Luthien: Maia or Elf.

[narfforc]

If Luthien had never met Beren, should she have been given the choice of which kindred she belonged to like The Peredhil had?. The main problems are that Melian clothed herself in the flesh of Arda, in the form of an elf. Luthien was born of the body of Elf Melian, but what about her spirit, what was that?

[davem]

Luthien was born of the body of Elf Melian, but what about her spirit, what was that?

My initial thought is that fea is fea, & that it doesn't differ across 'species': ie, the 'fea' of Man, Elf or Valar/Maiar is of the same nature, but of greater or lesser power. The difference between the different 'species' is down to the 'relationship' of fea with hroa. For Valar, & Maiar generally (with obvious exceptions) hroa is an optional accessory. For Elves, it is a permanent state, to the extent that if their body dies they take on a new one exactly like the old. For Men the fea is only temporarily bound to the hroa.

So, the 'choice' of the peredhil does not involve a change in their fea but rather a change in the 'relationship' of their fea to their hroa: they can choose whether they will accept the inevitable future sundering of their fea from their hroa (ie die at some point & leave the circles of the world) or whether they will accept a permanent 'union' ('marriage', which none may put assunder??) with the stuff of Arda.

In the case of Luthien, I suppose that her choice would have been either to accept her father's state (permanent union of her fea with her hroa) or her mother's (optional union of the two as it suited her) but either way she would have been bound within the circles of the world, which only men could pass beyond.

Of course, not having my books with me, I could be completely wrong, so its probably best to ignore me....

[narfforc]

Thanks for that Davem. The thing I find strange is that when Luthien shows forth her power (Is it Elven, Maia or Hybrid). She defeats the mighty Sauron and sends the even more powerful Morgoth to sleep. I dont think any of the mighty elf-lords had such power, therefore Luthien was using something stronger than elf-magic for the want of a better word. If she chose to be Maia then she would not end up in the Halls of Mandos, but would be free to roam as her mother does, the Gardens of Lorien. If she chose to be an elf or of man, then to the Halls of Mandos she would go, as no doubt she did. So in that way the fea are different. All (non Ainur) are of the body of Arda, but the spirits come from The Flame Imperishable and their fates are sundered. None of The Ainur have died, their bodies may be destroyed, but Morgoth, Sauron and probably Saruman still exist outside, in the void. The spirits of Men, Elves and dwarves are treated differently, I may be wrong, but I do not know of any Maia dying and going to Mandos, where are The Valaraukar?.

SEE YOU IN BRUM.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Narfforc

If she chose to be an elf or of man, then to the Halls of Mandos she would go, as no doubt she did. So in that way the fea are different. All (non Ainur) are of the body of Arda, but the spirits come from The Flame Imperishable and their fates are sundered.

I suppose this is it - the nature of the union of spirit & matter. In Men the union must be broken at some point, in Elves is can never be broken while Arda lasts, in Valar/Maiar it is optional. But none of this means that the fea is different, only the nature of its union with the hroa.

If she chose to be an elf or of man, then to the Halls of Mandos she would go, as no doubt she did. So in that way the fea are different.

Certainly their destiny is different, but is their essence? But even then we know from Morgoth's fate that spending time in Mandos was not impossible for Ainur, it just tended not to happen to the others as they generally towed the party line sufficiently not to get thrown in the jug.

something stronger than elf-magic for the want of a better word.

Perhaps this 'power' has its source in the sana - ok, I don't know what I'm talking about here, as I've only read Osanwe Kenta properly once & skimmed iot a couple of times, but that's the only other possibility I can concieve for Luthien's power - its certainly not physical in origin, & I'm not sure it can be classed as 'spiritual' either. This leaves me with the possibility that magical power has a 'mental' source & origin.

So, Luthien's mind/will is the source of her power over Morgoth.......???????

