The Grace of Ilúvatar?

[Thinlómien]

Reading the thread "And Eru smiled" I came across another theological ME-related question. What happens after death/ at the end to those of the children of Ilúvatar who have somehow "worked against him"? I mean are they punished in some way? Or do they get grace as in Christianity? Or does such a thing as work against Ilúvatar even exist, if everything is due to fate and everything is set before it happens? And what about Melkor? Will he be punished or wil he have grace? Any ideas?

[Frodo Baggins]

Thinlomien, you read my mind. I was wondering the same thing this morning and was about to begin a thread such as this. It seems all Elves go to Mandos, at least until they are reborn. But Elves do not concern me at present. And dwarves really aren't technically "Children of Eru" but more children of Aule.

Men are what I had in mind. It is said that men go to be whith Eru when they die but I wondered is that for ALL men? In Christianity do be given Grace you must repent of your sins and accept Jesus as Lord and King. In a Christian sense (which is doubtless what Tolkien had in mind) the only people who go to heaven or to "Be with Eru" if you will, are those who are obedient to God. Eru laid down laws I know for the Elves but I wonder if they apply to men as well. There are some men of Middle-earth that are good and follow the law of Eru and there are those that are "bad", evil men that work against the side of good. (There's some evil Elves too, to be sure but they don't concern me at present.) So, do all men go to Eru when they die or just the good men?

There's something somewhere about Melkor being finally punished forever but I forget where and it's not in anything in my library, so others will have to help with this.

[burrahobbit]

Melkor gets his head cut off. You only get grace if you deserve it.

[Ar-Pharazon]

I cant remember exactly but doesnt Melkor/Morgoth get sent to an oblivion, a state of existence devoid of any sensation for the rest of existence.

As for the fate of good and evil men, it maybe like in many religons that each soul is judged after death of being worthy of acceptance into a heaven-like state of being. Im guessing any of the fallen are sent on to the same fate as Melkor.

~Ar

[HerenIstarion]

Originally Posted by burrahobbit

Melkor gets his head cut off. You only get grace if you deserve it

Um, more or less so. Not exactly 'deserve it', 'undeserving' may get it if they wish for it, or even retain ability to wish for it, rather. Melkor ceased to wish anything but his own self and lordship.

[burrahobbit]

Respectfully disagree. Where does it say that?

[HerenIstarion]

1. Sauron by the end of the first age
2. Gollum on the stairs, prior to Sam abusing him

Undeserving, but almost there

1. Noldor and Men, and Earendil's prayer before the Valar
2. 9 ships of the Faithful

Underserving, and there

[Morsul the Dark]

Uh aren't the halls of morgoth kind of like Hell with Balrogs as demons... I haven't read the lost tales in a while but that sticks out in my mind

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Morsul the Dark

Uh aren't the halls of morgoth kind of like Hell with Balrogs as demons... I haven't read the lost tales in a while but that sticks out in my mind

To judge by the fact that references of that nature are never to be seen in the post-Lost Tales era, I think we can say that that was an idea that Tolkien discarded...

[burrahobbit]

Morsul: sort of but I don't think you're on exactly the right track. They were sort of analogous to Hell, with demons and such, but you didn't go there for being naughty, and they were destroyed a long time ago anyway.

HerenIstarion: I still disagree. I would say that all of those people deserved grace at those particular times, and beyond that I would say that it takes quite a lot to keep a person from deserving grace. Even though Sauron had been a very naughty boy up until that point he still had the chance to repent, and was even close to doing it. It's basically the same idea as all of the discussion about why Manwe let Morgoth out of his chains. Everyone has to be given the chance to repent, and if they take that chance they can be opened up to receiving grace. Sauron did not ever repent and accept grace, so when he was defeated finally he just sort of blew away. You could say that he was given grace just by the fact that he was allowed the chance to repent, but I would disagree with that and say that it is so morally encumbant on any entity to allow a person the chance to repent that it is just a matter of course. If Eru/Manwe/Eonwe had not given him that chance they would have proved themselves to be malevolent beings. (A bit of an overstatment, but to the point.)

[Mister Underhill]

But isn't "deserving of grace" a contradiction in terms? The very definition of grace is that it is not deserved, but is given as a mercy: "grace: 1 a : unmerited divine assistance given humans for their regeneration or sanctification".

[burrahobbit]

What I mean is you don't give grace to naughty people.

[Mister Underhill]

Sure you do, that's the point.

[burrahobbit]

Oh you cad. You don't give it to somebody that is so naughty that they have refused every opportunity to repent their sinning ways.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Basically, yes, you do. However, it is true that the window of opportunity may not remain open permanently.

