Elendil's Sword and Sauron's Ring

Does anybody have any information on who forged the Sword of Elendil, and how Isildur was able to land a piercing blow to Sauron with it, thereby defeating him AND the power of the One Ring? Is this Sword enchanted with special spells also, or CAN Sauron be pierced with a normal sword, however mighty?

I can't seem to work it out myself, but then again my Knowledge of ME extends only mainly to LOTR!

It's interesting how on the one hand Gandalf said in the Two Towers than Aragorn's sword could not harm him, yet this same weapon was capable of breaking the power of Sauron!

[Encaitare]

The sword was forged by the dwarf Telchar of Nogrod. He also made Angrist, the knife strong enough to cut a Silmaril from Morgoth's crown, so he was very good at his job! Narsil was probably stronger than the average sword, but I suppose Sauron was not entirely immune to being wounded anyway.

Originally Posted by Encaitare

Narsil was probably stronger than the average sword, but I suppose Sauron was not entirely immune to being wounded anyway.

So it is likely that the One Ring gave Sauron greater strength but not invulnerability perhaps. What about the WK - could Narsil break his immunity spell? There is no record that I know of as to whether Narsil was magical (i.e. it was not an elven blade). So how can this sword harm Sauron, but most probably not the WK or Gandalf?

[narfforc]

Maybe this will help. Narsil is named after The Sun (Anar) and the Moon (Isil), for it was said to have shone with the light of those heavenly bodies. The powers of Darkness feared those lights and hated them. So in some way it may have had an effect on the bad guys.

Narsil was the sword of King Elendil of the Dúnedain. It was later known as Andúril. The sword was forged during the First Age by the Dwarf Telchar of Nogrod, making it a cousin to the blade Angrist, which cut a Silmaril from the crown of Morgoth. The name contains the elements nar "fire" and thil "white light", referring to the Sun and Moon. The blade presumably was given to one of the Sons of Fëanor, possibly Curufin, to whom Angrist was given. It eventually came to Maglor, who would have given it to Elros.
.

I suppose you were referring to the above, although it seems Angrist cut a Silmaril from the crown of Morgoth.

[Boromir88]

It's interesting how on the one hand Gandalf said in the Two Towers than Aragorn's sword could not harm him, yet this same weapon was capable of breaking the power of Sauron!

Mansun, that's most likely because Sauron was already overthrown and defeated when Isildur used Narsil to cut the ring from his finger.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Nar, Sauron assumed a form that could be harmed. He wasn't invulnerable; merely very powerful. How else could Elendil and Gil-Galad have killed him?

The Witch-King was an entirely different kettle of fish.

Gandalf's line about no weapons that could hurt him is a headscratcher and no doubt. Maybe all he meant was 'Try and hurt me 'Gorn, you've no chance!' As in, a boast.

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Mansun, that's most likely because Sauron was already overthrown and defeated when Isildur used Narsil to cut the ring from his finger.

I'm not sure about that - there is no direct evidence. Mordor was overthrown, but not Sauron, as he still had the Ring on and so was still in power. The most logical answer was that Sauron was still barely vulnerable even with the Ring, and Isildur hit a lucky blow with Narsil probably which caught Sauron by suprise, knocking the Ring off (and then the finger) away from the Darklord.

Just for the record, nobody 'killed' Sauron, they only temporarily destoyed him in the physical form. And if the WK or Gandalf were struck with Narsil, who can say that anything would have happened?

[Boromir88]

I can't find the exact quotes but it sounds like you know the ones I'm talking about. Where it states Elendil and Gil-galad overthrew Sauron. That has always been debated as whether meaning Sauron or "Sauron's forces" were overthrown. But if you think about Gollum's quote where he says he has 4 fingers on a black hand then it surely points that after Gil-galad and Elendil had overthrown him Isildur came up and cut off the ring. Not by a lucky blow, or a slice that Jackson shows or Sauron would have lost more fingers instead of just one.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Sauron was overthrown because he was dead.

