The Treason of Isengard: Eru's Plan?

[burrahobbit]

Where did you get the idea that Men alter the Music?

[davem]

Originally Posted by burrahobbit

Where did you get the idea that Men alter the Music?

:
Therefore he willed that the hearts of Men should seek beyond the world and should find no rest therein; but they should have a virtue to shape their life, amid the powers and chances of the world, beyond the Music of the Ainur, which is as fate to all things else; and of their operation everything should be, in form and deed, completed, and the world fulfilled unto the last and smallest.(Ainulindale)

:
But Illuvatar knew that Men, being set amid the turmoils of the powers of the world, would stray often, and would not use their gifts in harmony; and ie said, These too in their time shall find that all that they do redounds at the end only to the glory of my work.' Yet the Elves believe that Men are often a grief to Manwe, who knows most of the mind of Illuvatar; for it seems to the Elves that Men resemble Melkor most of all the Ainur, although he has ever feared and hated them, even those that served him.
It is one with this gift of freedom that the children of Men dwell only a short space in the world alive, and are not bound to it, and depart soon whither the Elves know not. (Of the Beginning of Days)

Quod erat demonstrandum?

[burrahobbit]

So, bearing those quotes in mind, where did you get the idea that Men alter the Music? And what exactly does that have to do with Saruman?

[davem]

Originally Posted by burrahobbit

So, bearing those quotes in mind, where did you get the idea that Men alter the Music?

If the Music was fixed before the creation of Arda & could not be changed, why create it at all? If there is no freedom to alter the Music the whole thing becomes a pointless exercise. The Music is actually a 'living' process - it changes, alters, as it must because otherwise Arda has no purpose, everyone in it is a robot, & so no-one can be held accountable, because no-one is free to act. Men's freedom actually liberates all the races to an extent, by changing the Music & so changing the fate of all the others.

Or, in short, why else would Tolkien mention Men's freedom to alter the Music if it never happened? Man's free will was central to Tolkien's thinking, both as a writer & as a man - its a central tenet of his faith. Men & Elves were not part of the Music - they sprang from the mind of Illuvatar alone, & so must have had some purpose which was not included in the Music as originally sung. The Elves were made to live 'eternally' within Arda & so were bound to its fate, Men were not so bound & that's why they die - because in them fea & hroa are not one - ie death is one with the gift of mortality - the one is a corollary of the other.

Given the statements I quoted, what makes you think they didn't alter the Music?

Or if you're simply asking where I got the idea from - it was from reading Flieger's Splintered Light, wherein she discusses this idea in depth...

What it has to do with Saruman is that Saruman, being a Maiar, had no option but to play the part assigned to him by 'fate' (ie the Music), but he had the freedom to choose how he would do the things he had to do. But the Music was changed by Men's freedom of choice & action - for instance by the choice of Isildur to take rather than destroy the Ring.....

[burrahobbit]

why else would Tolkien mention Men's freedom to alter the Music if it never happened?

I'm pretty sure he didn't actually ever do that.

Given the statements I quoted, what makes you think they didn't alter the Music?

Because they don't have anything to do with that? There is some amount of difference between living beyond somthing and changing it to suit your needs. How exactly does a person go about changing a performance that he wasn't at? Even if he was at it, how exactly would he change the performances of all of the other people playing for themselves? The first question is more important, think about it more.

[davem]

Originally Posted by burrahobbit

I'm pretty sure he didn't actually ever do that.



Because they don't have anything to do with that? There is some amount of difference between living beyond somthing and changing it to suit your needs. How exactly does a person go about changing a performance that he wasn't at? Even if he was at it, how exactly would he change the performances of all of the other people playing for themselves? The first question is more important, think about it more.

They don't change it 'to suit their needs' in the sense you imply - they just do what they do & because they aren't bound by it they change it. The performances of all the others are affected because of the unexpected changes introduced by Men.

