Everyone trusts in Eru?

I've seen a lot of people in the thread "Was Gollum's slip the only way?" discussing the sheer absurdity of the task lying before Frodo. Literally, none but the most pure could perform a feat as great as throwing the One Ring into the Crack of Doom.

Gandalf, in the center of his being as Olorin, knew always that there was no hope for Frodo to throw the Ring into the Fire - it is an impossible task. (Given that Frodo and Sam overcame the ridiculously dangerous journey to Oroduin.) Yet he always maintained that there was hope for the Quest.

In this I can see nothing but absolute faith in Eru. Just as on the Bridge of Khazad-dum, Gandalf surrendered to his God and placed the entirety of his Mission in the hands of Eru. A heavily contested argument is that it was by the designs of Eru - in whatever way - that caused the Quest to destroy the Ring succeed.

(HALiverpool did suggest in the thread "Was Gollum's slip the only way?" that the power that caused the Ring's destruction was the Ring's own bond and curse. An excellent idea, although I personally am still convinced of the belief that even if this is true Eru was still fundamentally involved in such a circumstance.)

My question, given the involvement of Eru, is this: For what reason did every other member of the Wise than Gandalf (who is one of the very servants of the Secret Fire) trust in Eru's help? Surely it is blind trust. This is something I have never witnessed before in Middle-earth. They knew that of aid from the Valar they could reasonably expect nothing more than the Istari without causing more turmoil to Arda. Even the aid of the Valar was often spurned in the Elder Days. So to think that the Valar could aid Frodo in his insane quest would be irrational.

But who else could Galadriel, Elrond, and the other Wise rely on? Had they ever relied on divine forces/sheer chance working for them? When there can literally be no other way for them to succeed?

Never can I recall such a Kierkegaardian feat of faith on the behalf of so many characters of JRRT's writings.

[yavanna II]

THen, if you do, then you are putting on a blind trust in a sense that you don't know what He wants.

It is a matter of faith. The Wise and the other people hoped if not prayed that Eru/Iluvatar guide them in their works... just like the most of us humans pray yet still do our tasks.

It's rather hard to explain in English.... I can't put the words together...

[Gurthang]

It also could be that they had real hope that the Quest could be completed as designed. You said Gandalf knew it could not, yet said there was hope, so maybe the others beleived that there was. That was part of the reason Gandalf was in Middle-Earth... to give hope when there was none.

[VanimaEdhel]

Originally Posted by yavanna II

THen, if you do, then you are putting on a blind trust in a sense that you don't know what He wants.

It is a matter of faith. The Wise and the other people hoped if not prayed that Eru/Iluvatar guide them in their works... just like the most of us humans pray yet still do our tasks.

It's rather hard to explain in English.... I can't put the words together...

I think I understand what you are trying to say - Eru/Iluvatar can guide you to a correct path, but you must be the one to walk it. There is an element of choice, perhaps an inevitable outcome waits at the end of each fork, but you have to recognize the fork and try to take the one that will lead you to where you want to go. People should not rely on blind trust, saying, "Eru will take care of me: he will see that all turns out fine in the end." Eru can guide the events of the world, but it's up to the beings that inhabit it to make his will come to pass.

Many people believe that God will aid a person in his/her struggles, but that the person in question has to complete the action. God does not force fate into a rigid little straight line, but can only guide the beings creating history - try to make them see what is the right path and the wrong path.

There is a philosophy that says that with each choice we make, a new universe is created where we take the other path. Under that argument, one would say there is a universe, perhaps, where Frodo managed to hold onto the ring and take it as "his own." Eventually Sauron and the Nazgul would catch up with him. Therefore, there is a world where the quest failed, where Frodo and Sam, among others, died and the world was restored to bleak, dark times. The scene at Mount Doom could have gone so many ways - perhaps there was one where Frodo managed to throw off the ring before Gollum bit off his finger. Perhaps there is even a universe where Tom Bombadil did not come along in time to save the four Halflings.

[Gurthang]

Originally posted by VanimaEdhel

Many people believe that God will aid a person in his/her struggles, but that the person in question has to complete the action. God does not force fate into a rigid little straight line[emphasis mine], but can only guide the beings creating history - try to make them see what is the right path and the wrong path.

I must say that I strongly disagree. In real life and in Tolkien's realm.

From the Silmarillion

Then Iluvatar spoke, and he said : '...And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me[emphasis mine], nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined.'

AND

Iluvatar said again : 'Behold your Music! This is your minstrelsy; and each of you shall find contained herein, amid the design that I set before you, all those things which it may seem that he himself devised or added.'