[mark12_30]

Originally Posted by Formendacil

To judge by the fact that references of that nature are never to be seen in the post-Lost Tales era, I think we can say that that was an idea that Tolkien discarded...

Momentary aside: Perhaps he didn't discard it as much as adapt it. Moria, the Dead Marshes, Cirith Ungol, Minas Morgul, the Morannon, and the rest of Mordor don't strike me as heavenly, or hospitable, or even nice. Even Isengard goes through a rather hellish phase. I think the theme of a hellish place in which one would much rather not be detained shows up again and again.

Originally Posted by burrahobbit

but you didn't go there for being naughty, and they were destroyed a long time ago anyway

True. But Morgoth was banished from Arda-- for being both naughty and unrepentant. I doubt the place he was banished to was Nice.

Back to the regular topic...

[Frodo Baggins]

Yes but there is true repentance and false repentance. I do not believe Mortogh really repented and was truly sorry of what he did. When Manwe let him go he was still as nasty as before and didn't care one straw whether or not he was causing grief for everyone else. Morgoth, I believe, only said he was sorry to get out of the sticky situation the Valar put him in. To put it more simply, Morgoth was not sorry for what he had done, he was only sorry he got caught.

Those who are genuinely repentant and truly seek forgiveness, who stop what evil they are committing, are gladly given grace.

[Gurthang]

Originally posted by Frodo Baggins
Yes but there is true repentance and false repentance.

True, but the mind of Eru, who I think this question is referring to, sees the true intent behind a repentance. Meaning He really knows whether you're sorry or not and there is no way to fool Him.

Originally posted by burrahobbit
Oh you cad. You don't give it to somebody that is so naughty that they have refused every opportunity to repent their sinning ways.

I think he's got a point here. If a person refuses the grace that is being offered, can he receive it? I'd say no. The Noldor are a prime example. They forsook the 'grace' of living in Aman and left. At that point, the offer of 'grace' was withdrawn from them so that they could not come back, like Estelyn mentioned.

[HerenIstarion]

Originally Posted by Mr. Underhill

But isn't "deserving of grace" a contradiction in terms? The very definition of grace is that it is not deserved, but is given as a mercy: "grace: 1 a : unmerited divine assistance given humans for their regeneration or sanctification".

Yes, that's the point, unmerited being the keyword. I'll go along with noone being deserving per se. Rest, I'll agree with:

Originally Posted by burrahobbit

that they have refused every opportunity to repent their sinning ways

Deliberately omitting 'you don't give...' part of the sentence, seeing as it is unprovable in either direction. (1. No one knows mind of Eru as a whole 2. Eru is free at all times 3. Eru is merciful)

Eru

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Estelyn Telcontar

Basically, yes, you do. However, it is true that the window of opportunity may not remain open permanently.

So, what you are suggesting, Estelyn, is that we make hay while the sun shines?

Originally Posted by HerenIstarion

1. No one knows mind of Eru as a whole

HI, I'm surprised at you, acknowledging the difficulty with the 'authorial intention' camp like that.

[mark12_30]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

So, what you are suggesting, Estelyn, is that we make hay while the sun shines?

One never knows when one might be hit by a truck. Or, barring trucks, a falling rock.

The medieval mystics used this reminder as a method of keeping their accounts short: if I were to die in five minutes, would I regret leaving this as it is? Or would I wish that I had:

--loved more deeply
--offered forgiveness
--finished what I started
--...etc.

HI, I'm surprised at you, acknowledging the difficulty with the 'authorial intention' camp like that.

There is knowing the author and there is knowing The Author. One is, simultaneously, more easily known and less easily known than the other. Which wraps back around, of course, into the Grace of Iluvatar; take it away, Esty, H-I and Mister Underhill.

[Frodo Baggins]

Well, if Eru is never decieved by intentions behind repentace the Valar certainly were. Maybe I'm wrong but Nienna's pity got in the way of her seeing the truth and Manwe was deluded enough to let Morgoth go the first time.

[Gurthang]

Exactly. Morgoth was able to give a good enough appearance of repentance that the Valar gave him freedom. They had offered him the chance after all, and for all that they saw, he was sorry and willing to start anew. But it was not so.

Now if the same happened with Eru, I believe it would play out like this: Eru would offer Melkor the chance to repent. Melkor then has the choice to either truly repent or to fake a repentance(useless) or to deny the offer. Whatever he decides, not only is Eru able to see his real intention, but He has know Melkor's choice before He even offered the forgiveness.