You seem to be implying that Arda is 'nothing but' the Music made manifest - I don't read it that way. Again I ask, why bother creating the world at all if its to be nothing but a literal manifestation of what was already set out?

[burrahobbit]

You seem to be implying that Arda is 'nothing but' the Music made manifest - I don't read it that way.

'Behold your Music!' And he showed to them a vision, giving to them sight where before was only hearing; arid they saw a new World made visible before them, and it was globed amid the Void, and it was sustained therein, but was not of it. And as they looked and wondered this World began to unfold its history, and it seemed to them that it lived and grew. And when the Ainur had gazed for a while and were silent, Ilúvatar said again: 'Behold your Music! This is your minstrelsy; and each of you shall find contained herein, amid the design that I set before you, all those things which it may seem that he himself devised or added. And thou, Melkor, wilt discover all the secret thoughts of thy mind, and wilt perceive that they are but a part of the whole and tributary to its glory.'

Again I ask, why bother creating the world at all if its to be nothing but a literal manifestation of what was already set out?

I don't know, why?

I get to ask a question again too. How exactly does a person change the performance of a song if he wasn't in the room with the other people playing? How can I change what an orchestra does in New York if I live in Oklahoma? Even more, how would I change that orchestra in New York if it happened 50 years before I was born?

[davem]

Originally Posted by burrahobbit

I get to ask a question again too. How exactly does a person change the performance of a song if he wasn't in the room with the other people playing? How can I change what an orchestra does in New York if I live in Oklahoma? Even more, how would I change that orchestra in New York if it happened 50 years before I was born?

A live performance can be changed by one of the participants. Think Jazz. The Music was the 'composition', the creation/manifestation of Arda is the performance of that composition. Not all the performers may have been around when the piece was composed, but as long as they are around when it is being played they can alter it - especially if they have the express permission of the composer/conductor to do that very thing.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Originally Posted by davem

A live performance can be changed by one of the participants. Think Jazz. The Music was the 'composition', the creation/manifestation of Arda is the performance of that composition. Not all the performers may have been around when the piece was composed, but as long as they are around when it is being played they can alter it - especially if they have the express permission of the composer/conductor to do that very thing.

A very apt analogy, davem! As a musician, I know there are a number of ways a performer can make a composition his very own, unique piece: by the interpretation, even within the given boundaries of tempo, volume, accents etc. given by the composer, as those elements are normally variables, rarely absolutes, thus subject to individual differences; by addition, putting in grace notes, double octaves, additional chord notes, etc., which do not change the character of the basic music but do add richness and interest; and by improvisation - both 'classical' composers and modern ones, such as in jazz, as davem has mentioned, specifically allow and/or require a performer to change the melody, even making up his own, in parts of a previously written composition. There is also the possibility of making a secondary composition of a previous piece of music, which would be an arrangement or variations, which would again be subject to varying interpretations.

Enough music theory, although I think it's appropriate and helpful to apply these principles to Tolkien's idea of the music of creation. Perhaps we could see various peoples of Middle-earth as performers of various styles. The Elves would be the musicians who attempt to find out what the original instrumentation was, to play on authentic historical instruments, using the precise tempo as far as can be determined. Men would be the improvisers and arrangers, having heard the original melodies but adding and changing them in a way to suit themselves - and the taste of their times, perhaps, as modern musicians might do.

Where would that put Saruman then? Was he trying to rearrange the music to fit his own taste and desires? Did he perhaps think that he could change it all the way through to the very end? (Sauron would have thought similarly.) And yet he managed only a brief stanza, that peters out and gives way to the main theme again after all.

I don't know why I haven't thought of applying the principles of music theory to this topic before - it's a logical application! There's food for thought here, and I may come back with more later.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Esty

Where would that put Saruman then? Was he trying to rearrange the music to fit his own taste and desires? Did he perhaps think that he could change it all the way through to the very end? (Sauron would have thought similarly.) And yet he managed only a brief stanza, that peters out and gives way to the main theme again after all.