Iluvatar specifically says that he made the Music and that everything will follow the music, even if someone was trying to not follow it. It may seem that a person did something on his own, but Eru states that it is still part of his design. Even before Elves and Men existed, even before Middle-Earth existed, Eru had everything planned.

My point is this: Iluvatar, being omniscient, made the plan in the beginning. Every being will follow that plan. Call it fate, call it divine intervention, whatever you want; it's going to happen. Each choice we make is a part of that plan, whether we want it to be or not. Even if we choose to do what we wouldn't do, it is still what was planned.

[Folwren]

It's the same faith that people put into God. It's a blind faith, as you said, and sometimes it's really hard to keep believing..

But Gandalf and the other Istari were like prophets God sent...and Gandalf was in a sense even a picture of Christ himself, though not entirely. (There were not any perfect pictures of Christ in the LotR.) They came and though they could not see the end of all things, they did know that in the end, God's will would be done, somehow or other. Gandalf didn't know if Frodo was going to be the one who ended up accomplishing the task he set out to do, but he knew that someone was going to do it, because his job was to see it done, and Eru wouldn't have sent him on an impossible task...therefore, the quest couldn't fail.

Gandalf, Galadrial, and Elrond and all the rest who were wise didn't rely in sheer chance. Gandalf even talked about the greater power, in the book it's in Shadow of the Past, and in the movie it's in Moria, and because I don't have the book with me, I'm not going to quote because I don't have it memorized exactly, but he did mention that there was a greater power than evil and all things that happened were meant to happen.

Not once, in any story of Middle-earth, have I witnessed those of Noldorin descent submitting so freely and so completely to the will of Illuvatar.

I cannot recall trust in Eru being the main constituent of any of the tales of the Elder Days. When Eru's power comes, it comes without a whisper. Yet here is Galadriel, openly recognising that the Quest is so perilously close to darkness - and allowing it! ... And they still let poor Frodo take the Ring.

The idea makes sense to me... Her retribution... But in way I just can't see it at all! It seems so silly that in ten thousand years for the first time everyone suddenly says, "Oh well, let's let Illuvatar decide and see if our last chance can succeed."

My question isn't theological. IMO Middle-earth is governed actively by the will of Eru, and I havent placed this under question. But why were so many of Tolkien's characters so passive? Why didnt they ever try to interfere (with what could very well in hindsight be Eru's plan) and come up with some alteration or other plan that would... more befit their characters?

Fright? Were they all just too scared to hold the Ring, or to let it remain in any place too long? Or did they really believe in the Quest?

[davem]

Originally Posted by Gurthang

Iluvatar specifically says that he made the Music and that everything will follow the music, even if someone was trying to not follow it. It may seem that a person did something on his own, but Eru states that it is still part of his design. Even before Elves and Men existed, even before Middle-Earth existed, Eru had everything planned.

My point is this: Iluvatar, being omniscient, made the plan in the beginning. Every being will follow that plan. Call it fate, call it divine intervention, whatever you want; it's going to happen. Each choice we make is a part of that plan, whether we want it to be or not. Even if we choose to do what we wouldn't do, it is still what was planned.

But:

For it is said that after the departure of the Valar there was silence, and for an age Duvatar sat alone in thought. Then he spoke and said: 'Behold I love the Earth, which shall be a mansion for the Quendi and the Atani! But the Quendi shall be the fairest of all earthly creatures, and they shall have and shall conceive and bring forth more beauty than all my Children; and they shall have the greater bliss in this world. But to the Atani I will give a new gift.' Therefore he willed that the hearts of Men should seek beyond the world and should find no rest therein; but they should have a virtue to shape their life, amid the powers and chances of the world, beyond the Music of the Ainur, which is as fate to all things else; and of their operation everything should be, in form and deed, completed, and the world fulfilled unto the last and smallest.

So, while the Music is 'as fate to all things else', it is not as fate to Men. Men can 'shape their life, amid the powers and chances of the world'.


As to swiftshadowofutumno's point:

But why were so many of Tolkien's characters so passive? Why didnt they ever try to interfere (with what could very well in hindsight be Eru's plan) and come up with some alteration or other plan that would... more befit their characters?

My own feeling is that by the end of the Third Age the Elves had surrendered to fate (ie the Will of Eru) - they knew that they could not rule the world, as they had once believed. They were 'beaten'. They couldn't change the Music, but perhaps Men could....

This opens up a can of worms - like, was Eru dependent on Men to do what had to be done? By being exempt from 'fate' were they 'wild cards' - Sauron, being bound by the Music, couldn't possibly predict what Men (& Hobbits) would do. He couldn't think outside the box, they could. Perhaps that's why the Quest is left in the hands of mortals, & the Elves simply did all they could to aid them, but in the main stayed out of the way.

