Visit The *EVEN NEWER* Barrow-Downs Photo Page |
05-13-2005, 06:16 PM | #1 |
Guest
Posts: n/a
|
Who was the most foolish ruler of all?
This thread probably won't go too far, but just curious. What are your nominations for the most foolish rulers of all time in any of the books and how so?
There are several, but these are my top personal pics: -Ar-Pharazon, last king of Numenor. For bringing the enemy home, and leading to the downfall of Numenor. -Earnur, last king of Gondor (pre Aragorn) for riding foolishly into Minas Morgul for a duel with the lord of the Nazgul while accompanied only by a small group. |
05-14-2005, 12:58 PM | #2 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Between the fortune cookie and the post-its.
Posts: 644
|
I'll second Ar-Pharazon. Though I suppose that anyone could be taken in by really good diplomacy. But it would have to be incredibly good to get anywhere with me.... Not that I'm flaunting that, or anything.
Denathor wasn't the brightest bulb during his last yeras, either, though. But Ar-Pharazon takes the cake, in my opinion.
__________________
I'd like to be the king of all Londinium and wear a shiny hat. |
05-14-2005, 04:19 PM | #3 |
Alive without breath
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: On A Cold Wind To Valhalla
Posts: 5,912
|
I'll have to vote Melkor. I do have reasons before you castrate me!
1) He lost most (if not all) his power very early on and became a very weak individual. To try and rule in that state would be folly. 2) His shear pig-headed ness and soberness makes him rash and easily distracted from matters of importance. 3) People would revolt and cast him down eventually. 4) His only real leader qualities are in military strategy. When it comes down to matters of governing, I think he'd be poor. I believe, if he ever became ruler of anything more than Angband and his other lands, he would soon realise how foolish he'd been. Not that he would admit it as Manwe would say "Ha ha! I was rite! You were wrong Nah, Nah!"
__________________
I think that if you want facts, then The Downer Newspaper is probably the place to go. I know! I read it once. THE PHANTOM AND ALIEN: The Legend of the Golden Bus Ticket... |
05-14-2005, 04:39 PM | #4 |
Maundering Mage
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Texas
Posts: 4,648
|
I would actually say that Fëanor was one of the most foolish leaders. He had great power to influence people and yet he used it to estrange his people from the power he needed to actually accomplish his purpose. Meaning the separating himself from the Valar. He used his influence and power to insight evil deeds, the Kinslaying being one of the most fiendish. Much like Hookbill said of Melkor he is so consumed with himself that he doesn't look to his own people. He led his own in his quest to get his jewels back. He drew a wedge among his followers by abandoning a host of his followers to either return in shame to Aman, stay and die, or attempt to cross Helcaraxë when he needed all the help and support he could get. And let's not forget about that little oath of his and it's wonderful outcomes.
__________________
“I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo. "So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us.” |
05-14-2005, 04:56 PM | #5 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Between the fortune cookie and the post-its.
Posts: 644
|
Hmm... I hadn't thought about Melkor, Hookbill, but you've got a good point.
You too, mormegil. Feanor certainly wasn't the sharpest knife in the drawer..
__________________
I'd like to be the king of all Londinium and wear a shiny hat. |
05-14-2005, 09:42 PM | #6 |
Laconic Loreman
|
I would disagree with Denethor. He was a man as Tolkien said became corrupted by politics, but he was quite good at what he did. All the more amazing still remaining to keep sanity (for the most part) while viewing the palantir for 40+, dealing with the death of his wife and son, and his other dying son, as well as seeing his kingdom on the verge of destruction. But, that's just a matter of differing opinions, it's definitely easier to dislike Denethor, then it is to like him.
I would vote Fengel. Just because he wasn't very well liked. He caused strife with his marshal's, his own son hated him so much he went to Gondor and was reluctantly returned back after his father died to take his place. He loved gold, cared nothing for friends. Sounds very stupid to me, and quite foolish.
__________________
Fenris Penguin
|
05-15-2005, 01:01 AM | #7 |
Byronic Brand
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: The 1590s
Posts: 2,778
|
Mormegil, I agree with you somewhat on Feanor, but would add the caveat that he was a brilliant general in times of war, with that crucial one Lionheart-like weakness-lack of self-preservation. I also understand his motives for "cutting himself off from the Valar", as splendidly expressed by him when he answers Manwe's herald. And the Kinslaying, though a terrible thing to initiate, has to be seen in the light of Finwe's death and Feanor's longing for revenge.
