How old was Legolas?(again)

[Scapegoat]

I would like to present a theory that Legolas was a boy of about 9 years old when Smaug the Dragon descended on Erebor. This would make him about 252 year old at the time of the War of the Ring. First let me present this theory in full, then I will attempt to defend it.

Theory: When Legolas was a young boy, his father King Thranduil contracted with the Dwarves of Erebor to make his son a shirt of Mithril mail. It was never delivered due to the arrival of Smaug.

Of course I am speaking of the same Mithril mail given by Thorin to Bilbo.

In order for this theory to be correct a number of things have to be true. I will try to show that all of these particulars are reasonable and in most cases probable. Still if any link in this chain of logic is faulty, the whole theory fails.

First let us examine the the origin of this Mithril coat. Who made it and where?

The simplest explanation is that it was made by the Dwarves of Erebor. After all, it was of Dwarf make and it was found in Erebor. Thorin said it was made by his people. Also it was made of Mithril, a substance only mined in Moria, and doubtless more available to Durin's folk than to others, although still very rare.
Other possibilities come to mind. Smaug could have brought it with him from the Grey Mts or perhaps it was an old relic of Khazad-dum that Durin's folk carried with them before they finally settled in the Lonely Mtn. However it isn't clear how Smaug could come by a Mithril shirt made for an elf-boy whilst snoozing in the Grey Mountains, nor why Dwarves would hang on to it for centuries without putting it to some better use, like adjusting it to fit a Dwarf.
The 'Made in Erebor' scenario seems to fit all the known facts and requires the fewest assumptions. This, I think, makes it most likely to be the truth.

Next question. When was the Mithril coat made?

Bear in mind that while the shirt was made by Dwarves, it was made for an Elf. So there must be a reason that it was never delivered. The obvious reason is Smaug. If so, that would put the date of manufacture just before the Dragon's arrival(TA 2770). The coat could have been made long before and not delivered for some unknown reason, but again that makes us wonder why the Dwarves wouldn't have reforged it.
It would seem the 'Dragon Interruptus' scenario also fits the facts and requires the fewest assumtions.

Question three. Who was the coat made for?

It was for an Elf prince. He must have been just a boy since the coat was hobbit sized. I estimate he was nine years old because Beregond said that Pippin resembled a lad of nine summers and young elves had about the same growth rate as humans. But an Elf princeling didn't employ the Dwarves of Erebor. Where there is an Elf prince there must be an Elf Lord or Lady. Only an Elf of great wealth could have afforded such a gift for his son. A number of facts point to King Thranduil as the most likely candidate. His kingdom was by far the closest elf realm to Erebor. He was known to have engaged in commerce with his neighbors, while the other elf havens seem to have been secretive and closed. We know Thranduil had at least one son. The sons of Elrond were far to old, being born centuries before the founding of Erebor. Celeborn and Galadriel had only one daughter. No mention is made of Cirdan having children as far as I know.
There is one more piece of evidence that points to King Thranduil. Whoever ordered the coat was willing to spend a great deal of wealth on something of little practical value excepting its beauty. After all his son would soon grow out of it and certainly it wasn't to be worn in battle. In the Hobbit, the following is said about King Thranduil.

'If the elf-king had a weakness it was for treasure, especially for silver and white gems;'...

And the mithril-mail is described thus...

'It shown like moonlight silver, and was studded with white gems.'

Thranduil would have liked it.

Now for some possible objections to the mithril-mail/Legolas theory.

Why didn't King Thranduil claim the coat from Bilbo?
There is no doubt that Thranduil saw Bilbo wearing it. It is possible he didn't pay for the mail in advance and felt he had no right to it. Also it would hardly have been diplomatic for him to demand the coat after Bilbo had just given up the Arkenstone. In any case he said to Bilbo shortly after, "Bilbo Baggins! You are more worthy to wear the armour of elf-princes than many that have looked more comely in it."

Didn't Legolas say he was at least 500 years old?
Not quite. Here is the exact quote, spoken upon their arrival at the halls of King Theoden.

"Five hundred times have the red leaves fallen in Mirkwood in my home since then, and but a little while does that seem to us."