[Saurreg]

I suppose the Valars and Maiars would have knew of predestination by Eru and hence those that abide by his ways would have had absolute faith in the omnipotent one's plans. The only exception was Melkor who heard the words of the almighty but chose to go against it. As for Sauron, and the other lesser spirits who became corrupted, it is possible that they heard Eru but chose to ignore it or that the power of their corruptor was too strong to resist when they were in middle-earth. For example; Sauron could have his will and very nature bent by Melkor who was physically closer to him than Illuvatar and hence, perhaps could have exerted a greater aura of supernatural influence. Ditto for the balrogs.

Saruman was proud of his own knowledge and prowess and that pride was a seed of his downfall. Why he strayed from his mission and became a pale imitation of Sauron could be due to his own nature as well as the fact that his mission came from the Valars (not Illuvatar himself) who have been proven wrong before and with it came perhaps doubt of the fruitfulness of its objective.

The above two examples could be part of the "music" or the predestination of Eru, in which Eru intented for the corruption of Sauron and the fire-demons and the fall from grace of Saruman.

I also submit that the firstborn were so passive during the late Third Age because they have tired of middle-earth and life there. They have underwent much of the great pivotal events during its evolution and have come out from most part of those happenings on the "discounted" end. I suppose one can only endure this much disappointment, tragedy and horror before becoming spent and apathetic. Much like France during WWII when it was already scarred, ravaged and bled white by the previous great war. Not only was there a diminishing of spirits but also a diminish in power. Since the fall of Gil-galad, elven miltary prowess should have been on the wane and the magical prowess of generations of elves born outside valinor would have been minute also compared to their mighty forebears who returned to ME, fresh from paradise. So it would be a combination of being unwilling to be pro-active as well as being unable to.

[Folwren]

Another thought on the fact that they sent Frodo off with the ring and didn't take it upon any of themselves is probably because he was the one who would least likely fall to it's power, and if he did, he couldn't really do much with it. If Gandalf or Galadrial took it, it would be, in the end, just as bad as if Sauron took it back and their purpose would be defeated. They couldn't let men take it because then invariably Sauron would get it back. Perhaps a Hobbit was their only chance...even if the chance was slim...and even though the odds were a million to one, there was that one and they had to take it, because there was no other way.

[VanimaEdhel]

Originally Posted by davem

So, while the Music is 'as fate to all things else', it is not as fate to Men. Men can 'shape their life, amid the powers and chances of the world'.

Originally Posted by davem

My own feeling is that by the end of the Third Age the Elves had surrendered to fate (ie the Will of Eru) - they knew that they could not rule the world, as they had once believed. They were 'beaten'. They couldn't change the Music, but perhaps Men could....

This opens up a can of worms - like, was Eru dependent on Men to do what had to be done? By being exempt from 'fate' were they 'wild cards' - Sauron, being bound by the Music, couldn't possibly predict what Men (& Hobbits) would do. He couldn't think outside the box, they could. Perhaps that's why the Quest is left in the hands of mortals, & the Elves simply did all they could to aid them, but in the main stayed out of the way.

Great, great points, davem. My own feeling, in connection to the Elves surrender to fate as opposed to the tendency of Men to still shape their own fate has to do with the idea of the mortality of Men. Men only had a finite number of years to live - after that, they died, leaving Middle Earth and whatever work they left undone. Meanwhile, there was a depressing push of eternity on the Elves. There was a sense of whatever they did would not really matter in the long run - in fact, they could probably always procrastinate, do it tomorrow. They were not about to die of old age, so there wasn't any urgency to get everything they wanted done. Meanwhile, Men seemed to live with the fear of death plaguing them constantly - they were forced out of any apathy they may have, knowing that if they did not live and correct the wrongs in their lives now, they may never see their desires fulfilled.

Historically, every society has had a rise and a fall. There is also a tendency for cultures on the incline to feel invincible. For most men living in the Third Age, they were beginning to see the power of the Elves wane, and their own power increase - Elves were not to rule the world, while men were still, as you said, a "wild card" in the fate of the world department. Even if Men saw an eventual end to their own power inevitable, most believed they would not live to see it, thus enjoying a certain amount of success. However, many Elves that lived through the glorious times of their own civilization were also always cursed to live in its decline as well. That's a pretty bleak prospect - being alive for both the birth and death of a beautiful time for your people. Knowing that you will live after the fall and always carry with you memories of the greatness without being able to recreate it can be an ominous thought. You may have more of a tendency to surrender, saying, "Well, eventually the end of our good fortune will come, perhaps this is the day."