LOOKING FORWARD TO IT

[Mithalwen]

I can't help wondering (and I know this is one of my pet hobby horses cf Music and Magic in Middle Earth ) if the fact that Luthien's power is manifested in song is important .

The world is created through music (simplification I know) and it is through song that Luthien charms both Morgoth and Mandos. Melian would have surely participated in the music of the Ainur and maybe something was passed on to Luthien. Finrod uses a "song of wizardry in his duel with Sauron"

Also bear in minds that Thingol was a mighty Elf Lord - one of the 3 Originals so to speak - to put it crudely the power of the elf lords seems to be diluted with each generation ( this is supported by the fact that elf parents put more of their own strength into their children and that consequently the larger families among them occured in the early years when they were at their peak). As a first generation descendant of an original elf lord, Luthien would be nigh on a par with Fingolfin and Feanor without the not inconsequential benefits of Melian as a mother.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

Also bear in minds that Thingol was a mighty Elf Lord - one of the 3 Originals so to speak - to put it crudely the power of the elf lords seems to be diluted with each generation ( this is supported by the fact that elf parents put more of their own strength into their children and that consequently the larger families among them occured in the early years when they were at their peak). As a first generation descendant of an original elf lord, Luthien would be nigh on a par with Fingolfin and Feanor without the not inconsequential benefits of Melian as a mother.

I don't know that Elf-power is diluted as the years go by. After all, it is pretty much apparent that Ingwe, Finwe, and Elwe were not Imin, Tata, and Enel because they could NOT have been First-Generation Elves. The Reason: Ingwe has a sibling (either Indis or her mother), and Elwe has at least two (Olwe and Elmo), as well as "kin" (Cirdan and Eol, according to some versions). Consequently, they cannot have been "first-generation", and thus your theory starts to totter.

Furthermore, the generation(s) of Elves that produced all of known big families were the generations living in the peace and bliss of the noontide of Valinor. It is stated by Tolkien that the Elves generally held off having children in times of danger or war. Note that while Finwe has four or five children, and over a dozen grandchildren (and a couple of great-grandchildren), his contemporary Elwe, who is living in the much more dangerous Middle-earth, has only one child. True, this could be partly a product of the fact that Elwe was married to a Maia, but his brother Elmo is also far behind Finwe in terms of progeny.

It is true that a previous generation of Elves would, by product of his/her longer life, have a greater store of knowledge than the next generation, but this is a result of a longer life than anything else. I would agree that at the end of the First Age, Gil-galad seems like a pretty timid little king compared with Fingolfin, Finrod, Turgon, Maedhros, etc., but at the Battle of the Last Alliance, he seems (in my eyes) to be every bit as great a king as Fingon in the Nirnaeth. Similarly, Elrond's wisdom at the end of the Third Age is reminiscent of Thingol's in the First.

[davem]

Random thoughts on Choice':

Could the choice of becoming mortal for an elf if they marry a mortal be due to the Christian idea that when a couple marry they become 'one flesh'. If the difference between the races is not due to differences in their fea but in the relationship of their fea to their hroa, then for the two to truly become 'one' flesh their natures must 'match'. So, as the 'gift' of Eru to Men (ie death) cannot be withdrawn (Tuor???), it would be necessary for the Elf to change the nature of the 'relationship' of their fea to their hroa & hence of their psycho-spiritual relationship with Arda itself.

I think this is possibly a central matter in Luthien's (& Idril & Arwen's) choice. Its not simply about not being seperated from their beloved when they die, but of their essential nature being changed. The next question that occurs is how this affects their relationship with their former families. Is it simply a matter of their seperation at death - 'loss eternal' - or is their more to it? Is there a sort of 'one flesh' relationship between the Elves of particular families? Does the 'Choice' involve almost a kind of spiritual 'divorce' from other members of the family which even during life, while the 'former' Elf & their family remain in Arda, results in a breaking of their intimacy? I wonder about the reason for Beren & Luthien, on their return into Arda, not going to live in Menegroth where they would surely (at first thought) have been welcome. Perhaps, if I'm right here, such a return would have been too painful for all concerned as the former intimacy between Thingol, Melian & Luthien would have been no more & what's more, they would have known it never could be again....

