her abode. The Eldar knew not whence she came; but some have said that in ages long before she descended from the darkness that lies about Arda, when Melkor first looked down in envy upon the Kingdom of Manwe, and that in the beginning she was one of those that he corrupted to his service. But she had disowned her Master, desiring to be mistress of her own lust, taking all things to herself to feed her emptiness; and she fled to the south, escaping the assaults of the Valar and the hunters of Orome, for their vigilance had ever been to the north, and the south was long unheeded. Thence she had crept towards the light of the Blessed Realm; for she hungered for light and hated it.

In a ravine she lived, and took shape as a spider of monstrous form, weaving her black webs in a cleft of the mountains. There she sucked up all light that she could find, and spun it forth again in dark nets of strangling gloom, until no light more could come to her abode; and she was famished.

Now Melkor came to Avathar and sought her out; and he put on again the form that he had worn as the tyrant of Utumno: a dark Lord, tall and terrible. In that form he remained ever after. There in the black shadows, beyond the sight even of Manwe in his highest halls, Melkor with Un-goliant plotted his revenge. But when Ungoliant understood the purpose of Melkor, she was torn between lust and great fear; for she was loath to dare the perils of Aman and the power of the dreadful Lords, and she would not stir from her hiding. Therefore Melkor said to her: 'Do as I bid; and if thou hunger still when all is done, then I will give thee whatsoever thy lust may demand. Yea, with both hands.' Lightly he made this vow, as he ever did; and he laughed in his heart. Thus did the great thief set his lure for the lesser.

I think Bethberry is definitely on to something here, as the text clearly states that Ungoliant's origins are different to those of any other being. She is not Valar or Maia, as she did not come to Arda when they did, and she is not of Arda, as the text states she descended from the darkness. If Eru created Arda, then she cannot have been there already, as the Ents may have been. It seems she did come from the void, that place which is outside everything else. I like this, as it also tallies with my concept of her being something of a black hole in tangible, sentient form.

What I also like about this is that it allows for the possibility of other forms of existence outside Eru's control. Who knows which other enigmatic characters may have 'descended from the void'?!

And yet another thing I like is that Ungoliant is a morally grey character. She could indeed be the Trickster figure. Notice in the text above how Ungoliant is tempted by Melkor and then rejects him, preferring to go her own way! That must have taken incredible strength; and it also suggests that she was corrupted by him. Melkor then goes to work again on her 'lust' and gets her to take part in his plans.

Yet no song or tale could contain all the grief and terror that then befell. The Light failed; but the Darkness that followed was more than loss of light. In that hour was made a Darkness that seemed not lack but a thing with being of its own: for it was indeed made by malice out of Light, and it had power to pierce the eye, and to enter heart and mind, and strangle the very will.

This again is an odd passage. It seems that by getting Ungoliant to do what she did, Melkor unleashed 'Darkness', the opposite of Light. It seems to grow the more Ungoliant devours Light. And this Darkness has "power to pierce the eye, and to enter heart and mind, and strangle the very will". Hmm, reminds me of something in LotR, that does...

Far beneath the ruined halls of Angband, in vaults to which the Valar in the haste of their assault had not descended, Balrogs lurked still, awaiting ever the return of their Lord; and now swiftly they arose, and passing over Hithlum they came to Lammoth as a tempest of fire. With their whips of flame they smote asunder the webs of Ungoliant, and she quailed, and turned to flight, belching black vapours to cover her; and fleeing from the north she went down into Beleriand, and dwelt beneath Ered Gorgoroth, in that dark valley that was after called Nan Dungortheb, the Valley of Dreadful Death, because of the horror that she bred there. For other foul creatures of spider form had dwelt there since the days of the delving of Angband, and she mated with them, and devoured them; and even after Ungoliant herself departed, and went whither she would into the forgotten south of the world, her offspring abode there and wove their hideous webs. Of the fate of Ungoliant no tale tells. Yet some have said that she ended long ago, when in her uttermost famine she devoured herself at last.