[Saurreg]

Originally Posted by VanimaEdhel

Great, great points, davem. My own feeling, in connection to the Elves surrender to fate as opposed to the tendency of Men to still shape their own fate has to do with the idea of the mortality of Men. Men only had a finite number of years to live - after that, they died, leaving Middle Earth and whatever work they left undone. Meanwhile, there was a depressing push of eternity on the Elves. There was a sense of whatever they did would not really matter in the long run - in fact, they could probably always procrastinate, do it tomorrow. They were not about to die of old age, so there wasn't any urgency to get everything they wanted done. Meanwhile, Men seemed to live with the fear of death plaguing them constantly - they were forced out of any apathy they may have, knowing that if they did not live and correct the wrongs in their lives now, they may never see their desires fulfilled.

Procrastination is a very distinctive trait of men, one should wonder whether the firstborn share this trait, being what they are - growing wiser in mind with the ages. Would all the elves, even the greatest ones like Elrond and Cirdan give way to apathy or even lethargy simply because they know that they are immortal? One should think that with everlasting life, the great elves would have the experience and wisdom to know that procrastination and inactivity was dangerous, especially so during the TA when the strength of the elves and Dunedain are diminished and Sauron yet to be vanquished. In such desperate times, alacrity and initiative was important because with every passing moment the potency of good waned whereas evil grew stronger.

Historically, every society has had a rise and a fall. There is also a tendency for cultures on the incline to feel invincible. For most men living in the Third Age, they were beginning to see the power of the Elves wane, and their own power increase - Elves were not to rule the world, while men were still, as you said, a "wild card" in the fate of the world department. Even if Men saw an eventual end to their own power inevitable, most believed they would not live to see it, thus enjoying a certain amount of success. However, many Elves that lived through the glorious times of their own civilization were also always cursed to live in its decline as well. That's a pretty bleak prospect - being alive for both the birth and death of a beautiful time for your people. Knowing that you will live after the fall and always carry with you memories of the greatness without being able to recreate it can be an ominous thought. You may have more of a tendency to surrender, saying, "Well, eventually the end of our good fortune will come, perhaps this is the day."

Good post!

[Tuor of Gondolin]

To briefly interject, it's seemed to me that (partly from the above quote of Iluvatar)
__________________________________________
Then Iluvatar spoke, and he said : '...And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me[emphasis mine], nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined.'
__________________________________________
that Iluvatar controls the overall plan and fate of Ea and it's
inhabitants, but that within this plan a role for free will is allowed. Morgoth and Sauron revolt and have a considerable effect, but eventually are interceded with
(such as at the end of the First Age allowing the Battle of the Valar, permitting the Faithful to survive Numenor, and sending the Istari). The free peoples can, and may fail, and that would have consequences, but I'd suggest that eventually Eru would intercede to put Middle-earth "back on track" even after Sauron got the ring.
Several quotes by Gandalf (I can't look them up now) seem contradictory
but may not be.
One of them says something like, Sauron with the Ring would dominate earth as far as can be seen , but the other that he (Gandalf) would not wholly fail if anything beautiful (a flower?) survived. Which suggests, to me, that a backup plan would kick in if the quest failed (though that plan might take many years to be effective (for example, perhaps the Blue Wizards had not wholly been in vain and some of the seeds they sowed in the East would lead to revolts against Sauron?).

[davem]

I'd only say that knowing what will happen (ie Eru's omniscience) is very different from making it happen (ie Eru's omnipotence). Eru may know exactly what will happen, but that doesn't necessarily mean that He causes it to happen...

Which is where, I think, free will on the part of Men (at least) doesn't conflict with Eru's full knowledge of what Men will decide to do.

[Gurthang]

Originally posted by davem
I'd only say that knowing what will happen (ie Eru's omniscience) is very different from making it happen (ie Eru's omnipotence). Eru may know exactly what will happen, but that doesn't necessarily mean that He causes it to happen...

Which is where, I think, free will on the part of Men (at least) doesn't conflict with Eru's full knowledge of what Men will decide to do.

I've heard that point before, but I don't think I agree with it. It seems to me that if someone knows what will happen, and has actually planned out what will happen, then it must happen. It doesn't make sense that free will exists when the future is certain.

Earlier davem pointed out that the Music is fate to all but men. Yet something in that quote befuddles me. The word 'beyond' seems to say 'apart', insomuch that 'beyond the Music of the Ainur' is apart from the circles of Arda. What I mean is that men follow the Music while they live in Ea, but then they pass on to somewhere else, and there have the chance to shape themselves. So 'beyond the Music of the Ainur' would mean after they die and live Ea.

Yet that same quote blows everything I just said by also stating that Men 'should have a virtue to shape their life, amid the powers and chances of the world'. I read that as it's saying in the world and apart from the world at the same time, but that doesn't make a lot of sense.