Celebrian's Misfortunes

A fair point as well, Lush. But I still say only one thing: I honestly do not believe that Orcs would ever choose to go through that particular line of "war". Men maybe, or some other creature like that, maybe even Uruk-Hai. But not Orcs. It is not in their nature to be that crafty, or do something that has such a small amount of outward results after the damage has been done. For although rape is terrible, yes, I cannot imagine that that would ever be the chosen way that the Orcs would do things.

But yes, many may still (and have every right to) hold to their argument that you believe that is what probably happened...and yet as I said before, I see no reason to pursue this topic, as it still boils down to one thing. To each his own opinion and outlook on the world! Tolkien never gave a direct answer to what happened, so arguing really is pretty worthless isn't it?

P.S. Lol Nukapei! Thanks for being such a great sport! *high fives* Hehe, I know, post-picking-apart-manuevers... And I do know what you mean about that picture of Celebrian. I've always loved that one too...

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Adel

...and yet as I said before, I see no reason to pursue this topic, as it still boils down to one thing. To each his own opinion and outlook on the world! Tolkien never gave a direct answer to what happened, so arguing really is pretty worthless isn't it?
...

That would depend on what one's purpose in arguing is.

Some wish to bring people round to their side. Some might simply enjoy goading others into stronger and stronger statements--either playing devil's advocate or messing with other's ideas-- while still others might simply be interested in exploring the possibilities. For instance, I think Fordim's and SaucepanMan's posts here are interesting as explorations of the writing. They acknowledge the indeterminacy of the text and consider how that is a characteristic of the narrative. Isn't this valid?

Agreeing to disagree is a legitimate conclusion where people remain unconvinced. However, to suggest that a topic should not be pursued because there is no direct answer and because all we have are different opinions strikes me as a bit harsh. Surely discussion is all the more important where we don't have clear cut yes/no situations, where we can come to understand a variety of ways to consider a topic.

Or did you mean there's no point in pursuing the topic further, rather than at all?

Your point about the morgul poisoning is interesting, as it then suggests several purposes for Celebrian in the story. First, she provides her sons with reason and rationale to be always out fighting.(An important consideration when an author has some many characters at hand.) Second, she shows how close and personal has been the pain even in eminent, powerful elves. Third, she offers a way for astute readers to foretell Frodo's final fate. Although Elrond and Rivendell have 'healed' Frodo, we can surmise that there will be lasting effects. There is no magic bullet in LotR, but always a long defeat.

Oh, wait, Celebrian's absence also explains why/allows Arwen to spend so much time with Grandma Galadriel, where she can see Aragorn amidst the beauties of Lothlorien.

There are so many benefits to getting Celebrian out of the way. Hardly "a small amount of outward results", eh? It's the story that assaults her, not the orcs!

[davem]

Originally Posted by Neurion

How Celebrian was tormented is unimportant. What is important is the way it impacted her family, and how it affected their actions during the War of the Ring.

Have only skimmed this thread this time around, but this seems to me to be the central point.

In an early draft of the story, we find this version of Celebrian's capture & torment:

On a time long ago, as she passed over the mountains to visit her mother in the land of Lorien, Orcs waylaid the road, & she was taken captive by them & tormented; & though she was rescued by Elrond & his sons, & brought home & tended, & her hurts of body were healed, she lay under a great cloud of fear & she loved Middle earth no longer; so that at last Elrond granted her prayer, & she passed to the Grey Havens & went into the West, never to return.

Compared to the final version in RotK:

In 2509 Celebrian wife of Elrond was journeying to Lorien when she was waylaid in the Redhorn Pass, and her escort being scattered by the sudden assault of the Orcs, she was seized and carried off. She was pursued and rescued by Elladan and Elrohir, but not before she had suffered torment and had received a poisoned wound.* She was brought back to Imladris, and though healed in body by Elrond, lost all delight in Middle-earth, and the next year went to the Havens and passed over Sea.

We see that the in the later version Celebrian's suffering is worse - not only is she tormented, but she recieves a 'poisoned wound' - but the effects of it are less - she simply 'loses all delight in Middle earth as opposed to 'laying under a cloud of fear & loving Middle earth no longer'. What's also interesting is that in the original version she remains in Middle earth until Elrond 'grants her prayer' to be allowed to leave. I don't think this should be interpreted in a 'sexist' way - Elrond being the master in his house & his wife having to await his permission to depart - but rather as showing how committed they were to each other - she held on in Middle earth despite her terrible suffering & the fear she lived under because of her love for her husband. So, finally, Elrond submits & lets her go into the West. He remains out of duty & love of his remaining family - only after the fall of Sauron does he depart to find his wife.

In short, I think there's a danger of getting too caught up in what might or might not have happened to Celebrian at the hands of the Orcs. As Neurion has pointed out, it is the consequences of her sufferings which are important - which is why, I think, Tolkien focussed on them, rather than on a graphic description of what happened to her.

Sorry if I've repeated earlier points...

[Gorthaur the Cruel]

Then she really was raped if not seemingly.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Gorthaur the Cruel

Then she really was raped if not seemingly.

We'll never know, so its all speculation - you might as well toss a coin. The only thing we can know is the effect of the Orcs' 'torment' on her. I suspect that Tolkien chose not to tell us exactly what happened because he didn't feel that it was relevant.

Basically, the alternatives are: a)unknown/unknowable 'torment' in the dark at the hands of the Orcs, or b) specific, known torment (rape or otherwise).

a) is more disturbing & from a literary point of view more effective, because all we need to know is that what Celebrian went through was enough to break her spirit & make it impossible for her to remain in Middle earth. As soon as the 'torment' is precisely defined - whatever it was - there will be some readers who respond 'Well, that wasn't all that bad - fancy being broken by something like that!'. To know the effect on Celebrian engenders sympathy/empathy, because the reader will think of the worst 'torment' they can imagine for themselves - which might not be rape at all, whereas to know the cause, may produce the opposite effect & cause her to be percieved as 'weak'. The unseen monster is always scariest (as PJ should have realised re the Balrog!)

[Neurion]

Originally Posted by davem

As Neurion has pointed out, it is the consequences of her sufferings which are important - which is why, I think, Tolkien focussed on them, rather than on a graphic description of what happened to her.

I am referenced, therefore, I am.