[Hot, crispy nice hobbit]

One can only speculate why Beren preferred life with Luthien to the Gift of Illuvator, afterall they only get to live again for a short while.

Apparently though, Melian remains a Maiar for the rest of her days, even when Thingol was slain.:

Thereafter Melian spoke to none save to Mablung only, bidding him take heed to the Silmaril, and to send word speedily to Beren and Luthien in Ossiriand; and she vanished out of Middle-earth, and passed to the land of the Valar beyond the western sea, to muse upon her sorrows in the gardens of Lorien, whence she came, and this tale speaks of her no more.

However, much more interesting is the fact that even before Melian left Doriath, her power was withdrawn:

But now Thingol lay dead, and his spirit had passed to the halls of Mandos; and with his death a change came also upon Melian. Thus it came to pass that her power was withdrawn in that time from the forests of Neldoreth and Region, and Esgalduin the enchanted river spoke with a different voice, and Doriath lay open to its enemies.

The questionable point here is whether Melian withdrew her power from the realm of her own free will. Perhaps the power of Melian to protect Doriath lay solely on her 'other part' which is her bond with Thingol? Or was it simply that Melian was finally resigned to the fact that Doriath was doomed to destruction? Whatever the reason, there is reason to believe that the 'spirit'/ fea, is the underlying source of power.

[burrahobbit]

Tolkien says "Eldar."

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Hot, crispy nice hobbit

Apparently though, Melian remains a Maiar for the rest of her days, even when Thingol was slain.

Melian was a Maia, Thingol an Elda. Though their relationship of fea to hroa is somewhat different, belonging as they do to their respective races, both are bound to Arda until the end of time. When the Ainur entered into Arda, they became bound up with it, and unable to leave it until all had ended in it, much as the Elves are bound to Arda until the end of time.

Because of this like nature, this ability to remain together until the end of time, there would not need to be any metaphysical-changing-of-nature in order for them to become bound to one another.

Yes, Melian remains a Maia and thus able to choose her form, but her lifespan is the same as Thingol's and a part of being able to choose her form means that she could choose the form of an incarnate woman, and in such form be incarnate in the same way as her spouse.

[burrahobbit]

she could choose the form of an incarnate woman, and in such form be incarnate in the same way as her spouse.

That is not true. She would be incarnate in a different way.

[Hot, crispy nice hobbit]

I came across this last night when I browsed through the UT:

"Men in Numenor are half-Elves (said Erendis), especially the high men; they are neither the one nor the other. The long life that they were granted deceives them, and they dally in the world, children in mind, until age finds them - and then many only forsake play out of doors for play in their houses..."

Okay... So Erendis, who was the estranged wife of Numenor King Aldarion was an ardent feminist. But other than teaching the lesson that leaving your spouse for ships is a bad idea, it seems to indicate that Half-Elves/Half-men are strangely mixed up: unfamiliar with the world they are borne into.

I ponder the prospect of Luthien living out her last days: Half-Maia/Half-Elf and finally fully Mortal. It is either the sweetest deal of them all, or the worst imaginable...

[burrahobbit]

Erendis was a bitter bitter woman (not a character flaw). When she says the Men of Numenor she means the Males. She sees them as being sort of Peter Pans of the West. In her eye (which is not far off) she sees this group of men that live a very long time and compared to her shorter life they do not ever have to become true responsible adults. She is looking for something derogatory to call them, she DOES NOT mean that they are in a special class of Half-Elves with such as Elrond (who as far as it matters was completely Elf).