This is the one of the most interesting questions, because according to Ainulindale, not being a Man, he couldn't change the Music ('which is as fate to all things else'). It would seem that Saruman's fall stems from his apparent conviction that he could change the Music in Eru's despite. He couldn't - not because Eru wouldn't let him, but because only Men have that power - one with their gift of mortality. Clearly he could have repented & accepted his part in the Music, ie his fate, but what he could not do was change his fate. Why did he think he could? As one of the Ainur he would actually have heard Eru tell Melkor in no uncertain terms that None may change the Music in His despite. He would also have known that only Mortal Men ('doomed to die') were not bound by the Music & only they had the freedom to act beyond the restrictions imposed on all others by it.

Obviously, he could concieve of himself changing the Music - he had freedom of thought - but he also knew the Rules - that he couldn't actually act outside the Music. Was it simple jealousy of Men? I wonder about the Istari's mission - they came to help in the fight against Sauron, but they were restricted by the Music, which bound them & limited their freedom of action.

The whole problem is that Tolkien has made those statements about Men's unique freedom within Middle -earth. If he hadn't it would make everything so simple - 'all are fated to act out the Music, no-one has free will. It was all pre-ordained. But he didn't - into this world of absolute predestination he introduces Men & their 'gift' of mortality/freedom of action (under Eru). Yet, he states unequivocally that all but Men are bound by the Music, & cannot act beyond it. Yet, if Men can change the Music (Eru willing, of course) then this 'pre-destination' which controls & determines the fate of Valar, Maiar & Elves, can change. Thus, we have the apparently crazy situation of Valar, Maiar & Elves having an inescapable destiny to do 'X' until[ the moment that Men act beyond the Music, alter it, & thus change the 'inescapable' destiny of Valar, Maiar & Elves

So, I hear some ask, why not just take the simplest option - there is no free will for anyone in M-e? They're all just 'robots' walking along pre-destined paths - men as well as all the other races. Because Tolkien has made it clear that Men may act beyond the Music, & we can't ignore that. Besides, it would remove any meaning in the tales. Frodo was just a robot. There's no point asking why he took the Ring, & why in the end he couldn't cast it into the fire - he was just a robot acting out his programming. None of the courageous, self sacrificing, acts in the tales have any value because the people who did them were just robots who couldn't do anything else.

The other alternative is that alll the races had freedom of action - not just Men. Problem there is that it makes the whole of the Ainulindale pointless. My take on it is that the freedom of Men to act beyond the Music is a consequence of their mortality - in that because their spirits are not permanently bound to the stuff of Arda like the Elves, or by solemnly binding agreement never to leave it till the Music they sang is played out (the Valar). It is the stuff of Arda - matter/hroa - which is bound by the Music. The minds/spirits of beings are not, so freedom of thought is possible for all beings, but freedom of action is curtailed in Valar, Maiar & Elves because they are bound within the Circles of the World. It is the different relationship of fea to hroa in Men which enables their freedom to act beyond the Music, & to alter it (though not in Eru's despite.

[burrahobbit]

My point has been missed again. You can add to and change the performance if you are actually present at it, but let's keep in mind here that this isn't just The Music, and it isn't The Music of Men or The Music of Elves, it is the Music of the Ainur: The Ainulindale. The Children of Iluvatar, being born after the creation of the world, were not present at its creation. Whatever actions Men may take are outside of the bounds of the Music, but they do not change the Music. The position of Men may be unique, but they are not so potent as to change the very fabric of the work of the gods.

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

But Eru changed the Music with his new theme. Could it be that this new theme "inserts" the changes in the Music of the Ainur he intended for Men to do?

Of course, this silly post introduces the battle of prescience and predestination.

[burrahobbit]

Could it be that this new theme "inserts" the changes in the Music of the Ainur he intended for Men to do?