Not 'dead' as in 'never to return to the world'; but 'dead' as in 'lying motionless in a crumpled heap on the floor'.

Originally Posted by Eomer of the Rohirrim

Sauron was overthrown because he was dead.

Not 'dead' as in 'never to return to the world'; but 'dead' as in 'lying motionless in a crumpled heap on the floor'.

Where is the evidence for this? Was there anybody capable of defeating Sauron to cause him to ''die''? You could just as easily say that he was caught by a lucky blow, as shown in the film, as this seems more realistic. What's more, I think Sauron slew the mighty Elendil, so how could have anybody else done the same to Sauron?

By curiosity, where were the Nazgul just before Sauron fell? Were they not meant to be defending their master until the bitter end?

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

I've been looking through some threads and consensus seems to be that 'we cannot know for sure'. Tolkien didn't give a detailed analysis of the Battle so we are left speculating. I guess you could argue for both ideas: Isildur either cut off the finger after Sauron had perished or as he was injured and fallen.

But to answer the original question, you could definitely stick a sword through him! Whether you were powerful or brave enough is another matter entirely.

[Firefoot]

From "The Council of Elrond":

"I was at the Battle of Dagorlad before the Black Gate of Mordor, wehere we had the mastery: for the spear of Gil-galad and the Sword fo Elendil, Aiglos and Narsil, none could withstand. I beheld the last combat on the slopes of Orodruin, where Gil-galad died, and Elendil fell, and Narsil broke beneath him; but Sauron himself was overthrown, and Isildur cut the Ring from his hand with the hilt-shard of his father's sword, and took it for his own." -Elrond

Sauron killed Elendil and Gil-galad, but at the same time they overthrew Sauron - "killing" him, per se. So Sauron was already overthrown by the time Isildur cut off ring and finger.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

What would Elrond know....

Seriously though, that's what seems righteous to me Firefoot, but the way it's written in Of the Rings of Power in The Silmarillion might make it seem that it was the severing of the finger which killed.

Isildur took the Ring, and then Sauron was vanquished.

As much as I'd love a detailed call of the 'match' it's probably not going to happen now. Barring any time-travel.

[drigel]

I agree Eomer - it is muddled as to what actually happened. It seemed (to me)the ultimate contest took place without their weapons. The appendixes left me the impression for the longest time that it was a wrestling match. ".....Sauron was thrown down..", and ".....his body was burned by the heat (of Sauron).."

Nothing left to do after your spear and sword break I suppose. Elendil and Gil-Galad looking at each other: "OK - you take him high and I take him low.."

Cowboy up and throw down in the dust of Gorgoroth

[Formendacil]

Here's my take...

Sauron was still somewhat "weak" from getting drowned in Numenor. Not drowned as in "dead", but drowned in that he needed to recreate a totally new body- which we are told (I seem to recall) is a rather draining experience. It's only about a hundred years later, a blink of an eye for a Maia, and so Sauron is still not at his full power.

Neither is his army, which is why Gil-galad and Elendil are able to smash through with the Last Alliance, and make it right up to him, face-to-face, and take him on. Still not at his full power, and vulnerable to weapons in his physical form (think Glorfindel and the Balrog), Sauron is stabbed/sliced by the two High Kings, thereby killing his weaker physical body. This initiates a shutdown as his body "explodes", which kills Elendil and Gil-galad in the process (doesn't it say that Gil-galad was killed by the heat of Sauron's hand somewhere...). Elendil falls down on Narsil, breaking it.

So Elendil is dead, Gil-galad is dead, and Sauron's body is vanquished, leaving him extremely vulnerable. It is at this time that Isildur comes up. He sees his father dead, and the hot, dead body of Sauron. He takes the hilt-shard of Narsil, and cuts off Sauron's ringfinger as a sign of victory, and takes the Ring for himself. Then Elrond and Cirdan show up and try to talk him into throwing it away, etc, etc.

Now, this is just my understanding/theory as to how it all happened. I may as well toss it out, and see what happens.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

I've seen numerous references to the slaying of Gil-Galad being due to the heat of Sauron's hand. Could anyone tell us where that's from?