Note that Legolas says 'to us', not 'to me.' Some years ago the United States was celebrating the 200th aniversary of its Constitution. A European journalist was asked what he thought of the whole affair. His answer was that Europeans didn't think 200 years was a very long time. Of course we know that he was referring to the antiquity of European culture compared to that of America. Legolas could easily have meant the same thing, that Elvish civilization had been around much longer than Rohan.

Didn't Legolas mention feeling young again? Doesn't this imply he is not a 'young' elf?
It is difficult for us mortals to place ourselves in the mind of the Undying. Would an immortal being feel old after living 252 years? I don't know.

There have been a number of good theories about how old Legolas is. I have always thought that he was probably born at about the same time as the children of Elrond. Near the start of the Third Age. The above theory has the advantage of giving a more precise date of his birth. I give it a small chance of being true. So when Aragon held up the mithril mail for the Company to see, what do you suppose Legolas was thinking?

"Thief! Our Precous Mithril Coat! The Baggins! We hates it forever!"
[img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[Susan Delgado]

Very well thought out! Must think on it some more....

"Thief! Our Precous Mithril Coat! The Baggins! We hates it forever!"

If Legolas even knew about the coat, would he have cared? It was centuries removed from a daily topic and as you said, it wouldn't fit him.

[Telchar]

Good post [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] !!!!!!!!!!
Piece by piece:

The 'Made in Erebor' scenario seems to fit all the known facts and requires the fewest assumptions.

Personally I like: Made in Moria better. This is where mithril was found, this is where there was the most trade and communication between elves and dwarves (Second Age) - The interruption aspect (which I like) could then be the war between Sauron and the elves in Eregion. Or it could be made in Moria and interupted by the awakening of the Balrog TA1980 ( I think. no books available). But another possibility is that it was wrought in Nogrod or Belegost near the end of the First Age. The interuption could then be the dwarves feuds with the elves of Doriath - or the War of Wrath. (Or basicly any of the latter wars of Beleriand)
How then did it come to Erebor? Im guessing as a heirloom. Why wasn’t it reajusted to dwarfsize? I think that out of respect of the works of their forefathers the dwarves would not meddle in remaking a piece of art like the mithril coat.

When we take these aspect into mind the coat could have been forged from anywhere between FA 400 to TA2770.

Who was it made for - well the ‘slightly broarder’ time perspective gives a number of posibilities.

It was for an Elf prince. He must have been just a boy since the coat was hobbit sized. I estimate he was nine years old because Beregond said that Pippin resembled a lad of nine summers and young elves had about the same growth rate as humans.

I think actually that according to both HoME XII and somewhere in Letters (still no books available) it is said that elves even from early childhood grew in body more slowly and in mind more swiftly than the children of men. But that of course is a minor detail. The shirt might have been made for a 12 or a 15 years old elf (male or female).

When all that sceptism have been brougt out - I must say this - nice work - nice thinking - good theory - I was delighted to read it.
Personally though I’ve always held to this belief: Thranduil would never have left with his father for the battle of the Last Alliance without leaving an heir behind - his heir was Legolas - My belief is that Legolas is born somewhere in the First or Second Age - puzzeling enough, with the above mentioned - and this I never thought of - the coat might still have been made for him!!! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Cheers T

[ October 08, 2002: Message edited by: Telchar ]

[HerenIstarion]

the story deserves to become a RPG or even Fan Fic. It was pleasure to read [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] No copmments though due to lack of textual evidence

[Legolas]

If it took Fangorn Forest to make him feel young again, I'd bet he's a lot older than 252.

'It is old, very old,' said the Elf. 'So old that almost I feel young again, as I have not felt since I journeyed with you children. It is old and full of memory. I could have been happy here, if I had come in days of peace.'

Aragorn was almost 90 years old at this time. I don't think he would have said that if Aragorn was only 100-200 years behind him.

In the quote you presented, 'to us' means elves...elves that have lived at least that long, I'd imagine, and which he includes himself as a part of. It is not explicit, but seems that he has seen a number of 500-year periods go by. In any event, older than that which is speculated here.

Good story, though.

[ October 08, 2002: Message edited by: Legalos ]

[arelendil]

I'm sure i read in the movie guide that legolas was 2931 years old at the time of the council.
is that our years or elf years or is it wrong all together?

[Legolas]

arelendil - that was something made up for the movie. Tolkien never stated to Legolas' age, or gave evidence enough to come to a solid conclusion.