I had to add this in out of interest. Ungoliant is then pursued by Balrogs and we see how she comes to go into hiding and mate with lesser spiders (if indeed she is a spider at all) and hence produce Shelob. What is amazing here is that Ungoliant may yet be alive!

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

She is not Valar or Maia, as she did not come to Arda when they did, and she is not of Arda, as the text states she descended from the darkness.

While I tend towards the theory that she is not of the Ainur, I don't think that we can definitively state that Ungoliant was not a Maia. The "darkness that lies about Arda" could still be part of Ea, the Universe, in which Arda lies, and which was created by the will of Eru. A Maiarin Ungoliant could therefore have entered Ea after it had been created and subsequently descended to Arda after the establishment of Manwe's kingdom.

[Gothmog]

About Ungoliant:

The Eldar know not whence she came; but some have said that in ages long before she descended from the darkness that lies about Arda, when Melkor first looked down in envy upon the Kingdom of Manwe, and that in the beginning she was one of those that he corrupted to his service. But she had disowned her Master, desiring to be mistree of her own lust, taking all things to herself to feed her emptiness...

I don't think Ungoliant was some sort of creator, maybe even before Eru. Even if she existed in the Void before Arda, it doesn't mean she was equal or as old as Iluvatar. Ainur, creations of Eru's will, existed before Arda. The quote used by Bethberry:

a sound arose of endless interchanging melodies woven in harmony that passed beyond hearing into the depths and into the heights, and the places of the dwelling of Iluvatar were filled to overflowing, and the music and the echo of the music went out into the Void, and it was not void. ... 'Therefore I say: Ea! Let these things Be! And I will sent forth into the Void the Flame Imperishable, and it shall be at the heart of the World, and the World shall Be; and those of you that will may go down into it.' ...

Speaks of events after the singing of Ainur. There's no hint of the creation of the Void or what might have been before Eru made the Ainur in the Silmarillion. The first sentence for example is:

There was Eru, the One, who in Arda is called Ilúvatar; and he made the first Ainur, the Holy Ones, that were the offspring of his thoughts, and they were with him before aught else was made.

Eru is pictured as eternal, a being existing long before time itself. And it says literary that nothing else existed before he created Ainur. Ungoliant could have lived in the Void before the creation of the world, but this doesn't imply that she wasn't created by Eru. Melkor often wandered in the void places seeking the Imperishable Flame. But could a monster like Ungoliant be a creation of Eru and why? If so, was she created at the time of the Ainur, maybe even as an Ainu? Corrupted Ainu is no new occurrence, and they had the ability to take whatever shape they wanted.

Ungoliant as a revolting Ainu who didn't participate in the singing and dwelt in the Void before the creation of Arda but AFTER Eru created the Ainur looks to me like the most likely explanation. Or have I missed any suggestions of her existing before Ainur?

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

I had to add this in out of interest. Ungoliant is then pursued by Balrogs and we see how she comes to go into hiding and mate with lesser spiders (if indeed she is a spider at all) and hence produce Shelob. What is amazing here is that Ungoliant may yet be alive!

A terrible thought... Yet it's unprobable. Just imagine what if she had popped up in The War of The Ring and joined forces with Sauron? Or her descendant Shelob? Or what if she had terrorized the free peoples on her own? Or turned out to be hiding in the Mirkwood and attacked wood elves or woodmen?

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

While I tend towards the theory that she is not of the Ainur, I don't think that we can definitively state that Ungoliant was not a Maia. The "darkness that lies about Arda" could still be part of Ea, the Universe, in which Arda lies, and which was created by the will of Eru. A Maiarin Ungoliant could therefore have entered Ea after it had been created and subsequently descended to Arda after the establishment of Manwe's kingdom.

At least some one in some way thinks along the same lines as I do...

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

At least some one in some way thinks along the same lines as I do...

Well, I'm really just saying that Ungoliant may be a Maia, or she may not be. It's ambiguous so, in the absence of any further evidence, it's really up to the individual reader.

