Music of the Ainur: Rap? Country? Opera?

[Angry Hill Troll]

I don't think we have any information on the question as phrased above.

What I'm wondering is, for those of you own the Letters or other biographical material, what do we know about Tolkien's taste/background in music?

Clearly music has an important role in Tolkien's work, both as a forshadowing or metaphor for creation (Music of the Ainur) but also the many songs/lays of LOTR and The Silmarillion which are not, strictly speaking, integral to the plot.

Did Tolkien play an instrument? Sing in a choir? Attend symphony or opera regularly? Was it his exposure to the Finnish Kevala (mythology set to music if I recall) that influenced the central role of music in his writings? Does he ever express his tastes in music or what music means to him personally?

[Naldoriathil]

According to his son Christopher and Biographer Bradley J Zirzer, he like classical music. He had paintings of mozart on the walls in his study and also like Bach and a bit of Beethoven. This is all we know, hope that helps.

[Inderjit Sanghera]

Tolkien was known to be a avid Tupac fan. He felt that his lyrics really reached out to him.

Seriously, I excpect J.R.R to have listned to some classicla/Orchestral music, and I think I remember that Tolkien described the music of the Ainur to be like a orchestra-except better.

[Liriodendron]

Classical/ orchestral, Yes! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] (IMO) All those different themes, intertwining and playing off of each other, in unfathomable complexity. (this reminds me of living beings, and how the body systems work together) I would like to ask a naive question at this point! Did the three themes represent different "ages"? (perhaps?) [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] and the final "chord"....the end of time??? Who?...what...?? [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[the witch king]

I dont think so, lotr was set in the 3rd age of the sun, there was also the ages of lamps, trees and stars

[TolkienGurl]

Quote from J.R.R. Tolkien: A Biography by Humphrey Carpenter

She [his mother] also tried to intrest him in playing the piano, but without success. It seemed rather as if words took the place of music for him, and that he enjoyed listening to them, reading them, and reciting them, almost regardless of what they meant.

I don't think Tolkien played any instruments, unless it was later in his life (I am only in the beginning of the biography.)

T.G.

[greyhavener]

I imagine the Ainur's music to be more like medieval choral music, Gregorian chant or something, perhaps with some strings to flesh it out.

[Angry Hill Troll]

That's a very interesting quote, TolkienGurl!

Certainly it foreshadows Tolkien's future vocation as a linguistics professor, whose hobby was inventing his own languages.

It's kind of surprising that, at least at the time, he wasn't much interested in music. I'm tempted to speculate that perhaps his greater love of music later in his life might have had something to do with associating it with his mother, after she had passed away. But that's purely speculative on my part.

I personally would envision the Music of the Ainur as a very elaborate choral work, since the book does say that they actually sang, rather than played instruments. Of course maybe their voices sounded like instruments.

Varda: harp?
Tulkas: tuba?
Melkor: electric guitar (or microphone) with lots of feedback? [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img]

Thanks to everyone for their good information and insights! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[doug*platypus]

We already know what Durin's Bane the Balrog played:

Drums, drums in the deep.

I read Letters of JRR Tolkien recently (definitely worth a read!), and I'm convinced he only liked Classical and Opera. Hardly surprising since he was born in 1892. It was funny hearing him insult the music of the 1930s as being so new and brainless, when these days a lot of us would call it old-fashioned! Sometimes it's easy to forget that LOTR is already 50 years old.

[Inderjit Sanghera]

Wasn't it the Orcs playing the drums in Moria?

[Ithaeliel]

I always thought the drums were supposed to be the footfalls of the balrog in Moria, but then there was this passage:

They looked back. Dark yawned the archway of the Gates under the mountain-shadow. Faint and far beneath rolled the slow drum-beats: doom.

So I'm somewhat confused as to what the drums were. But I'm off the topic. The music of the Ainur I imagined to be voices that sounded similar to orchestral instruments, and they sang together in harmony. Then Morgoth made a different theme, and they sort of fought with each other: there was a dissonance, maybe sort of like a canon. I imagine it to be medieval as well.

[Beren87]

I always imagined there to be little drummer-orcs.

[lindil]

Great topic Angry Hill troll!

From the War of the Jewels [HoM-E 11]we have one of my very favorite uses of language by JRRT.

It also happens to be on the language of the Valar.

It does not directly refer to music but it palinly gives an intimation as to how their voices could have conveyed music, especially the Music of the Ainur.

The speaker is Pengolodh citing a 'saying' of Rumil:

For the tounges of the and voices of the Valar are great and stern, and yet also swift and subtle in movement, making sounds that we find hard to counterfeit; and their words are mostly rapid, like the glitter of long swords, like the rush of leaves in a great wind or the fall of stones in the mountains.

PEngolodh comments [ and I love this!]'Plainly the effect of Valarin upon Elvish ears was not pleasing'.


So if one can wed the above idea of their speach with an image of their singing in said fashion, perhaps one can come abit closer to hearing the Music of the Ainur.

[ February 10, 2003: Message edited by: lindil ]

[Frodo Baggins]

Well then the music is wind through the trees, light on water, the sound of a waterfall. the sound of rain.....