I would disagree entirely on Denethor. It seems to me that we see all of Melkor's humiliations, because he's the baddie. That still doesn't mean we can neglect his achievements-if they can be called that, as they are all negative. Supreme among these for me is his mastery of treachery-twice against Maedhros (including the Nirnaeth), infinitely against Hurin's family, and against Turgon through Maeglin. Ar-Pharazon is an excellent choice. I don't actually think much of Helm Hammerhand. Belligerently stirring up racial feuds which led to the near destruction of Rohan. Earendil, whatever else he was, proved a poor ruler to his people. But surely Sauron takes the biscuit. I mean-putting his power into a ring? That's just comical... I like this thread, and will return to it when I have more. Have we already got a positive one? I might ressurect if I find it.
__________________
Among the friendly dead, being bad at games did not seem to matter -Il Lupo Fenriso |
05-15-2005, 08:35 AM | #8 | |
Corpus Cacophonous
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: A green and pleasant land
Posts: 8,390
|
Quote:
__________________
Do you mind? I'm busy doing the fishstick. It's a very delicate state of mind! |
|
05-15-2005, 01:13 PM | #9 |
Byronic Brand
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: The 1590s
Posts: 2,778
|
Feanor's political career-and it truly pains me to say this-could be construed by some as similar to Hitler's; diplomacy being viewed by both as a cumbersome thing that can be lightly dispensed with. I prefer the metaphors I've thought up so far-Achilles and Richard Plantagenet, both heroes of mine-so far though...
__________________
Among the friendly dead, being bad at games did not seem to matter -Il Lupo Fenriso |
05-24-2005, 09:17 AM | #10 |
Wight
|
this is an extremly wonderful topic!
[QUOTE=Anguirel] But surely Sauron takes the biscuit. I mean-putting his power into a ring? That's just comical... QUOTE] i agree... who would put his power into a ring that would eventually fall into the wrong hands and destroy middle earth as we know it?! thats just nuts!
__________________
" You can't toast me!" |
06-09-2005, 04:52 AM | #11 |
Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: in my own little world
Posts: 142
|
I'd like to agree for Ar-Pharazon... a really stupid git who took an evil Maia home with him... hasn't he got the wits to think about how cunning Sauron can be, I mean, he's just too proud... and he really isn't the heir, it was his cousin/wife Miriel...
Also I'd like to point out that Tar Palantir did the very mistake of not securing the kingdom to his daughter... though he really isn't stupid, he just overlooked the fact that his brother and his nephew wanted to rebel against the Valar... |
06-09-2005, 10:18 AM | #12 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Pennsylvania, WtR, passed Sarn Gebir: Above the rapids (1239 miles) BtR, passed Black Rider Stopping Place (31 miles)
Posts: 1,548
|
I've got to go with Tuor's daddy-in-law, Turgon. He's known for a long time Gondolin can't be stayed in forever and he gets as clear a warning as
seems possible that it's time to say "Hasta la vista, , baby" , but then (to quote Professor Harold Hill) "He dillies and he dallies."
__________________
Aure Entuluva! |
06-11-2005, 01:44 AM | #13 | |
Hauntress of the Havens
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: IN it, but not OF it
Posts: 2,538
|
Quote:
And not considering all the possibilities of your foes defeating you is a bad way to go, too. |
|
06-12-2005, 10:59 PM | #14 |
Doubting Dwimmerlaik
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Heaven's basement
Posts: 2,466
|
Have to put Manwë on the list.
Can never see Melkor for who he really is. Just how many times does Melkor have to destroy Aman/most of Arda/etc for Manwë to think, "ya know, this guy might not have good intentions...hmmm." Thinks it's a great idea to bring the elves to Aman for "safekeeping." That's funny, as it never was safe before nor afterwards. This, of course, leads to all sorts of other problems. Thankfully, he does show a little wisdom and doesn't bring Men to Aman. But sets up the Edain on Numenor, and, showing a deep understanding of human psychology, tells them that there is a place that they shall not go. There's nothing like a Ban to get Man curious. So when Man does break this law, what does he do? Calls on someone else to fix it. Luckily, as time passes, Manwë takes less and less of an active role and ME benefits from his choice of Istari, though the overall failure rate of that venture was 80%. If it weren't for sending eagles and Gandalf, not sure what good Manwë has done.
__________________
There is naught that you can do, other than to resist, with hope or without it.
|
04-11-2007, 11:52 PM | #15 | |||||||
Eagle of the Star
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Sarmisegethuza
Posts: 1,058
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
"May the wicked become good. May the good obtain peace. May the peaceful be freed from bonds. May the freed set others free." |
|||||||
04-12-2007, 04:22 AM | #16 | |
Shade of Carn Dûm
|
Quote:
A ring! How is anyone ever going to get a ring on the Dark Lord's finger off of him? Well, the Numenoreans. And Sauron had already killed off Numenor by sending them to make war to the Valar. If it wasn't for Eru saving the Faithful, the plan would be flawless! No-one would ever have the might to challenge him again! Mwahaha! hehe hee *cough* *cough* . . . |
|
04-12-2007, 07:25 AM | #17 | |
Loremaster of Annúminas
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,321
|
Quote:
|
|
04-12-2007, 07:32 AM | #18 |
Cryptic Aura
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 5,997
|
fools and their jewels
I'd say it was a pair of rulers.