[Formendacil]

Here's the pertinent quote regarding the forgiveness of the Valar:

Then Manwe granted him pardon; but the Valar would not yet suffer him to depart beyond their sight and vigilance, and he was constrained to dwell within the gates of Valmar. But fair-seeming were all the words and deeds of Melkor in that time, and both the Valar and the Eldar had profit from his aid and counsel, if they sought it; and therefore in a while he was given leave to go freely about the land, and it seemed to Manwe that the evil of Melkor was cured. For Manwe was free from evil and could not comprehend it, and he knew that in the beginning, in the thought of Iluvatar, Melkor had been even as he; and he saw not to the depths of Melkor's heart, and did not perceive that all love had departed from him for ever. But Ulmo was not deceived, and Tulkas clenched his hands whenever he saw Melkor his foe go by; for if Tulkas is slow to wrath he is slow also to forget. But they obeyed the judgement of Manwe; for those who will defend authority against rebellion must not themselves rebel.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Frodo Baggins

Well, if Eru is never decieved by intentions behind repentace the Valar certainly were. Maybe I'm wrong but Nienna's pity got in the way of her seeing the truth and Manwe was deluded enough to let Morgoth go the first time.

I'm not sure this is the most understanding way to think of Nienna's pity (or Manwe's delusion).

Consider Gandalf's words to Frodo--and Gandalf spent a great deal of time in Nienna's house--about showing Gollem pity. The worth or value of pity lies in offering hope for change, reformation, salvation. Without pity there is no possibility that those who have fallen by the wayside will ever be shown how to earn a way back. The plot of LotR demonstrates that vengeance lies not with hobbit or man, dwarf or elf, but with the faith which provides for eucatastrophe. Seen in this light, pity is part of the truth.

[Legolas]

The Valar had no choice.

By declaration of Eru, grace has to be given to those who seek it. Formendacil's quote is a good one, but there's a little more behind what Manwe did. Ulmo and Tulkas, despite being rightfully suspicious, would have been wrong had they pushed Manwe towards not excusing Melkor. Even if Manwe wanted to, he could not have refused Melkor's repentance.

Osanwe-kenta:

Melkor had the right to exist, and the right to act and use his powers. Manwe had the authority to rule and to order the world, so far as he could, for the well-being of the Eruhíni; but if Melkor would repent and return to the allegiance of Eru, he must be given his freedom again. He could not be enslaved, or denied his part. The office of the Elder King was to retain all his subjects in the allegiance of Eru, or to bring them back to it, and in that allegiance to leave them free.

The release was according to the promise of Manwe. If Manwe had broken this promise for his own purposes, even though still intending "good", he would have taken a step upon the paths of Melkor. That is a perilous step. In that hour and act he would have ceased to be the vice-gerent of the One, becoming but a king who takes advantage over a rival whom he has conquered by force. Would we then have the sorrows that indeed befell; or would we have the Elder King lose his honour, and so pass, maybe, to a world rent between two proud lords striving for the throne? Of this we may be sure, we children of small strength: any one of the Valar might have taken the paths of Melkor and become like him: one was enough.

Also,

Or does such a thing as work against Ilúvatar even exist, if everything is due to fate and everything is set before it happens?

There is such a thing as working against Eru (though unsuccessful work) as in 'sinning' or acting in a way that would displease him - every being has freewill. I think this is where the confusion lies (as it has been a problem for a long time). Those 'working against Ilúvatar' are only 'attempting to work against Ilúvatar.'

Eru speaks to Melkor on his 'misbehavior' in The Silmarillion:

And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument, in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined.

Do as he may, Melkor cannot prevent good from prevailing. No matter how many things he destroys, no matter how many people he corrupts, he cannot remove the ultimate good present in Ea and everything in it. That is, he can choose his own fate, and influence the fate of others (though it is ultimately their own doing). What he cannot do is 'create' a new 'fate' for himself that goes against Eru's creation, against the music...that is impossible. It's what he set out to do, and obviously failed.

These points aren't really what the initial poster was talking about though.

What happens after death/at the end to those of the children of Ilúvatar who have somehow "worked against him"? [...] And what about Melkor? Will he be punished or wil he have grace?

As for men, we do not know what happens to them after they die and their spirits leave Arda, whether they were good or not. What happens to them at the end of the world is unclear, if anything. Upon death, elves go to Mandos; some (good) are reembodied, others are made to wait in Mandos. Their final judgement will not happen until the end of Ea.