[Donlammenion]

(ACTUALLY BY 'THE REAL FINDORFIN' on friends password)

I've gotta say that whilst the mithril mail could have been made for an elven prince of mirkwood, Legolas probably isn't Thranduil's only son. For one thing, Legolas was sent to the Council of Elrond and would Thranduil have sent the heir to Mirkwood in such a time. I doubt it!

And it also seemes to me that Legolas doesn't have the 'heir' kind of aura around him. When Gandalf falls in Moria, Aragorn takes control. Now, surely if Legolas was an heir, he would want to be in charge. But it is obvious that he would rather follow than be followed.

So I'd have to say that the likelihood of the coat being made for Legolas is a bit far-fetched.

(I know the reasoning isn't exact but its a kinda gut feeling thing)

[Gorothlammothiel]

Elves indeed live longer than most races, and grew more beautiful with age. If so, is it possible that Elves grew physically older or aged slower than man does? If so, then the mithril coat could have been made for a young legolas and not necessarily a child legolas.

Also on this point, Hobbits ages are different - coming of age for a hobbit is 33, so are we to deduce that they age 4 times slower than we do? (just an idea)

(I appreicate that a work such as LOTR does not need be put in modern ways and that this doesn't need to be explained, but when you are trying to explain a point to someone who hasn't read the books, it's easier when you have some sort of modern reference).

[Reginald Hill]

One thing that may change all of these theories: In the appendices under Calenders it says that 1 "elf year" is equal to 144 of our years. They called the "solar year" loa, or growth. Any age that is stated could be using either type of year. Maybe this is just a minor detail but I think that it could make a difference

[Galorme]

2931 solar years would be 422064 Years of the Sun i.e. older than the world was at that point. Now thats one old elfman!

[Legolas]

What type of "aura" is a heir supposed to have? I think if Legolas had siblings, they probably would've been mentioned. Why wouldn't the only heir be sent to the Council of Elrond? Thranduil needed the message delivered promptly - it was of grave importance. Who better to trust then your son?

'Yeni' is a unit of time measurement. It is simply a short way of saying 144 years. It helps the elves out because they're alive so long...they speak of time in it as opposed to years. It does not mean when an elf says he is 6,000 years old, that he is really 6,000 x 144 years old. It means exactly what it says...that he is 6,000 years old.

'Yeni' does not replace 'year.' 'Yeni' is an alternate way of speaking about time. Just like if something was 1,000 grams...would a scientist say 1,000 grams or 1 kilogram? 1 kilogram.

[Roccotari Eldandil]

Just a small comment from one who has some experience with maille...
Chain mail, if hung a certain way, has a great deal of horizontal expansion while staying fairly close to the same length.
Hobbits are described in the book as being rather short and stocky; Elves are tall and slender.
Because of this difference, a shirt about hip-length on a slender, young (assume 5'6" to 6' tall) Elf may have been long (knee-length) on a full-grown, filled-out hobbit.
Therefore, I would tend to go with Legolas being perhaps slightly older than 252; if Elves mature (=stop growing?) at about 50, and this was made for him in late adolescence, I would say he may be closer to 280-300.

but then the question of "Would Thranduil have gone to the Last Alliance without an heir?" is valid to me, too...or maybe he was fine with letting the kingdom pass to a nephew. Or, still ANOTHER question...if Legolas was free to settle in Ithilien (and not rule Mirkwood), maybe he had an older sibling. Or maybe the coat was made for a younger sibling much later... Oh dear, I've just opened up another can of worms. I'll shut up now.

good discussion!!!

[Finwe]

I don't think that Legolas was the Heir to the throne of Mirkwood. He was probably the second or third son, because those are usually the ones who get sent on the ambassadorial/diplomatic missions. The Heirs usually (key word, usually) stay home, and generally try to be safe. In the case of Oropher and Thranduil at the Last Alliance, they probably needed as many Elves as they could get. Other, the other possibility is that Thranduil went along with his older brother (who, obviously, was the Heir) and his father, and the brother and father got killed, leaving Thranduil the throne.