Melian for thinking that a girdle could hold back the ravages of time, and Thingol for being the quintessential controlling, domineering, possessive dad. |
04-12-2007, 12:32 PM | #19 | |||
Doubting Dwimmerlaik
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Heaven's basement
Posts: 2,466
|
Quote:
Quote:
We're curious folk, and not knowing something gets our imaginations, then feet, in motion. The best way to keep my kids out of something is to hide it in plain site. Telling them not to go into a closet is a surefire way of getting them to open the door. Quote:
And note that Tulkas calls his brethren to fight Melkor as well.
__________________
There is naught that you can do, other than to resist, with hope or without it.
|
|||
04-12-2007, 12:47 PM | #20 |
A Voice That Gainsayeth
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: In that far land beyond the Sea
Posts: 7,431
|
Hey! What are you discussing here?
I think all the nominations here were quite silly. Not including Melkors and Manwës and I am just waiting for someone to say "Sauron because he let Frodo in Mordor", this is completely out of place... the examples you mentioned, they are all just pettifoggers. In case of many like Ar-Pharazon it was not foolishness but mainly arrogance, lust and, especially in case of Ar-Pharazon, I believe more than foolishness intentional denial of truth to himself. Denethor was defeatist, but not a fool. Eärnur was provoked - it was not foolishness, it was anger. Do you want to know one (and the only one that comes to my mind now) really foolish act in the very sense of the word, and the most foolish ruler of all?
My nomination is ORODRETH. That fool built a bridge to let Glaurung in. I have never seen any more foolish act. It is the very definition of foolishness and if you posted "fool" in the Word Association game and it would be on me, his name would follow. It was Túrin's idea, that's fact, so we could speculate whether it was his or Túrin's foolishness, but for the purposes of this thread I am speaking of the ruler, which is Orodreth. I could name them as "ruling duo". But I don't get why there was no one who named this thus far.
__________________
"Should the story say 'he ate bread,' the dramatic producer can only show 'a piece of bread' according to his taste or fancy, but the hearer of the story will think of bread in general and picture it in some form of his own." -On Fairy-Stories |
04-12-2007, 12:56 PM | #21 |
Pittodrie Poltergeist
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: trying to find that warm and winding lane again
Posts: 633
|
Isn't building bridges always a good thing? Turin and Orodreth just wanted easier transport, as long as they didn't charge tolls I don't see it being a bad thing or at least without the benefit of hindsight.
__________________
As Beren looked into her eyes within the shadows of her hair, The trembling starlight of the skies he saw there mirrored shimmering. |
04-12-2007, 12:57 PM | #22 | ||
Doubting Dwimmerlaik
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Heaven's basement
Posts: 2,466
|
Quote:
Does this put Father Durin on the list? Quote:
__________________
There is naught that you can do, other than to resist, with hope or without it.
|
||
04-12-2007, 01:01 PM | #23 | |
A Voice That Gainsayeth
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: In that far land beyond the Sea
Posts: 7,431
|
Quote:
__________________
"Should the story say 'he ate bread,' the dramatic producer can only show 'a piece of bread' according to his taste or fancy, but the hearer of the story will think of bread in general and picture it in some form of his own." -On Fairy-Stories |
|
04-12-2007, 01:09 PM | #24 | |
A Voice That Gainsayeth
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: In that far land beyond the Sea
Posts: 7,431
|
Quote:
Speaking of it... another good example of foolishness is Smaug, this does not actually fit with the topic, though he might be considered a "ruler" in his time ("The only King under the Mountain we know")... showing your chest to every Barrel-rider who comes around is certainly not a good idea...