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by Formendacil

I don't know that Elf-power is diluted as the years go by. After all, it is pretty much apparent that were not Imin, Tata, and Enel because they could NOT have been First-Generation Elves. The Reason: Ingwe has a sibling (either Indis or her mother), and Elwe has at least two (Olwe and Elmo), as well as "kin" (Cirdan and Eol, according to some versions). Consequently, they cannot have been "first-generation", and thus your theory starts to totter.

.

You misunderstand - I did not say that Ingwe, Finwe, and Elwe were first generation as in being "awoken" - although I would not necessarily regard the presence or absence of siblings as being a decisive factor since there are "brothers" among the Valar, and if Eru created them as brothers then there is no reason why he could or would not have created brothers among the first elves.
I cannot see that there is much to object to in my description of the aforementioned as "original elf lords", unless I have missed something in my reading of the Sil. Luthien is undeniably a first generation descendent of Thingol. So what I have said stands firm so far.

I did say it was a crude theory but surely it is a "truth universally acknowledged " that the Eldar were at their peak in the First Age? If I were going to make a hierachy of elf lords I can think of few sons I would place above their fathers. Of course birth in the blessed realm and the two trees is a factor. Galadriel is clearly the most inherently powerful elf in Middle Earth at the time of the War of the Ring.

As for the size of families - in HoME Tolkien states that Feanor was exceptional in having 7 children and that was the most ever, also that the strength of the parents is passed into the children.

But the main point which I was trying to make, is that Thingol was not exactly genetic garbage as a parent....

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

But the main point which I was trying to make, is that Thingol was not exactly genetic garbage as a parent....

Okay, the main point is taken, Thingol is certainly a top-notch elf.

However, I have to disagree with your assessment of the capabilities of the later-age Elves. As you have it, Elrond should not be nearly as potent as Galadriel, coming as he does three more generations down the line, but at the end of the Third Age he seems to be pretty much on par with her, if not exactly so.

Furthermore, I still stand by my assertation that Gil-galad was as great a king or greater than his First Age predecessors. (Certainly he had a MUCH longer and more successful reign). In addition, I would say that the kingdom of Eregion was every bit as successful and grand as Hithlum, Himring, Nargothrond (although not Gondolin). Certainly, the craft of the Elves was amazing. With the exception of Gondolin, I would say that the craft of the Elves SUPERCEDED that of the First Age Elves (although not the Valinorean pre-trees craft).

In addition, by trotting out Galadriel as evidence of greater strength, you are somewhat undermining your theory, as Galadriel is two generations down from Finwe (and both Finwe and her father had large families), and should not thus be listed (by Tolkien in his later life) as perhaps as great an elf as Feanor, if in totally different ways.

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by Formendacil

Okay, the main point is taken, Thingol is certainly a top-notch elf.

However, I have to disagree with your assessment of the capabilities of the later-age Elves. As you have it, Elrond should not be nearly as potent as Galadriel, coming as he does three more generations down the line, but at the end of the Third Age he seems to be pretty much on par with her, if not exactly so.

Furthermore, I still stand by my assertation that Gil-galad was as great a king or greater than his First Age predecessors. (Certainly he had a MUCH longer and more successful reign). In addition, I would say that the kingdom of Eregion was every bit as successful and grand as Hithlum, Himring, Nargothrond (although not Gondolin). Certainly, the craft of the Elves was amazing. With the exception of Gondolin, I would say that the craft of the Elves SUPERCEDED that of the First Age Elves (although not the Valinorean pre-trees craft).

In addition, by trotting out Galadriel as evidence of greater strength, you are somewhat undermining your theory, as Galadriel is two generations down from Finwe (and both Finwe and her father had large families), and should not thus be listed (by Tolkien in his later life) as perhaps as great an elf as Feanor, if in totally different ways.

Actually I would rank Elrond behind Galadriel in inherent power..... although he is my favourite character his power is more in wisdom than in this inherent power - "the power that is in him" as Gandalf says of Glorfindel - which is enough to drive all the Nazgul in to the Bruinen and is linked by Gandalf to his time in Valinor.