Possibly. I doubt it gets into specifics though, as that would go counter to the whole freedom thing that Tolkien talked about. It might be "Men will be important for this andthis reason" but it is impossible to say really.

[HerenIstarion]

Originally Posted by burrahobbit

My point has been missed again

Mine as well (see post 25)

You seem to be on two extreme ends of the rope I try to hop over in the middle of

Performance analogy may be bended just enough to suit my needs, though

Indeed, going beyond something does not imply that something is changed at all.

If you look at men and elves as audience in the concert hall, than elves would be spectators who have no other choice but to sit the concert out to the end, while men may walk out of it any time the wish. Or, even, are given chance to listen to one part only and than are quickly tossed out of the hall. While seated, each spectator is free to merely listen, or to sing along or to whistle out his/her dissapproval. If elves walk out of the hall, they find that they are not allowed to walk to the actual street, but have some time on their own in the vestibule and are requested to go back in after a while (unless they were tossing eggs at the stage. Than they sit it out in the vestibule till the final curtain)

But in order for the analogy not to be lopsided as it is, let us add that by the end of the performance the audience is requested to ascend the stage and join in the chorus. And while elves sit in there waiting for the final curtain to go down, not even sure that after the last chord of the concert master of ceremonies will ask them to ascend at all, the men, once tossed out, find to their surprise that, though they left the concert hall, they are lead round by back streets to enter it from the backside and be arranged in the backstage in order to strike a chord once requested, though audience in the hall does not see them yet behind the backs of the main performers. And, for the 'shaping', they also find that though they are invited, they are free to refuse and not go round backstreets, but go and have a milkshake in the nearest McDonalds instead.

Elven freedom in the case is ascend/not ascend, and while actual concert is still on, listen/block one's ears in the corner of the hall and whistle out loud

Some of the former performers are there in the hall too (Istari - human forms). Saruman is free to whistle and throw rotten eggs at the stage, but is equally free to abstain from activity as described, and is urged towards option two by Gandalf, who actually is singing along, not merely listening

[burrahobbit]

Heren-Istarion wins. Discussion is over.

[davem]

Originally Posted by burrahobbit

My point has been missed again. You can add to and change the performance if you are actually present at it, but let's keep in mind here that this isn't just The Music, and it isn't The Music of Men or The Music of Elves, it is the Music of the Ainur: The Ainulindale. The Children of Iluvatar, being born after the creation of the world, were not present at its creation. Whatever actions Men may take are outside of the bounds of the Music, but they do not change the Music. The position of Men may be unique, but they are not so potent as to change the very fabric of the work of the gods.

And the Numenorean's assault on Valinor? Was that event, & the changing of the shape of the World which followed it - a direct result of Eru's intervention - predicted in the Music or not? If it was then how could the Numenoreans be held morally accountable for their actions? If it wasn't & was a result of their freedom to act beyond the Music then it shows that Men can change the Music, even to the extent of changing the world itself...

[Son of Númenor]

The root of this debate is semantics. Davem, change the word 'Music' to 'Eä' and your argument holds up. It is illogical to suggest that because the Numenorean invasion of Valinor was not predicted in the Music the act somehow altered the composition of the Music. Once the Music was laid down in Eru's halls it ceased to be changeable, in the same way that fans cannot go back and edit a live concert from three days ago. You are looking at the Music as a fluid piece that interacts with the physical manifestation of itself; burra is rightly looking at it as an event which took place before Eä was created.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Son of Númenor

The root of this debate is semantics. Davem, change the word 'Music' to 'Eä' and your argument holds up. It is illogical to suggest that because the Numenorean invasion of Valinor was not predicted in the Music the act somehow altered the composition of the Music. Once the Music was laid down in Eru's halls it ceased to be changeable, in the same way that fans cannot go back and edit a live concert from three days ago. You are looking at the Music as a fluid piece that interacts with the physical manifestation of itself; burra is rightly looking at it as an event which took place before Eä was created.