Most of the time, second and third sons are considered "expendable," which is why they're sent on missions. Granted, Legolas was just supposed to go to Imladris to give them the news of Gollum's escape, but a mission is still a mission, especially during times of war. Thranduil must have known that Orcs were concentrating around the Elven strongholds, and in general areas. Why would he have risked his Heir? The answer is, he wouldn't. He naturally would have sent one of his slightly younger, albeit experienced, sons instead.

[Lost One]

It certainly doesn't seem that Legolas had a vast devotion to the Woodland Realm. He comes across as very impressed by the outside world, Lorien of course, and then Ithilien, to which he moves with a company from Mirkwood, before leaving Middle-earth (including his father and people)altogether. Still, I suppose this doesn't necessarily mean he wasn't the eldest son. Being an heir wasn't so important in an immortal race. There was no reason for Legolas to expect to outlast Thranduil, barring accidents, which of course might just as easily affect him I count wars and battles as accidents in this context. (It has always seemed to me unnecessary to think too much about heirship, inheritance and lines of succession being all that important to elves because of this fact.)

[Ainaserkewen]

There is so much mystery surrounding the elves of Mirkwood, as I've said before. I am curious as to how elves age. Do they age by their solar year, or our years, and if so, does an elf of 9 years resemble a boy of 9 years? Or is it something completely different?

As for the mithril coat idea, it's very well thought out and researched, but I feel that both Legolas and the coat were much older than a few centuries. I don't know how much hard evidence there is to back me up, but a personal belief of mine is that Frodo's mithril coat was made for a Noldorin prince. Why? Because they were the better friends of the dwarves(who made the coat) and throughout history, they've seemed to have the nicer things, especially war toys. The Sindarin and other such elves of darkness didn't have the same knowledge and understanding as the Noldor.

Final note: I believe that Legolas was born in Doriath and is much older than anybody thinks. Why? Because I want him to, and I can't find any evidence against that.

[Finwe]

Hmmm... I rather like the Noldorin prince theory, Ainaserkewen, but I believe that the Dwarves of the Lonely Mountain made the mithril-coat. I'm not quite sure if they were around during the First Age, and even if they were, I don't think that any of the Noldor got that far into Middle-earth (except for maybe Maglor, but by then he was already grown, and the mithril-coat wouldn't have fit him).

In Morgoth's Ring, it states that initially, Elves grow much more slowly than Men, so that an Elf child of 16 would look, and speak a lot younger than a Man child of 16. Elves completely "mature" at the age of 50, or at least that is when they are considered adults. Men (by Men, I mean those of the race of Mankind) probably attained that age in 18-20 years. After reaching 50, Elves did not grow much physically, but their power, or "aura," probably increased as they gained knowledge and power. Elves aged, yes, but they aged extremely slowly. Only after thousands of years would you see any signs of change on an Elf's face, whereas a Man would already be long dead by then.

[Ainaserkewen]

Thanks Finwe, I'll check it out.

[Legolas]

It is also occurs to me that he is at least older than 500, perhaps much older than that. I forgot to mention this quote earlier.

From III, 6; 'The King of the Golden Hall':

'Look!' said Gandalf. 'How fair are the bright eyes in the grass! Evermind they are called, simbelmynë in this land of Men, for they blossom in all the seasons of the year, and grow where dead men rest. Behold! we are come to the great barrows where the sires of Théoden sleep.'
'Seven mounds upon the left, and nine upon the right,' said Aragorn. 'Many long lives of men it is since the golden hall was built.'
'Five hundred times have the red leaves fallen in Mirkwood in my home since then,' said Legolas, 'and but a little while does that seem to us.'

[ November 21, 2003: Message edited by: Legolas ]

[Elladan and Elrohir]

There's (at least) one fault with the mithril-coat-made-for-Legolas theory, and that's the fact that Thranduil did not like Dwarves at all. He treated them worse than he did Gollum, when the 13 were imprisoned in The Hobbit. His dislike for Dwarves stemmed from the murder of Thingol by rabid Dwarves trying to take the Nauglamir. So would he order a mithril coat made by them for his son? I seriously doubt it.

Besides, as far as I have read, mithril was found only in Moria, so the coat had to have been made in Khazad-dum.

It may be that the precious Mithril Mail you talk of was from the treasure vaults of the Elves.
I am sure that during their long and interesting existence they will have aquired many items of immense value, as gifts from Kings or just beautiful things that they were pleased to look upon, there seems to be no shortage of gems and richness in their world.