I certainly don't think that Eregion was better than Gondolin... or Gil Galad equal to Fingolfin. but certainly you are not obliged to agree with me.
The point about the larger families in the early elves is that they are at the height of their powers and have the desire, strength and confidence for them - tbe main reason Finwe remarried was for this purpose.

And re Galadriel - the argument you pin on me is, once again not the one I was making.

[HerenIstarion]

You both have good points and produce coherent chain of argument (and brought me much pleasure in reading it), but I can't help having a feeling you discuss a little without 'common point of compromise'. And can't help feeling there is not that much importance to the question at all

What is the scale you measure the 'power' against? Or what is 'power'?

According to dictionary:

Power: a (1) : ability to act or produce an effect

there is a wagonful of definitions to follow, we'll deal with them (not all, of course) later but for now, this will suffice. It seems to me, than, that in this respect, Elrond and Galadriel (and Celembrimbor and Samwise Gamgee's uncle Andy who was 'good with ropes'), are all equals. That is, if I seek exact effect, and have the means of producing it at my disposal, and produce it in an exact manner and mode I was after in my original design, my 'power' is as great as it may ever be with anyone else. So Gollum in his climbing ability is as 'powerful' as Feanor was in smithying etc.

The comparison may be made only if people are engaged in the same field. Say, it may be said that Feanor was greater smith than some Hobbiton smith was, and that also with a proviso - in case we know for sure that Feanor produced horse-shoes as well as palantiri, and shoes of his were objectively better than shoes produced by Hobbitn smith (given the same quality ore). But this does not work in case of kingdoms and efficacy of rulers (given that rulers all follow the same moral law) - for one (and that's enough), there are external factors which are absent in smithying.

Power 2 a : possession of control, authority, or influence over others

In this respect, those who possess such a control, or produce means of such a control, are the most powerful. But it seems a bit lop-sided a statistic. What would one do - count how much subjects Galadriel had, and if it is found that Lorien population exceeded that of Rivendell, she were more powerful, but if vice versa, Elrond was the tough guy than? Obviously, math will not help in this matter and mode of comparison. In this case, revolts (at a stretch) may serve as scale measure - i.e. if there were revolutions (given, again, same causing factors and same development pattern) of exact strength and the mode of how each particular ruler dealt with them would be the scale. But we have no revolutions in elven kingdoms save Nargothrond, and that was also rather coup d'etat brought about by external causes than revolution proper

Power 3 a : physical might b : mental or moral efficacy

Physical might is self explicable. (But who ever have seen Galadriel and Elrond kickboxing?)

For mental or moral efficacy, there is no scale of measure save direct encounter/duel either. As there were no exams or global tests for elven kings/queens in the sense 3b of the word 'power', I may now proceed to draw the conclusion:

There is hardly any, or no means whatsoever, of the 'power' test for elven lords, and, since there is also no point in such a comparison, the matter happily moves on to the sphere of personal tastes/likings/opinions

I would suggest than to substitute the word 'authority' for the word power, and define 'authority' as influence not over others, but over each other that elf lords exhibited. But in this case we also can not compare the authority of Elrond and Galadriel - being part of the council (i.e equals in status) they may have manifested their influence in turns. (We lack data - as it is, no minutes or proceedings of council sessions were preserved) For all we know, in a one event (Gandalf for President!), Galadriel lost rather than took over. Supposedly, to Elrond among others. But she may have won in other events. The only instance of saying 'who's the strongest' would have been that exact data of how much projects lobbied, say, by Elrond and impeded by Galadriel were approved of by the council on each contestants 'influence power' only (lacking other data, without other objective reasons, save for Elrond saying 'yes' and Galadriel saying 'no', or vice versa)

(Besides, some intstances of giving in to others may be a sign of not less, but of more 'power')

The most funny of all this post of mine is that such a substitution is also pointless. It would have been if we were comparing rivals, not allies. Say, Gandalf and Saruman, but since Elrond and Galadriel pursued same goal, exact amount of authority exhibited by each in the process of achieving it is of no importance

cheers

===========================================

Hear, hear!