__________________
"Should the story say 'he ate bread,' the dramatic producer can only show 'a piece of bread' according to his taste or fancy, but the hearer of the story will think of bread in general and picture it in some form of his own." -On Fairy-Stories |
|
04-12-2007, 02:57 PM | #25 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 274
|
Earnur gets my vote. Ruling Gondor should have been his priority
rather than answering Witch King challenges (especially since he had already been warned against this type of thing). RE: the Nargothrond bridge (I do hope I spelled that correctly) - was the bridge not Turin's idea so that he could wage the open warfare he preferred instead of using guerilla tactics as the elves had been doing? I know Orodreth was supposedly in charge but at the point the bridge was built Turin had acquired enough clout in the kingdom to have things done his way. Orodeth to me seems weak rather than foolish (or perhaps just unfortunate to have Hurin's son wander into his realm). |
04-12-2007, 03:04 PM | #26 | ||||
Eagle of the Star
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Sarmisegethuza
Posts: 1,058
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
"May the wicked become good. May the good obtain peace. May the peaceful be freed from bonds. May the freed set others free." |
||||
04-13-2007, 10:00 AM | #27 | ||||
Doubting Dwimmerlaik
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Heaven's basement
Posts: 2,466
|
Quote:
"Come to Aman, where it's always light and bright and no evil walks!" Evil did exist in Aman, though bound in chains. Elves were slain as a results, first by Melkor, which one could argue had already happened in the East, but then by each other, which was the greater evil. Would elves have gotten a taste for each other's blood had they never taken the road West? How would they have turned out had they not heeded the Call? And Manwe is guilty of false advertising, as night did fall in Aman. Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
There is naught that you can do, other than to resist, with hope or without it.
|
||||
04-13-2007, 11:21 AM | #28 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Muddy-earth
Posts: 1,297
|
The King of the Dead-Heads
The King of the Dead did his people no favours for refusing to lead them to war, he led them to thousands of years of limbo, waiting for the return of the Heir of the one that cursed them, he was a fool to waver so and seems like a pretty bad leader of men to me.
__________________
[B]THE LORD OF THE GRINS:THE ONE PARODY....A PARODY BETTER THAN THE RINGS OF POWER. |
04-13-2007, 02:31 PM | #29 | |||||
Eagle of the Star
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Sarmisegethuza
Posts: 1,058
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
"May the wicked become good. May the good obtain peace. May the peaceful be freed from bonds. May the freed set others free." |
|||||
04-13-2007, 04:30 PM | #30 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: I don't know. Eastern ME doesn't have maps.
Posts: 527
|
I'd have to say Sauron. From the start, he was nothing but a carbon-copy Melkor who was less potent at everything. Use of his powers is shown few and far between, and nothing of extreme strength is shown. Sauron proved to be incompetent when he wasted werewolves one by one and then struck at Luthien when Huan had dropped his guard, which is senseless due to the fact that Sauron took wolf form only to fight Huan. Rather than take the form of a troll to pry Huan off or become something to small to be bitten, Sauron becomes a snake and then surrenders. Pardon my language, but he completely became Luthien's and Huan's *****.
Afterwards, his plan with the Rings failed due to underestimating the elves' senses, and the dwarves being uncorrupted. Afterwards, he waged war and lost. Numenor defeated him again, and he was too blind to realize that Numenor was in danger of Eru's wrath, thus causing him to die again. Afterwards, he struck too soon and was defeated utterly. Finally, he was horribly arrogant regarding the One Ring and made horrible decisions based on his paranoia of the Ring being used against him by someone such as Aragorn. In the end, he died not in a struggle or a final blaze of glory, but by a lunatic tripping during his victory dance. It was as if Eru was saying "You don't even deserve a standard death."
__________________
"And forth went Morgoth, and he was halted by the elves. Then went Sauron, who was stopped by a dog and then aged men. Finally, there came the Witch-King, who destroyed Arnor, but nobody seems to remember that." -A History of Villains Last edited by The 1,000 Reader; 04-13-2007 at 04:35 PM. |
04-13-2007, 04:53 PM | #31 |
Odinic Wanderer
|
Turgon!
What a foolish elf he was. . . First he builds Vinyamar and settles there with his people, he is told to secretly build a new city. . .this must have been really tiresome work and it must have gone really slow as they could not just all march there and start building. That would surely have been discovered. When in Gondolin, because he does take proper security meassures his sister dies. . .He does not give order to pick up Hurin and so his location is discovered. But the thing that makes him so foolish is that he goes through all this trouble to please the Valar and then he does not see it through. . .that does not make sence. The his people have laboured in vain and not only does it make him foolish it also makes him selfish. His people died because he found Gondolin ever so pretty. |
04-15-2007, 12:54 AM | #32 |
Guest
Posts: n/a
|
most foolish ruler
Freca was a fool for going to Edoras out numbered many times and insulting the king in his own house, and maybe not so in other houses, but this was Helm.
If he really thought that Helm was so blind that he could not see through his power play, and then to react with a vieled threat, when he should have laughed along with the rest and then gave a speach about peace between Dunland and Rohan, and the prosperity that such a marriage might provide both kingdoms, an end to old grievances and new trade missions that would make them rich . . . I could have pulled it off, but then again I'm not fat, and I am more like Helm. |
Thread Tools | |
Display Modes | |
|
|