Where is the textual evidence for the Music being unchangeable? Eru says none may alter the Music in His despite, not that it is unchangeable at all. I have to ask again, what's the point in creating the world if it is only to be a manifestation of the Music? Is Frodo merely a robot obeying a program?

All Tolkien's great heroes, the ones he focusses on, are Men or half Men. Hurin, Huor, Turin, Tuor, Aragorn, Frodo, etc or, the classic example to my mind - Earendel. Earendel succeeds in finding his way to the West because he is half mortal & therefore not completely under the ban of the Valar. Men save the world because they can act beyond the Music 'which is as fate to all things else.

Let's not forget that Men are not sung into being by the Ainur - they are Eru's unique creation & have a special destiny both within & beyond Arda. It seems to me that H-i's understanding of Eru's 'gift' to Men is the ability to 'drop dead' - if that was the case one could understand Andreth's anger. But it isn't. Men's destiny is to be the saviours of Arda, the key figures in the defeat of evil, & this is due only to the fact that they can act within the world beyond the confines set by the Music - Eru permitting.

I'm not saying that the destruction of Numenor & the subsequent change of the world altered the composition of the Music, but that it changed what was played. Music was the initial plan but the plan could be altered.

So, perhaps a 'poll'?

Who believes that all the inhabitants of Arda are robots with no control over what they do? I can't see that Tolkien did, otherwise he would not have introduced Men with their unique gift to act beyond the Music which is as fate to all things else. The very fact that they can act beyond the Music means that the Music is not all controlling fate to all the beings of Arda.

Textual evidence that proves beyond all doubt that everything is pre-determined by the Music, please?

I can see the argument that it is all 'semantics' - the 'Music' is what was sung by the Ainur & only that. Once it is made manifest & freedom of action (for Men at least) is introduced, we are no longer dealing with the Music. The Music is the blueprint or archetype which is the starting point. Except that the Music was never finished before it was made 'flesh' as Ea. It is equally possible to see Ea as the Music's continuing composition within the field of time & space. Thus, not everything which was 'speculated' in the Music would come to pass - some of the things which were (& which were part of the Music) would not come to fruition because of the changes introduced by Men - hence, the Music would be 'altered' even in its playing. Remember, the Ainulindale occured outside Time & we have no clear conception of how Time & Eternity relate in Tolkien's cosmology. What we are told is that at the 'End' the Music will be played 'aright' - implying it is an ongoing process, rather than a one-off event. The Ainulindale was a failed attempt to 'play' the Music, so was Ea - The True Music has not been played yet.

From this point of view I think its valid to say that there is an 'Ideal' Music which both Ainulindale & Ea are attempts to play, but neither of them are the Music in Eru's Mind. The Ainulindale may be changed - retrospectively - because the two events Ainulindale & Ea are attempts to produce something else - The Music in Eru's Mind. Events in 'Time' may 'echo' in Eternity & Eternity may be thereby 'altered'. Both playings are 'practice sessions'. I'm not sure 'before' & 'after' (in the sense of Ainulindale>Ea) is the right way to concieve of it. What Eru shows to the Ainur is not what the Valar find when they enter Ea, & their task is to manifest it as far as they can, to make the abstract concrete.

What is 'Music' anyway - they composition or the playing. If you play different notes, introduce new melodies, you change the 'Music'.

[Son of Númenor]

Davem, you're arguing against a point that no one is making.

can act within the world beyond the confines set by the Music - Eru permitting.

This is a redundancy: the world is the confines set by the Music. Yes, the free will of Men can alter Eä. That is not the same thing as altering the Music.

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

This debate of Men changing the Music and changing Eä could be resolved if we think that Eru foreknew the changes Men would make when he made the Third Theme.

Of course, this would make some people think that Men do what Eru just sung/played, and therefore, they are just robots of an omnipotent, omniscient being.

But predestination and prescience are not one and the same. One can foreknow without actually laying the path for the event.