Elfhood entrance examination announcement!

Elven power global test! School-leaving certificate! To be passed by all elves at the age of fifty!

• Test 1 (Physical prowess) Beat up the balrog two times out of three. (test is taken over two years, as there are many contestants and only one balrog (for equality's sake), and balrog has to be healed and rested before the new contestant comes to beat poor thing up)

• Test 2 (Mental efficacy) Outstare Sauron in the palantir and/or outsing him in an a cappella mode (no intstuments allowed)

• Test 3 (Creativeness) A) Architecture - Build underground mansions (dwarves may be employed, but should be paid for by the contestant) B) Applied arts - B.1 Create adornments out of precious metals (i.e. rings, necklaces, etc, special bonus if adornmnents have additional options of increasing mental efficacy, B.2 model sculptural images of plants B.3 Musical taste - create mental images with harps

• Test 4 (Applied technologies) - A) Global commubications - Create TV/satellite sets (artistic performance/aesthetics bring additional points - commission prefers spherical TV sets) B) Power engineering - create self-sufficient lighting units (i.e. silmarills, phials etc)

• Test 5 (Agriculture) - grow crops and flax

• Test 6 (Housewivery) - bake buns out of the crops you grew, weave coats and mats out of the flax, create carnival costumes out of natural materials (i.e. wolve hides, bat skins, own hair etc)

• Test 7 (Martial arts) - manage to stick the sword into the foot of Morgoth. The timetable similar to that of test 1

=========================================

[Formendacil]

Excellent points all, Heren_Istarion, but I feel it necessary to point out that I wasn't necessarily comparing Galadriel and, or saying that Elrond was the greater. Galadriel is, after all, accorded near-Feanor status near the end of Tolkien's life, and is certainly Elrond' peer. On the flip side, Elrond has his own areas of talent that seem to eclipse Galadriel: healing and lore in particular (as well as Maiar blood).

What I was arguing was not so much that Elrond was the equal of Galadriel, but that the later Elves were the equals of the earlier Elves (in middle-earth. Valinor fits only unfairly into the equation). As I was saying, there were exceptions to this rule (Gondolin is quite clearly the greatest Elven kingdom ever in middle-earth, and Doriath's possession of a Maia queen is unfair for defensive comparisoms), but in general, I think that the average 2nd/3rd Age Elf was pretty much the equal of the 1st Age Elf, that the inherent power in each Elf was NOT diminished over the generations, although perhaps the amount of progeny did.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Formendacil

What I was arguing was not so much that Elrond was the equal of Galadriel, but that the later Elves were the equals of the earlier Elves (in middle-earth. Valinor fits only unfairly into the equation). As I was saying, there were exceptions to this rule (Gondolin is quite clearly the greatest Elven kingdom ever in middle-earth, and Doriath's possession of a Maia queen is unfair for defensive comparisoms), but in general, I think that the average 2nd/3rd Age Elf was pretty much the equal of the 1st Age Elf, that the inherent power in each Elf was NOT diminished over the generations, although perhaps the amount of progeny did.

In seeking out a quote of Tolkien's for another thread I came across this. Its from Verlyn Flieger's book A Question of Time:

"In Elvish sentiment the 'future' was not one of hope or desire, but a decay & retrogression from former bliss & power. Though inevitably it lay 'ahead', as of one on a journey, "looking forward" did not implyanticipation of delight. "I look forward to seeing you again" did not mean or imply "I wish to see you again, & since that is arranged/& or very likely, I am pleased". It meant simply "I expect to see you againwith the certainty of foresight(in some circumstances) or regard that as very probable - it might be with fear or dislike, 'foreboding'" Their position , as of latter day sentiment was of exiles driven forward (against their will) who were in mind or actual position ever looking backwards".