Actually, when I think of the music of the Ainur, I think fo something like Johann Pachelbel's Canon in D. Where the music weaves in and out and around in differnt little flows, and whirls, and tunes.

[lindil]

Well then the music is wind through the trees, light on water, the sound of a waterfall. the sound of rain

No I don't think that is it, so much as the lines indicate some sense of the depth and breadth of communication they use.

[Arwen Imladris]

From Ainuluindale:

Then the voices of the Ainur, like unto harps and lutes, and pipes and trumpets, and viols and organs, and like unto countless choirs singing with words, began to fashion the theme of Iluvatar to a great music; and a sound arose of endless interchanging melodies woven in harmony that passed beyond hearing into the depthes and into the heights...

That is what the music of the Ainur sounded like.

[GlingleglingleglingleFairy]

i think, somehow, that the music of the ainur would not necessarily be classical; there is modern music that to me can be just as beautiful. i think, then, that it would be a mixture of all the music that is special to me and anyone because you have to picture (hum) however his words are to you. for me its a mixture of: the four seasons, beethoven, pink floyd, bolero, carmina burana, metallica + so many others.

[Afrodal Fenyar]

Hey, it's Kalevala, not Kevala :P

[Angry Hill Troll]

Hey, it's Kalevala, not Kevala :P

My apologies Afrodal, I was afraid I was misremembering the name [img]smilies/confused.gif[/img]

...their words are mostly rapid, like the glitter of long swords, like the rush of leaves in a great wind or the fall of stones in the mountains.

Plainly the effect of Valarin upon Elvish ears was not pleasing

For some reason, as I was reading this quote I was trying to picture what Treebeard's reaction would be upon listening to the Valar speak. I suspect he would have been beside himself hearing such a hasty language! [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

More seriously, the description of Valarin and its musicality strongly echoes the quote that TolkienGurl posted above about how words were Tolkien's music.

[Duncariel]

Arwen, somewhere up there, is correct...

Then the voices of the Ainur, like unto harps and lutes, and pipes and trumpets, and viols and organs, and like unto countless choirs singing with words, began to fashion the theme of Iluvatar to a great music; and a sound arose of endless interchanging melodies woven in harmony that passed beyond hearing into the depthes and into the heights...

that (as she said) is from the Ainuluindale, of the Ainur.
Hill Troll's comment about Melkor and the guitar rocked(withour the static)

[Lady Alasse]

I imagined the music of Ainor as a symphany. All the parts working together to make one beautiful masterpiece.
Anyone else notice how Eru even used Melkor in the melody. He incorperated it into the music and made the music even more beautiful. Personally I think music sounds a lot better when you have a bit of discord that is resolved at the end. This makes me think of poetry. musicmade of words.

[Liriodendron]

I thought Melkor made the music worse! ?? So what is the point/ meaning of the three themes.

Start...bad noise (thank-you Melkor)...new theme. Bad Melkor sound agin, (even worse than before)....Melkor actually takes over....sorry!! Iluvatar sternly gestures for a third and different theme, and it grows and takes power and now there are two themes playing simultaniously, conflicting, (elves and men?) Then, a grim faced Iluvatar stops it all in one all encompassing chord.

Ok, What does this mean!!! ( Is this shame that Melkor felt, the fuel that fires ALL of the anger?) Thoughts? opinions? ( once again, this might be a naive question, but isn't it all about the music? )

[ February 21, 2003: Message edited by: Liriodendron ]

[Ithaeliel]

I always interpreted it as the three "über-ages (empires, reiches, whatever you want to call it" of Éa- the shaping and undoing repeated three times up to the silencing of everything and demise of the earth. I could be way off, but it's just my inference.

As for the clash of Melkor and Eru, this is what I think:

Beginning of theme- Purity and innocence of the world and its people
Melkor and Iluvatar clash- Evil enters the world
Melkor's theme grows and overtakes Iluvatar's- Battle between good and evil. Evil gradually grows and leads to the undoing of the music's beauty and the overthrow of good.

[Lady Alasse]

You are right Melkor tries to make his own music to bring his own desires into the theme. He contends against Eru with the music. The discor grows then Eru starts a new theme, but Melkor's music grows louder and drowns out Eru's music. Then Eru starts a third theme. This theme starts softly and sorrowfully but Melkor can not drowned it out. It just keeps growing and growing. Melkor's music sounds "vain and endlessly repeated" and the most triumphant notes in Melkors music are taken and woven into the other music's pattern then Eru raises his hands high and there is one chord "deeper than the Abyss, higher than the Firmament, piercing as the light of the eye of Iluvatar." and the music stops.

It says in the Silm that at the end the Ainor will again play there music and it will sound even more beautiful because each one shall know his part.

[GaladrieloftheOlden]

I have always imagined the Music of the Ainur to be figurative, more like a gathering of colors and sounds, swirling through and around each other, which would make up something of inimaginable beauty. I don't know, really.

[Lady Alasse]

Just a quick thought. I wonder if the Music was made with voices, musical intruments, colors, just words? what do you think. It's really hard to decide which I think. whatever mood I'm in changes how I think the music would sound.