For myself, I prefer not to classify anything that is not one of the known races of Arda or animal invitably as an Ainu. I like to think that there are other possibilities, when it comes to the nature of beings such as Ungoliant, Huan and Thorondor.

[Gothmog]

Cross posted with both SpM and Lalwende in my last post...

What I tried to get through is that even if Ungoliant came from the Void, does that mean she's outside Eru's control?
Lalwende:

I think Bethberry is definitely on to something here, as the text clearly states that Ungoliant's origins are different to those of any other being. She is not Valar or Maia, as she did not come to Arda when they did, and she is not of Arda, as the text states she descended from the darkness. If Eru created Arda, then she cannot have been there already, as the Ents may have been. It seems she did come from the void, that place which is outside everything else. I like this, as it also tallies with my concept of her being something of a black hole in tangible, sentient form.

What I also like about this is that it allows for the possibility of other forms of existence outside Eru's control. Who knows which other enigmatic characters may have 'descended from the void'?!

What says that Eru didn't create the Void? And even if he didn't, things he created could dwell there. There was a time before Arda we can't forget. Arda is translated: The Realm and is according to Sil.

name of the Earth as the Kingdom of Manwe

Kingdom of Manwe, not Iluvatar. Arda is the creation of Eru through the song of Ainur. Eru doesn't lack control of everything outside Arda, Arda is a part of HIS realm.

But as Saucepan Man says, it's up to the reader. We don't know where Ungoliant came from, but the thought of her as equal of Eru seems farfetched. At least to me.

[Thinlómien]

Ungoliant as a revolting Ainu who didn't participate in the singing and dwelt in the Void before the creation of Arda but AFTER Eru created the Ainur looks to me like the most likely explanation. Or have I missed any suggestions of her existing before Ainur?

This needs clearing up. Not participating? Do you mean that:
* Eru didn't notice her not participating?
* Eru let her 'miss' the singing?
* Eru had no power to force her to sing?
All sound a bit strange to me... I suppose you had something else in mind.

And as Ungoliant as an equal with Eru sounds ridiculous. (No insult meant by this; I just think it doesn't fit Tolkien's image of one God.)

[Thinlómien]

I like to think that there are other possibilities, when it comes to the nature of beings such as Ungoliant, Huan and Thorondor.

Probably we should start a new thread about these "other possibilities"...

[Gothmog]

Actually, Thinlomien, I didn't have anything special in mind. But the thought of her singing with the other's feels to strange. At the same time, if she wasn't created at the creation of Arda (which she obviously wasn't), I prefer to think of her as one of Ainur, created by Eru. Why would Eru force her to sing? Let's assume she had a dark heart from the start and dwelled in the void far from the others. If she then decide not to participate in the singing then what would Eru win by forcing her? A destructive force in the creation of Arda?

But maybe she decided to join in the choir. There were voices that joined Melkor in his own melodies. She could have been corrupted during this singing. "In the beginning she was one of those that he corrupted to his service." (look at post quotes below for full extract from silm.) Then she decided to stay in the void outside the world and not descend in to it immidietly. She might have dwelt in the Void before and after the creation of Arda.

Does any of this make sense? I'm not really fit for this right now... And yeah, let's discuss the "unknown forces of Arda" a year or two

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Tolkien, Silm

There was Eru, the One, who in Arda is called Ilúvatar; and he made the first Ainur, the Holy Ones, that were the offspring of his thoughts, and they were with him before aught else was made.

But if Ungoliant wasn't made?

I am the first to agree that this is very ambiguous, but not impossible. It exists not as something 'provable' or definite, but as an intangible suggestion. And it exists more probably also because of Tolkien's own interest in mythology.

There are many creation myths involving spiders or spiders as Tricksters--Anansi for example, from Africa. The intangible vagueness may simply represent the way in which Tolkien's imagination worked to incorporate his knowledge of mythology even while he was working within his own system of belief. Remember, we are not working with what we know of Tolkien's beliefs outside of the text; that can help us, but it does not in itself provide validation for what is in the created fantasy world. We are looking at the text and determining the values and system of belief within the subcreated world. References external to the text can be applicable, but they cannot by themselves exclude possibilities which the text might offer.