Since we are all time-bound beings here (unless someone's not speaking up) we need an example. If I see a muon, I know that in 2.2 microseconds, it will decay into an electron, a neutrino, and an antineutrino. Now, this foreknowledge of mine does not mean I did the actual decay, because the muon is wholly other from me. But I can respond to it by photographing the decay, or something else.

Now, how does this apply to the Music? Perhaps Eru, unbound by time, saw the future at the same time Ainulindalë raged on before him, and introduced a new theme, one based on the actions Men would take when confronted with a certain situation.

But does this mean Eru made Men do certain things? No! As I said, the muon is a thing wholly other from me. And to Eru, Men are other.

Then Aulë took up a great hammer to smite the Dwarves . . . But . . . the voice of Ilúvatar said: 'Thy offer I accepted even as it was made. Dost thou not see that these things have now a life of their own, and speak with their own voices? Else they would not have flinched from thy blow, nor from any command of thy will.'

TS 2 - emphasis mine

Post-traumatic possum. H-I, I shall be reacting to your "Two Wills" post soon.

[Son of Númenor]

A muon does not have a will.

If the Creator knows before a Man is born what that Man will do, how does it follow that the Man controls his own destiny?

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

A muon does not have a will. (SoN)

I know, but I'm using some example that will most closely resembles what I think really happens. The muon's action, after all, is foreseeable.

If the Creator knows before a Man is born what that Man will do, how does it follow that the Man controls his own destiny? (SoN)

The Creator is both omnitemporal and extratemporal. He sees Time not as how we see. We're ignorant of how Someone can see Time all at once. But that is how He views it.

EDIT: Maybe my use of the words "foreknowledge" and "prescience" is throwing things up. I should perhaps just use "knowledge"--unprefixed--when referring to Eru.

[Son of Númenor]

I just don't see how I have a free will if God knows I am going to jump off a cliff and die when I'm 23.

[Formendacil]

If the idea I am getting from Nilp has survived the data transfer intact, perhaps it is not the concept of freewill that should perhaps be questioned, but that of time...

How do we KNOW that in the cosmic scheme of things, the Music took place BEFORE Arda?

Time, as we know it, was iniated at the same time as the beginning of Arda. The two are congruent. If, therefore, Arda's matter is wholly separate from the dwelling of Eru, in that it is a part of Ea, and thus a universe self-contained, is it's time not self-contained?

Therefore, it could follow that "time" has no meaning in the Halls of Eru, and that the Music can be said to be playing simultaneously before, during, and after the Events that mirror it in Arda.

If this is the case, how do we not know that the Music being orchestrated by Eru is not being dictated by the actions of Men in Arda? Or that the actions of the Ainur in and out of Arda are congruent because they are one and the same- at the SAME time?

Questions, questions... Always questions...

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

But yours is actually better.

[HerenIstarion]

Originally Posted by SoN

the world is the confines set by the Music

Good!

Originally Posted by SoN

If the Creator knows before a Man is born what that Man will do, how does it follow that the Man controls his own destiny?

Less so - Knowing is not forcing. Imagine that me and you were sitting for a day in a room, with nothing else to do but to watch each other. Seeing your past actions I may deduce your future actions with a good deal of accuracy. Per instance, if you haven't drunk for the whole morning, and smoked excessively, I do know that at one point soon you'll rise and go to the tap to pour yourself a glass of water. Presently, you do so - did I, who knew you would do that, actually force you to do it?

Originally Posted by Formendacil

Time, as we know it, was iniated at the same time as the beginning of Arda. The two are congruent. If, therefore, Arda's matter is wholly separate from the dwelling of Eru, in that it is a part of Ea, and thus a universe self-contained, is it's time not self-contained?

Quite a question, that. That's why Music is rails analogy may work

[davem]

Originally Posted by Nilpaurion

Davem, you're arguing against a point that no one is making.

Posts 16,18,20,23, 25, 27, 33, 39, 54, 55 are what I'm arguing against...

