Hurin the Wraith

[Kuruharan]

I was just rummaging through the back part of the barrow when I came across this old thread.

My current curisoity is over the nature of Morgoth's power over Hurin's life. If Morgoth had kept Hurin in that state for a much longer period of time, would Hurin eventually have turned into a wraith of some sort? Obviously, the spirit remaining in the body for an indefinite period of time would be unnatural. Would Hurin have eventually expired in spite of Morgoth's curse or would he have eventually wasted away until he became a Gollum-like creature or a wraith or wight of some kind?

[Saurreg]

I am under the impression that Hurin was released from bondage with his death. I also believe that the curse of Morgoth only extended to the affecting the life of the one being cursed and nothing more. The thought that Hurin might became a wraith never crossed my mind and I do not think it was possible under circumstances.

Hurin's fate was forcifully altered by the dark menace of Morgoth and as such his ka was afflicted by a force majeure; one of nature that was beyond Hurin's innate ability to resist. The nine ring wraiths on the other hand fell into temptation and accepted the power of the rings which was essentially infused by the essence of Sauron. With that I believe those beings' spiritual bodies were contaminated by the extented presence of Sauron who was then able to slowly influence their thoughts and feelings and ultimately control them - all because they had unwittingly allowed him influence over their very being through manipulated invitation (i.e the lesser ring of power). Over the ages, all things must change and I am under the opinion that the original bodies of the nine had withered away but so strong was the presence of Sauron within them that his power was able to sustain them and give them a supernatural consciousness and bound them to Middle-Earth. What was left of their spiritual body might have evolved/mutated beyond the original Ka form and have become an off-shot entity that is controlled and tied to the fate of the puppet-master itself. Which is incidently why I think the remaining eight perished as soon as the Ring; the source of Sauron's concentrated power was destroyed.

The key difference between Hurin and the wraiths were that the latter had his fate forcefully altered but he might not have broken down mentally and spiritually. The latters might not have accepted Sauron directly, but by wielding the lesser rings of power, they let their guard down, gave in to temptation and accepted the control of sauron indirectly.

[Kuruharan]

You have a good point about the nature of Morgoth's power over Hurin as opposed to Sauron's power over the Ringwraiths. However, this line is very difficult...

and never shalt thou move from this place until all is fulfilled unto its bitter end.

The Sil

This brings up the question of if Morgoth knew that Hurin's children would all be dead before the end of Hurin's own life. It has also occured to me that the reason why Morgoth let Hurin go is because Hurin was about to die anyway.

However, the above line does not cause nearly the problems as this one...

There he was bound by the power of Morgoth; and Morgoth standing beside him cursed him again and set his power upon him, so that he could not move from that place, nor die, until Morgoth should release him.

The UT

There may be a reason why this line was not included in The Sil. CT may have seen the problem or JRRT before him and decided that Morgoth's curse needed a little rewriting.

[Tuor of Gondolin]

A central problem with Morgoth's curse is its seeming interference with
a key aspect of Middle-earth, free will.

As for Morgoth's observation about Hurin not dying, could he have
seen aspects of Hurin's fate in the Music of the (Ainur?)? Perhaps then
"curses" and "prophecies" might be a recognition by individuals now dwelling in Middle-earth of aspects of the Music, or Morgoth's meddling discordencies, rather then an active intervention towards individuals in Middle-earth? (More like reading a book as opposed to writing it).

[Saurreg]

Originally Posted by Tuor of Gondolin

A central problem with Morgoth's curse is its seeming interference with
a key aspect of Middle-earth, free will.

I am not sure where you are heading here. But everybody sentient being on ME would possess a certain degree of self-awareness and exercise free will. However when confronted by a force majeure that free will is easily suppressed.

As for Morgoth's observation about Hurin not dying, could he have
seen aspects of Hurin's fate in the Music of the (Ainur?)? Perhaps then
"curses" and "prophecies" might be a recognition by individuals now dwelling in Middle-earth of aspects of the Music, or Morgoth's meddling discordencies, rather then an active intervention towards individuals in Middle-earth? (More like reading a book as opposed to writing it).

This comment is very similar in content to the discussion in this thread.

I nevertheless still submit that Hurin's fate was altered by the active intervention by Morgoth more than anything else. Though the same might have befell Huor if he was the one who survived instead of his brother.