(If it's from the Sil and I've missed it I'll just die of embarrassment.. . )

[Lalwendë]

Maybe when Gandalf warns Aragorn that he cannot harm Sauron through his swordsmanship he is saying more to him than simply telling him it is not advisable. Aragorn is possibly very aware of his own fighting abilities, while Gandalf is keenly aware that Sauron is a very different foe to another Man or an Orc; he is warning Aragorn that sheer swordsmanship is not enough to rid Middle earth of this particular foe, certainly this time around. I would imagine that even if someone were able to get close enough to Sauron to even try to put a blade through him, it might be rather like trying to cut fire.

In addition, it might be that as Narsil was broken, when it was reforged as Anduril it effectively became a different weapon? If it was 'wound about with spells' like the Barrow-blades, would those spells also have been broken when it fell beneath Elendil? To me, it seems that Isildur used Narsil on Sauron after his body had fallen, and that his act was not the act which destroyed Sauron's physical form.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Well, if swords can't get the job done then, presumably, neither would fisticuffs.

But if you're suggesting that to fight Sauron physically includes a great mental struggle as well, and that this is where the important battle lies, then I might like where you're coming from.

[Lalwendë]

Well, I think Gandalf was underlining just how important it was to destroy the Ring. Especially at the Council of Elrond, every option is examined and pulled to pieces until the only one left is that someone destroys the Ring at Mount Doom.

Sauron would be impossible to get close to physically, certainly for a Man (though I wonder if Frodo and Sam might have managed it?) and he would have been canny enough not to emerge onto the battlefield after his experience at the end of the Second Age. He had minions to do his dirty work, like all good Dark Lords. The only option apart from destroying the Ring would have been to struggle mentally with him, and that would have been incredibly risky; as shown he managed to destroy the minds of both Saruman and Denethor.

I guess its open to opinion as to what happened, but my belief is that Sauron, with the Ring, would have been too strong to be defeated by anybody in single combat, or even if Gil-Galad and Elendil teamed up against him. That said, such a battle would definately have weakened him physically, hence Isildur makes the most of this opportunity and lands a blow to cut the Ring finger off and vanquishhim. As for Sauron just lying on the floor dead, I can't picture that at all, at least not when he still had the Ring.

[Osse]

When considering this, we must remember that when in physical form, both Valar and Maiar can be harmed - once in a physical form, they are almost restricted to the powers of that form. I included Valar above, though it's not really a good example due to the conditions, because of Morgoth, and his epic battle with Fingolfin. In this battle, Fingolfin is able to severely wound the Dark Lord, even if it only on his legs. Another instance of an Ainur being injured in physical form is when Sauron, in wolf form battles with Huan outside his citadel - Sauron is heavily injured and almost killed in the contest - but only in body.

What you must remember is most of Sauron's original power was in the Ring... if it was on his hand, he had the full use of his power - now if the Ring is no longer on his finger, then he no longer has use of his power - this great blow would have limited his abilities ie. to take physical form

It is for these reasons that I think the version portrayed in the films is correct, or at least makes the most sense.


With the Ring on, Sauron has power - if it's removed suddenly, he doesn't. So, though his body could be injured, he'd still be powerful... so really the cutting off of the finger whilst the Ring is on would be the only way to sever his power. Gil-Galad and Elendil, despite being lordly and deft could not have stood up to Sauron in all his strength - Isildur got really, really lucky and hit a finger... the finger with the Ring on it.

Originally Posted by Firefoot

From "The Council of Elrond": Sauron killed Elendil and Gil-galad, but at the same time they overthrew Sauron - "killing" him, per se. So Sauron was already overthrown by the time Isildur cut off ring and finger.

Firefoot, that depends on your interpretation of whether Sauron was killed, or that Mordor, and hence the Dark Lord, was just defeated (overthrown). We don't have enough to go on to be sure. Sauron was probably subjected to being attacked by lord after lord, slaying them all but sustaining injury, until he at last became physically weaker, and then finally caved in to Isildur, who accurately landed a blow to remove the large finger (assuming that Sauron was a good deal bigger than a normal man).