Elves and dwarves will be with the Valar again when the world is remade and 'starts over.' As for Melkor, he has been thrown out into the Void and remains there until the final battle at the end of the world. I would guess that 'evil' children would suffer the same fate as Melkor. Melkor meets his 'final death.'

Unfinished Tales

Manwë will not descend from the Mountain until Dagor Dagorath, and the coming of the End, when Melkor returns.

Morgoth's Ring

Even to the final war against Morgoth it is Fionwë son of Manwë who leads out the power of the Valar. When we move out Manwë it will be the last battle, and the end of the World (or of 'Arda Marred') as the Eldar would say.

(Fionwë, son of Manwë, was later changed to Eönwë, the herald of Manwë)

The Peoples of Middle-Earth

...unless the prophecy of Andreth the Wise-woman should prove true, that Turin in the Last Battle should return from the Dead, and before he left the Circles of the World for ever should challenge the Great Dragon of Morgoth, Ancalagon the Black, and deal him the death-stroke.

The Lost Road

Thus spake Mandos in prophecy, when the Gods sat in judgement in Valinor, and the rumour of his words was whispered among all the Elves of the West. When the world is old and the Powers grow weary, then Morgoth, seeing that the guard sleepeth, shall come back through the Door of Night out of the Timeless Void; and he shall destroy the Sun and Moon. But Earendel shall descend upon him as a white and searing flame and drive him from the airs. Then shall the Last Battle be gathered on the fields of Valinor. In that day Tulkas shall strive with Morgoth, and on his right hand shall be Fionwe, and on his left Turin Turambar, son of Hurin, coming from the halls of Mandos; and the black sword of Turin shall deal unto Morgoth his death and final end; and so shall the children of Hurin and all Men be avenged.
Thereafter shall Earth be broken and re-made, and the Silmarils shall be recovered out of Air and Earth and Sea; for Earendel shall descend and surrender that flame which he hath had in keeping. Then Feanor shall take the Three Jewels and bear them to Yavanna Palurien; and she will break them and with their fire rekindle the Two Trees, and a great light shall come forth. And the Mountains of Valinor shall be levelled, so that the Light shall go out over all the world. In that light the Gods will grow young again, and the Elves awake and all their dead arise, and the purpose of Iluvatar be fulfilled concerning them. But of Men in that day the prophecy of Mandos doth not speak, and no Man it names, save Turin only, and to him a place is given among the sons of the Valar.

(Door of Night = Ando Lomen, the gate in Valinor that opened up the Timeless Void)

After the final battle, the world is destroyed and remade. The music continues, including 'choirs' of the Children. From The Silmarillion:

Never since have the Ainur made any music like to this music, though it has been said that a greater still shall be made before Ilúvatar by the choirs of the Ainur and the Children of Ilúvatar after the end of days. Then the themes of Ilúvatar shall be played aright, and take Being in the moment of their utterance, for all shall then understand fully his intent in their part, and each shall know the comprehension of each, and Ilúvatar shall give to their thoughts the secret fire, being well pleased.

The world will be remade by Aule and the dwarves:

...then their [ed.:dwarves] part shall be to serve Aule and to aid him in the remaking of Arda after the Last Battle.

There are a couple of other versions and comments on the Dagor Dagorath (the prophesied Last Battle), but the account from The Lost Road is the most complete written conception of that battle.

Tolkien was never completely sure of this end. Especially after he decided that Arda eventually became the earth we live on, it was unclear whether or not this last battle would take place...undecided on whether the earth ends peacefully or that this battle will still take place at the end of our time. Turin's part in the final battle, an early idea, definitely appears to have been omitted in later ideas on what would happen. (Mithadan talks about the different standpoints on what could've become of the final battle in Tolkien's mind here.)

[Thinlómien]

I had that kind of impression, that when Melkor was sent into the oblivion, it wasn't still the final judgement...

Btw, you're having interesting points.

[mark12_30]

Aye, many interesting points indeed. Legolas, that was a wealth of... er... well, wealth.

Especially this:

If Manwe had broken this promise for his own purposes, even though still intending "good", he would have taken a step upon the paths of Melkor. That is a perilous step. In that hour and act he would have ceased to be the vice-gerent of the One, becoming but a king who takes advantage over a rival whom he has conquered by force.

This principle struck me as also being the reason that (Movie) Elrond didn't shove Isildur into Orodruin when he had the chance. (I still wish he had *stolen* the Ring from Isildur and then tossed it in... somehow that doesn't fall into the same category, and would be a whole 'nother discussion.) But to simply shove Isildur in would have been Sauronish (or Melkorish).

Back to the regular topic...