[Kuruharan]

As for Morgoth's observation about Hurin not dying, could he have
seen aspects of Hurin's fate in the Music

It is a thought but I doubt it. The Children came after the part of the Music that the Ainur participated in. None of the Valar really understood the Children very well. If any of them clearly understood the fate of any of the Children I would think it would be Mandos rather than Morgoth.

Perhaps then
"curses" and "prophecies" might be a recognition by individuals now dwelling in Middle-earth of aspects of the Music, or Morgoth's meddling discordencies, rather then an active intervention towards individuals in Middle-earth?

In spite of what I said above, I find this idea rather attractive. However, given what I said above I'm not sure how that would work.

I nevertheless still submit that Hurin's fate was altered by the active intervention by Morgoth more than anything else.

I'm inclined to agree. However, this gets back to the original problem. None of the Valar had the power to deny death to Men yet Sauron did it and I believe the implication is that Morgoth had the power to do so as well. Does this mean that the Valar had the technical ability to keep Men from dying to this world but their loyalty to Eru prevented them from exercising this power?

[Saurreg]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

I'm inclined to agree. However, this gets back to the original problem. None of the Valar had the power to deny death to Men yet Sauron did it and I believe the implication is that Morgoth had the power to do so as well. Does this mean that the Valar had the technical ability to keep Men from dying to this world but their loyalty to Eru prevented them from exercising this power?

That could very well be the case. Remember the choices given to Elros and Elrond. The very right to grant immortal life was made at the sole discretion of the Valars alone without consultation to Illuvatar. Therefore I think it was very possible for them to be ably to control the longevity and indeed the very nature of individuals.

[Tuor of Gondolin]

"Remember the choices given to Elros and Elrond. The very right to grant immortal life was made at the sole discretion of the Valars alone without consultation to Illuvatar. Therefore I think it was very possible for them to be ably to control the longevity and indeed the very nature of individuals."
-----------------------

Very interesting speculation, but I don't recall a definitive statement that the
Valar acted independently of Eru in the matter of the half-elven. Is there some reference? My impression/assumption has always been that it was Eru's
decision, wth the Valar acting as intermediaries, but that's only an inference on my part.

[Kuruharan]

Very interesting speculation, but I don't recall a definitive statement that the
Valar acted independently of Eru in the matter of the half-elven.

I doubt if they did act independently. That is part of their gig is to obey the will of Eru.

That is possibly why Morgoth and Sauron were able to do what they did is that they had tried to break as many ties with Eru's restrictions as possible, this could include not meddling with the lifespans of the Children.

[Saurreg]

But when all was spoken, Manwë gave judgement,and he said: "In this matter the power of doom is given to me. The perils that he ventured for the love of the Two Kindred shall not fall upon Eärendil, nor shall it fall upon Elwing his wife, who entered into peril for love for him; but they shall not again ever walk among elves and men in the Outer Lands. And this is my decree concerning them: to Eärendil and to Elwing, and to their sons, shall be given leave each to choose freely which kindred their fates shall be joined, and under which kindred they shall be judged."

-Of the Voyage of Eärendil, The Silmarillion

I hereby stand by my "speculation".

[Numenorean]

Well met Kuru, Saureg & Tuor, interesting lines of thought you have all had here, things that I too have pondered at length. Sorry to jump in after you have probably moved on from this, but like Kuru has already said:

My current curiosity is over the nature of Morgoth's power over Húrin's life. If Morgoth had kept Húrin in that state for a much longer period of time, would Húrin eventually have turned into a wraith of some sort?

I would not find that too difficult to believe at all. Indeed, was Húrin already a wraith of sorts from the moment that Morgoth "set his power upon him"? The fact that Húrin somehow survived for 28 impossibly harsh years upon a bleak and desolate mountainside, without food nor any natural sustinence leads me to believe that he was infused with supernatural life and power - directly from Morgoth himself . No small thing as under 'normal' circumstances he should have died within weeks/days of being chained to Angband. Through Morgoth he also saw and heard things that were far beyond his ken to do so, again this indicates he was something other than simply human, he was by despicable extention of this theory, an unwilling ancillary of the Bauglir himself.
Saureg:

I am under the impression that Húrin was released from bondage with his death. I also believe that the curse of Morgoth only extended to the affecting the life of the one being cursed and nothing more.