That said, how did the likes of Elendil even have the courage to confront him? If Sauron landed a mighty blow to them, they would be sent yards into the air!Mentally he would be too much I would have thought, hence a lucky blow by Isildur might come into the equation.

However, as Tolkein put it, Isildur took the Ring from Sauron as though he himself had not been involved in a titanic battle with the Dark Lord. So its might appear that Sauron could well have been on the verge of dying or already dead just before the Ring was taken, although for me that seems very hard to imagine whilst he still had the Ring.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Did Sauron increase his power by making the Ring? It was a ploy to ensnare the other races and it didn't quite work. So Sauron with Ring was no more powerful than he would have been if he had never made the Ring. A powerful Maia. And like Osse says, Melkor - a being far more powerful than Sauron - was given a very decent fight by Fingolfin, an Elf.

So why couldn't Sauron, and his physical body, be subject to a mauling by Gil-Galad and Elendil, a powerful Elf and a powerful Man, even with the Ring of Power? It doesn't seem too far-fetched.

Originally Posted by Eomer of the Rohirrim

Did Sauron increase his power by making the Ring? It was a ploy to ensnare the other races and it didn't quite work. So Sauron with Ring was no more powerful than he would have been if he had never made the Ring. A powerful Maia. And like Osse says, Melkor - a being far more powerful than Sauron - was given a very decent fight by Fingolfin, an Elf.

So why couldn't Sauron, and his physical body, be subject to a mauling by Gil-Galad and Elendil, a powerful Elf and a powerful Man, even with the Ring of Power? It doesn't seem too far-fetched.

What did the former have in them that the likes of Aragorn and Gandalf did not in the war against Sauron, who could not face him even without the Ring?

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Gil-Galad and Elendil were much mightier than 'Gorn, and Gandalf was restricted in his power, and was not allowed to fight Sauron anyway.

What about Glorfindel? Gandalf gave the impression that even the elf-lord did not have it in him to face all the Nine Nazgul at a time, nor be able to storm the Dark Tower (i.e. take on Sauron). Both Gandalf and Elrond admitted that there was nobody on ME that could challenge Sauron if he was to come at the end.

The point I was making was the fact that even great lords of the past such as Glorfindel were not capable of giving Sauron real trouble in a battle, so the likes of Gil-Galad and Elendil would find it incredibly difficult to do so.

[drigel]

Lots of good posts here on a stimulating subject. A pity there was no prose laid down by the bards for this critical and heroic fight. Here be my 2 cents - hack away if you desire.

Gandalf gave the impression that even the elf-lord did not have it in him to face all the Nine Nazgul at a time, nor be able to storm the Dark Tower (i.e. take on Sauron).

My IE would conclude that Glor could not storm the Dark Tower (legions of orcs/trolls, arrows, catapults, big rocks et al), the referenced passage says nothing to me about a one on one with S.

Both Gandalf and Elrond admitted that there was nobody on ME that could challenge Sauron if he was to come at the end.

Well, Olorin sayed he feared Sauron before he was sent over the pond, but perhaps Manwe had stats that said otherwise, regardless of the intended mission for Olorin. Fear would be a factor, but who knows, given some kind of hypothetical level playing field...?

So why couldn't Sauron, and his physical body, be subject to a mauling by Gil-Galad and Elendil, a powerful Elf and a powerful Man, even with the Ring of Power? It doesn't seem too far-fetched.

Agreement, considering Sauron's state (post Numenor) at the time.

Like Firefoot's inference, nothing black and white can be drawn straight from the Council of Elrond. My take from the body of work still isnt congruent with the movies. My conlcusion is still thus:

Nothing I remember accounts for any damage from either Aiglos or Narsil (or any weapon Sauron had or had not). I infer that either minor wounding or nothing at all occured before the weapons broke asunder (before or after the deaths of their owners).