[Gothmog]

I see your point Bethberry, it depends on how literary you want to interpret the word made. And then we can discuss why Eru is called the One.

But I'm not going to discuss this further. It's up to every one of us what we want to believe and I'm going to leave it at that. In fact, none of us can prove anything, only try to convince others that what I hold for true is true, and as entertaining as it might seem it's really quite pointless. We've reached the point were most of the facts have been studied, right?

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Gothmog

I see your point Bethberry, it depends on how literary you want to interpret the word made. And then we can discuss why Eru is called the One.

But I'm not going to discuss this further. It's up to every one of us what we want to believe and I'm going to leave it at that. In fact, none of us can prove anything, only try to convince others that what I hold for true is true, and as entertaining as it might seem it's really quite pointless. We've reached the point were most of the facts have been studied, right?

As you wish. I won't even bite on your comment about Eru as the One (because that can be discussed).

However, I do want to point out that I am not here on a discussion forum to "convince others that what I hold for true is true." I am here to discuss ideas, not to promulgate my personal beliefs, nor to refute the personal beliefs of others.

And as for facts, well, the number of ways they can be studied is limited only by the limits of the human mind and imagination. After all, look what Fordim did with his poll on balrogs.

[Gothmog]

Oh, I didn't mean the thing about "what I hold for true is true" the way it sounded Of course we're all here to discuss. And by sharing our own beliefs we often end up convincing others, or being convinced ourselves. Or we just end up discussing things til the end of times

So feel free to keep discussing. I felt that I had to few arguments and facts to keep arguing for my point of view. Besides, that's my point of view right now. Maybe I'll change my mind, but for now there's not enough to make me believe in a creating-all mighty-spider godess

P.S. I'd like to hear the discussion of "the One", but this might not be the best of places =)

[davem]

http://northernway.org/hgoddess.html

[Lalwendë]

Looking through HoME, Ungoliant is always given as having unknowable origins - some texts hint that she appeared in Arda when the Lamps were broken, but in the Book of Lost Tales something very interesting is said:

for here dwelt the primeval spirit Moru who even the Valar know not whence or when she came, and the folk of Earth have given her many names. Mayhap she was bred of mists and darkness on the confines of the Shadowy Seas, in the utter dark that came between the overthrow of the Lamps and the kindling of the Trees, but more like she has always been;

And in the commentary:

In the tale her origin is unknown, and though this element may be said to have remained in The Silmarillion..., by the device of 'Some have said...' a clear explanation is in fact given: she was a being from 'before the world', perverted by Melkor...The original idea of 'the primeval spirit Moru' is made explicit in an entry in the early word list of the Gnomish language, where the name Moru is defined as 'a name of the Primeval Night personified as Gwerlum or Gungliont'

This shows that the earliest intentions of Tolkien at least were to have Ungoliant as a being from outside Arda, maybe even to represent something which was not of Eru's making or control, as is suggested by 'Primeval Night'.

To me, looked at in this way Ungoliant is a truly amoral creature, something like a Trickster (though we also never see her take 'beautiful' form by way of charming those she meets). She is tricked into helping Melkor, via her greed (or maybe her needs?) but she shows him no allegiance. Ungoliant is a being from the older, darker Faerie.

Perhaps as Tolkien's legendarium developed there became less of a place for such an amoral creature so that eventually we were left only with vague hints of Ungoliant's true nature. Taking on board the idea that the stories were from the point of view of Elves and those on the definite side of 'Light', then there would not be room for a lack of a moral code in a creature, and there would not be room for a creature who was outside of the control or even creation of Eru.

[Formendacil]

Ungoliant may or may not be a Maia. The evidence would suggest, it seems, that it is not.

However, she is clearly not a being with an origin akin to Eru. She must, in my opinion, be a creature of his making (somehow) in origin.

My reasoning is that unless she is derived from Eru, then she is logically his peer. not necessarily His equal, but of the same level of being.