Originally Posted by Formendacil

Time, as we know it, was iniated at the same time as the beginning of Arda. The two are congruent. If, therefore, Arda's matter is wholly separate from the dwelling of Eru, in that it is a part of Ea, and thus a universe self-contained, is it's time not self-contained?

I think this is the point. There may have been process 'before' Arda was created - there were 'movements' in the Music which happened sequentially, but 'Time' only came in with Ea.

Is the 'Music' limited to what happened pre Ea? or does it include the 'performance' of the Music within Time? You cannot speak of a 'before' if there was no Time.

Thus, Arda is also the Music from one point of view. It is the same performance as Ainulindale in a different form. Yet, even within the original Music Men & Elves are introduced by Eru, & so, the freedom of action of Men is present. So, all is not set out in the Music sung by the Ainur. The Music itself is not complete & defined as some of the things sung will not happen. Ea is the same performance within the field of time, not a 'secondary' one. There is neither predestination in the Ainulindale nor in Ea, because they are both aspects of the same thing. I think once you move away from 'linear' thinking, 'before' (=Ainulindale) & 'after' (Ea) & think of the same event taking place in eternity & in Time, the problem disappears. When Tolkien refers to the 'echo' of the Music being heard in water, for instance, I don't think this refers to an 'echo' from the 'past', but an 'echo' 'down' from eternity, where the Music is taking place 'simultaneously'. An Ainur like Melkor is both in eternity singing the Music & performing it within Ea. Men are present in Ea, but they are also present in Eternity, introduced into the Cosmic Music by Eru. Being there, their presence changes the Music in both places/states.

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

I just don't see how I have a free will if God knows I am going to jump off a cliff and die when I'm 23. (SoN)

But what role, exactly, does God play in your suicide? He just knows it. He won't stop you if you really want to do it. As I said, you are other from God. Otherwise, he'd be better off playing with Lego figures.

God knows what we'll do, but it is we who actually go there.

Or, to quote the phantom on another thread (on how Eru's omniscience and free will can co-exist):

Perhaps Eru holds all the cards but chooses not to always look at them? Maybe He sits back and watches things unfold and shields Himself from His future knowledge except for in times when it is necessary?

Or perhaps He is somehow capable of knowing what is going to happen and being surprised by it at the same time?

Who knows? We're talking about a being who does not operate on the same plane as we do.

It's possible that if Eru himself answered the free will question we would lack the capacity to understand the explanation. (tp)

Originally Posted by Nilpaurion Felagund

But what role, exactly, does God play in your suicide? He just knows it. He won't stop you if you really want to do it. As I said, you are other from God. Otherwise, he'd be better off playing with Lego figures.

God knows what we'll do, but it is we who actually go there.

Or, to quote the phantom on another thread (on how Eru's omniscience and free will can co-exist):

I think you were drifting off the point of the original question here a little. Eru sent Saruman as leader of the Istari to unite the free people of ME against Sauron due to the crisis situation that was developing. He was sent with a specific reason, to perform this task together with the rest of the Order. He was, like Gandalf, forced to accept special conditions on his physical form & demonstration of his true power before being allowed to come to ME.

So Eru, after going through these things with the Istari, probably would not have known for sure of the true designs of Saruman (or why on earth send him to ME ahead of others in his realm?), but I guess that (a bit like, say Galadriel with Boromir) Eru would have suspected that something was not quite right from the beginning but could not perhaps pinpoint exactly what it was or what was going to happen & had no choice but to send Saruman & put faith in him.

Originally Posted by burrahobbit

Congratulations, Mansun, you figured it out. You win a cookie. Re: the second half, you gotta break a few eggs to make an omlette.

I always thought this comment was one of disrespect to one's intelligence. It is not wise to aim such things to a young Nutritional Biochemistry Graduate from a world class university who is a Quality Auditor for Coca Cola!

It is perilous to study to deeply the arts of the enemy himself