I may be all alone here, but I recall nothing as to the exact surface temperature of Sauron. Deadly hot yes, but not instant evaporation if they layed hands on him. The few precious minutes that a valourious High Elf and King of men had, could -and would have been enough to do a choke hold, break a neck, fracture bones, crush vertebre etc etc a 'la Greco/Roman style. Even more valorious if they knew that their laying hands on Sauron would mean the end of their lives. Not pretty, but ultimately the highest order of physical contests between combatants, IMO. No aids or handicaps. Just struggle. Yea sure, its all very ugh-ugh caveman (Conan of Cimmeria anyone?). But what could be more heroic?
Possibly Gil-Galad's pretty shield upside the head could cause a concusion or contusion... hmm

Finally the Ring. I still conclude that this was cut off the hand after the struggle. At the very least the work never referenced the Ring as being the lynchpin of the fight (off comes the ring and *poof* S dies and, oh yea btw, E and GG die too).

[Gorthaur the Cruel]

Narsil was a very powerful sword but Anduril (the new version) became much more potent especially when Aragorn received a gift from Galadriel, a scabbard which makes the sword unbreakable even in defeat.

[narfforc]

Luthien defeated Sauron without any sword.

"His name is Melkor, Lord of All, Giver of Freedeom, and he shall make you stronger than they." - Sauron to Ar-Pharazôn

Where did this qoute come from?

[narfforc]

The Akallabeth, The Downfall of Numenor.

[Firefoot]

Originally Posted by Eomer of the Rohirrim

I've seen numerous references to the slaying of Gil-Galad being due to the heat of Sauron's hand. Could anyone tell us where that's from?

(If it's from the Sil and I've missed it I'll just die of embarrassment.. . )

I just stumbled upon the answer to your question by accident. It's in LotR, during the Council of Elrond, in Isildur's scroll:

"The Ring misseth, maybe, the heat of Sauron's hand, which was black and yet burned like fire, and so Gil-galad was destroyed;"

It's just slipped in there - no wonder I haven't seen it before.

And I understand now how you can read the passages in the CoE and the Sil otherwise... I was in a hurry when I wrote my last post. I still think that's how it happened though.

Luthien defeated Sauron without any sword.

Luthien was also half-Maia and lived in the Elder Days. She also had certain aids: her cloak of drowsiness, and Huan's help - Huan was probably more helpful than a sword could have been.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

*sheepish look*

Thanks for that Firefoot. Right in front of me...

[Elladan and Elrohir]

As for the Gandalf "no weapon any of you have can hurt me" quote, which was mentioned earlier in the thread: I think he can truthfully say that because of his enhanced power that was granted to him for his return. Apparently, he becomes invincible to weaponry.

Also, to answer another point mentioned earlier, I regret I don't know which one, but Tolkien did write in one of his Letters, "While he [Sauron] wore it [The Ring], his power was actually enhanced..."

And finally to discuss the main point of this topic:

I had always assumed that Sauron was essentially killed by Elendil and Gil-galad as he did the same to them. I still do, though my belief in that isn't as strong as it was. The word "overthrown" appears to be operative ("They overthrew Sauron, though they themselves perished in the doing"), and I take it to mean that they literally overthrew him. Whether they "killed" him or not, he was knocked over and at least temporarily immobilized. It was then that Isildur cut the Ring off his finger.

I don't see how Tolkien could call Sauron "overthrown" if he was still swinging his mace (or whatever) around and killing people left and right, as the movie depicts. I think he was literally overthrown.

My $0.02.

Originally Posted by Mansun

By curiosity, where were the Nazgul just before Sauron fell? Were they not meant to be defending their master until the bitter end?

Did anybody find this out?

[Gil-Galad]

The Nazgul were probably busy fighting the rest of the army, remember, Sauron came out to fight after about a month of the siege of Barad-Dur, the Nazgul could have been defeated during the battle of Dagorlad as well.

Keep in mind, after Narsil was shattered, it was reforged into Anduril by Elvish smiths, so it had Dwarvish and Elvish smithing techniques, which may have made the blade weaker due to illregualrity in the techniques.