However, this simply does not fly, because Ungoliant is WEAKER than than the created creatures of Eru. She feared Melkor in his prime. She feared the Valar, and would not venture into Valinor without Melkor's coaxing and aid. She was also driven off by mere Balrogs.

Now, if Ungoliant was Eru's peer- no matter how weaker, she would not be in such fear of His creations, or in such danger from them.

So, in my opinion, Ungoliant must of necessity be a creation of Eru's of some sort. This does not necessarily make her an Ainu in origin. Or, if she was, then she is still not automatically relegated to a Vala or Maia status.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Formendacil

However, this simply does not fly, because Ungoliant is WEAKER than than the created creatures of Eru. She feared Melkor in his prime. She feared the Valar, and would not venture into Valinor without Melkor's coaxing and aid. She was also driven off by mere Balrogs.

Now, if Ungoliant was Eru's peer- no matter how weaker, she would not be in such fear of His creations, or in such danger from them.

Very good point that she seems weaker because she fears Melkor and in particular, his Balrogs. And yes, she also fears the Valar, or more specifically, she fears to upset them.

But then this could equally point to the possibility that Ungoliant is indeed of a wholly different nature to any other being on Arda. I note that Tolkien makes the point that she was 'corrupted' by Melkor, and yet he still states that it was simply in her nature to weave her webs of Darkness. These webs do not seem to be inherently evil, just something which Ungoliant creates, and Melkor exploits.

She seems in some ways to be equated with Death. So just as Eru is Light and Life, Ungoliant could be his equal in Death and Darkness.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

She seems in some ways to be equated with Death. So just as Eru is Light and Life, Ungoliant could be his equal in Death and Darkness.

I thought of that too.

Ungoliant seem like this void of moral ruin! She is the incarnation of the sins of death! She is not only darkness, but she is infact unlight!

The thing is you cannot have good, with out evil. There for Ungoliant has to appear, so when Eru creates all she is automatical createt too.

A theory I have read about is that Ungoliant is a manifistation of the evil in Morgoth's soul, a evil that grew independent of him. Because she is only the evil in him, she is darker than darkness.

Last comment: The whole thing of beeing darker than darkness seems to bee the most important thing about Ungoliant and I think that it holds the answer to her origin.

[Thinlómien]

Last comment: The whole thing of beeing darker than darkness seems to bee the most important thing about Ungoliant and I think that it holds the answer to her origin.

It may be so, but I don't that it will be left there... You know; the answer is not complete, so the discussion can continue...

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Formendacil

However, this simply does not fly, because Ungoliant is WEAKER than than the created creatures of Eru. She feared Melkor in his prime. She feared the Valar, and would not venture into Valinor without Melkor's coaxing and aid. She was also driven off by mere Balrogs.

Now, if Ungoliant was Eru's peer- no matter how weaker, she would not be in such fear of His creations, or in such danger from them.

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

Very good point that she seems weaker because she fears Melkor and in particular, his Balrogs. And yes, she also fears the Valar, or more specifically, she fears to upset them.

But then this could equally point to the possibility that Ungoliant is indeed of a wholly different nature to any other being on Arda.I note that Tolkien makes the point that she was 'corrupted' by Melkor, and yet he still states that it was simply in her nature to weave her webs of Darkness. These webs do not seem to be inherently evil, just something which Ungoliant creates, and Melkor exploits.

She seems in some ways to be equated with Death. So just as Eru is Light and Life, Ungoliant could be his equal in Death and Darkness.

I'm with Lalwendë] on this one, so I have bolded the part of her position which I think is the most significant, although my argument is slightly different.

Formendacil's point is predicated upon the belief or demand that that there is one consistent manner of behaving and a hierarchy of authority where only those on top are the most powerful. (That of course almost reflects the kind of hegemony implied in the unitary vision of divinity.) Yet Ungoliant's being is not unlike the tumultuous foment of Chaos, which waxes and wanes through a variety of forms and stages. This is in fact her strength, I suppose it can be said, that she is multiplicitous rather than uniform.