The first point you raise here does not necessarily exclude the possibility that Húrin was or could be a wraith. Perhaps if he had not taken his own life he may have endured a Sméagolesque unaturally long lifespan, who can really say? In the past I always baulked over Húrins suicide, but I have since come to believe that he did it as a direct act of defiance and faith. When Morgoth says to him “…beyond the Circles of the World there is Nothing.” It seems clear that it is an attempt to make him fear death and not accept it as Ilúvatars Gift to Men. Thus by ending his own life Húrin both defies Morgoths bleak statement and reaffirms his own faith in the Valar, his choice of place to commit this act – the Westernmost shores of Beleriand – is also significant.
Your second point Saureg – regarding the scope of Morgoths curse only affecting Húrin is something I disagree with. Here are the exact words of the curse:
“But upon all whom you love my thought shall weigh as a cloud of Doom, and it shall bring them down into darkness and despair. Wherever they go, evil shall arise. Whenever they speak, their words shall bring ill counsel. Whatsoever they do shall turn against them. They shall die without hope, cursing both life and death.”
Unfortunately this is exactly what does happen, specifically to Túrin but also in degrees to Morwen and Nienor. Húrin may have been the catalyst but his family - his loved ones - bore the very real consequences of the curse to their bitter ends.

It seems that it is feasibly within the power of both Vala and Maiar to affect and alter the lifespan of Erus children, if they were inclined to do so. This is why, as Kuru puts it:

Morgoth and Sauron were able to do what they did is that they had tried to break as many ties with Eru's restrictions as possible, this could include not meddling with the lifespans of the Children.

Sauron and Morgoth obviously did not feel bound to obey the rules of governance that Manwë and his train did, therefore their power, when laid upon mortals, changed the natural order of the subjects life – Húrin, the Nazgûl, Sméagol even Bilbo all lived far longer than they should have as a direct result of being bestowed with Ainuric power. Sauron and Morgoth took the power of doom and warped it to their own evil purpose, regardless of the effect it had or the rules they broke in doing so. I feel that other powerful Ainur could also have done this, but for the most part they seem to have obeyed the will and restrictions of Eru - unless given special dispensation to act, as seen in the case of the Peredhil that Saureg has just quoted:

Manwë gave judgement, and he said: "In this matter the power of doom is given to me…”

[Saurreg]

Greetings Numenorean! It is agreeable that you could participate in this discussion with us.

A fundamental point that cannot be established without dispute is the very nature of the wraiths themselves and the way the power of Sauron was channeled through the formers resulting in supernatural abilities, appearance and longevity. One can argue loosely that any sentient being or indeed creature that had its natural being or fate altered by Morgoth or Sauron over a considerable period of time can be considered a wraith. Similarly by being more precise and comparing Hurin after twenty eight years of bondage to any of the nine ring wraiths, we can see that there is a mark difference in the very natural of the two entities - one is an aged but nevertheless living breathing human being while the other has already mutated to an evolutionary being of its own kind.

As such I still believe that it is the nature in which power was infused into the non-corporeal matter that distinguish between the two. Agreed, that Hurin was supernaturally kept alive for the years without sustenance. But he never submitted to the powers of Morgoth and allowed them to rule him. On the other hand the nine willingly embraced the rings of power and most probably surrendered their will to the rings and thus indirectly allowed Sauron to control their very spiritual bodies.

You are right in pointing out that I overlooked the continuation of the curse on Hurin's offspring.

[Kuruharan]

Agreed, that Hurin was supernaturally kept alive for the years without sustenance. But he never submitted to the powers of Morgoth and allowed them to rule him. On the other hand the nine willingly embraced the rings of power and most probably surrendered their will to the rings and thus indirectly allowed Sauron to control their very spiritual bodies.
-Saurreg

While I'm not sure I entirely agree with Saurreg's idea that the wraiths were entirely a different breed of creature, I find this idea of the difference between the willingness and acceptance of the Nazgul and Hurin to be interesting. However, I'm not entirely sure what to make of it.

The fact that Húrin somehow survived for 28 impossibly harsh years upon a bleak and desolate mountainside, without food nor any natural sustinence leads me to believe that he was infused with supernatural life and power - directly from Morgoth himself .
-Numenorean

This is an interesting point. The Rings had a much longer time to work on their bearers than Morgoth had on Hurin. Hurin was only (I say only ) in Morgoth's hands for 28 years. I always believed that the Nazgul would have had their Rings as living men for a much longer period.

Good point about not having any food. That was something that had not occurred to me before and would certainly have made the whole experience much more miserable.