Flieger interprets -

"Tolkien's Elves, who, facing toward their past, are 'backed' into the future by those who follow. Men are 'proceeding' into the future, while Elves are 'receeding' into it."

Now, while this doesn't speak to any 'objective facts' about the power of Second/Third Age Elves in Middle earth as opposed to their First Age counterparts, it does speak to their own feelings about & assessment of themselves. Clearly the Elves of later Ages felt that they were 'lesser' beings, being 'driven' forward in time, away from the time& place of their true greatness.

Certainly the Elves of the Third Age look back with regret to the earlier ages, but then that was always a tendency of Elves almost from the beginning. The past was always better for them, change is always & inevitably change for the worse. Even at the end of the Third Age when they are leaving Middle earth they speak not so much of going to the West as of going back. They are stepping out of Men's way, so that they no longer hold them back, but also so that they themselves are no longer pushed forward (in Time) & away from not only where they desire to be (the 'perfect', if idealised, past), but away also from what they had been.

As I said, this doesn't mean that the Elves of the later Ages were lesser beings than their ancestors, but it does imply that they believed they were. I think this was inevitable, given their tendency to seek to 'preserve' (or 'embalm' to use Tolkien's term) as much of what they had, & to recreate as much as they could of what they had lost. So, even if Gil-Galad was as great as some of his predecessors, I doubt very much he would have believed it himself.

So, would this 'self-doubt', this sense of their being 'lesser children of greater sires' which seems to be the mindset of the Elves of LotR, have affected them in any way? Would it have lead them to doubt themselves to such an extent that they didn't actually achieve what they could have done - did it have the effect of 'depressing' their will & strength, their innate 'power'? Certainly on my first reading of LotR I did wonder why these 'superbeings' didn't get more involved. Maybe for all their 'equality' in power (if they were equal) with their ancestors they were less powerful in practical terms, because they just didn't believe in themselves...

Originally Posted by narfforc

If Luthien had never met Beren, should she have been given the choice of which kindred she belonged to like The Peredhil had?. The main problems are that Melian clothed herself in the flesh of Arda, in the form of an elf. Luthien was born of the body of Elf Melian, but what about her spirit, what was that?

I will go and commune with Mandos. Perhaps he shall reveal it to us.

[narfforc]

I have always considered Luthien to be the greatest elf/non-elf to have ever existed, I believe her bloodline to be responsible for the good that survives the fall.

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by davem

As I said, this doesn't mean that the Elves of the later Ages were lesser beings than their ancestors, but it does imply that they believed they were.

It is apparent from the Athrabeth that elves do diminish in status while in Arda

- That I can well believe, said Finrod: that your bodies suffer in some measure the malice of Melkor. For you live in Arda Marred, as do we, and all the matter of Arda was tainted by him, before ye or we came forth and drew our hroar and their sustenance therefrom: all save only maybe Aman before he came there. For know, it is not otherwise with the Quendi themselves: their health and stature is diminished. Already those of us who dwell in Middle-earth, and even we who have returned to it, find that the change of their bodies is swifter than in the beginning.

[The 1,000 Reader]

Originally Posted by narfforc

The thing I find strange is that when Luthien shows forth her power (Is it Elven, Maia or Hybrid). She defeats the mighty Sauron and sends the even more powerful Morgoth to sleep.

While she did put Morgoth to sleep, she just brushed her cloak in Sauron's face and Huan attacked. Regardless though, it was her actions that influenced Morgoth's loss of a Silmaril and Sauron's descent to being Huan's *****.

Originally Posted by narfforc

None of The Ainur have died, their bodies may be destroyed, but Morgoth, Sauron and probably Saruman still exist outside, in the void.

While Saruman might be sticking around as a spirit, Sauron seems to have diminished past that to a state of being "dust in the wind," so to speak. Morgoth seems to have been totally obliterated when the world was remade in the very end.

I've always seen Luthien as a very powerful elf who was skilled with her strength.