Is The Silmarillion a "downer"

[Tuor of Gondolin]

A view of The Silmarillion, and, it seems, one shared by JRRT, is that it is a generally depressing work. For example, in "Letters" #247 he says:

...many of the older legends are purely 'mythological', and nearly all are grim and tragic: a long account of the disasters that destroyed the beauty of the Ancient World, from the darkening of Valinor to the downfall of Numenor and the flight of Elendil.

Yet I think a case can be made for The Silmarillion being generally positive in many of its stories and philosophical underpinings.
For some: The Tale of Beren and Luthien, Tuor (with amplification in UT),
the influence of the elves in turning back Morgoth from a quick domination (except for Doriath) of Beleriand, the necessary time gained by the exiles
presence for Men and Elves to interact culturally and politically, the half-elven, etc.

While The Silmarillion has elements of Greek tragedy, there is also always
present the striving and hoping , by many elves and men, for a
"redemption" of their increasingly hazardous situation, and one that is
eventually realized.

So, how do you view The Silmarillion, as a depressing work, an essentially hopeful
tale, or in some other way? With the exception of Hurin and his family, are the tales all that depressing? They seem to me to be a mix, especially with the tragic, ambivalent figure of Maedhros.

[Lush]

Mmmm.

The Silmarillion depressed me the way memories sometimes do when they conjure up people and places lost in time. But even so, this so-called depression was bittersweet, and not unsatisfying.

I would attribute it not the occurences in the plot, although there are a few real "downers" naturally, but to the tone of the work: elegaic, mournful. The Silmarillion is a history and a myth that you become emotionally involved with in spite of the distance placed between you and the characters. It's uncanny, really.

It's both depressing and hopeful, that's for sure, but in such a powerful way that it left me shaking after the first time I read it.

[Turin]

I don't think that The Sil is depressing. Of course it is sad, tragic and moving, but there is also an element that Tolkien himself alluded to and, indeed, expanded upon: this was his concept of the "euchacatastrophe". Amidst all the tragedy and loss, there is a final hope that materialises: Earendil finds Valinor and the Valar and their people overcome (finally) the might of Morgoth - just as he seems destined to overrun all of Beleriand.

I can't remember the exact quote from LoTR but there is something about how "evil sometimes is good to have been".

[A_Brandybuck]

I do not find the Silmarillion very depressing. Many of the stories in it have a good ending like the story of Beren and Luthien, who got it, that Morgoth must accept a bitter defeat, because of loosing one Silmaril. And the story of Tuor is not that depressing for me, because of the sequel in Form of Earendil.
But the most important point is that I know the good ending of the First Age and the other Ages. Knowing that little defeats leads nevertheless to the good end of the defeat of Morgoth makes me not very depressed. Sadly I forgot, whether I felt depressed as I first read the Silmarillion.

I find the ending of Lord of the Rings much more depressing. It is very depressing to see the Elves leaving. Leaving a world and to know, that they will never come back. To know, that there will never be such a glory how the Silmarillion it describes. Sure there are Men, too. But the main-view is on the Elves.
The Elves are fading and that depresses me...
(And it seems to me, that I am not alone, Tolkien describes his reasons, why he aborted a sequel to Lord of the Rings in a similar way)

But the Silmarillion is very responsible for that feeling, I think, that I would not feel in that depressed way at the end of Lord of the Rings, if I haven't read the Silmarillion.
So I can say, that the Silamrillion is responsible, that the end of Lord of the Rings is a "downer". ;-)

[Essex]

on A-Brandybuck's point re lotr

But the main-view is on the Elves. The Elves are fading and that depresses me...

For me, the Silmarillion shows that NO ONE is perfect, far from it the Elves. I seem to take a lower view of how 'great' and good the Elves are from reading the Silmarillion. I find many of them be, at times, vindictive, childish, power grabbing beings. Why they get such a good press is beyond me.......

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

I don't really take much notice of 'redemption' or 'hope' in The Silmarillion. It's a very sad book and I love it for that.

There is a huge difference betwixt 'sad' and 'depressing'.

[narfforc]

Yes I agree generally that The Silmarillion is dark and depressing, yet in other ways it has moments of shining light, think of these things;-

1. The all conquering love between Beren and Luthien.

2. The Loyalty of Finrod to the kin of Barahir.

3. The sacrifice of Hurin, for the sake of the future.

4. Fingon`s rescue of his friend Maedhros.

5. Beleg`s rescue of Turin.

Behind all the death and destruction, is a theme of Love, Loyalty, Devotion and Bravery. How many people reading this would die to save a friend, how many people would give up everything, so that this world could be saved. Tolkien knew many such people, he fought beside them in the trenches. There is nothing greater in Tolkiens works than his portrayal of The Noble Spirit, to defy evil at all costs, surely we can see the good in that message. Yes The Silmarillion is sad in most places, yet when I read the heroics I feel my heart burst, just like at The Ride of The Rohirrim at The Battle of The Pelennor Fields.

[Formendacil]

The Silmarillion is tragic, but I would not say that it is hopeless. It's reminiscent of Gandalf's line somewhere in the Lord of the Rings about "fighting the long defeat" and how it is not for them to turn back all the tides of evil.

With the rebellion of Melkor, evil became inevitable. It must be fought again and again. And the Silmarillion is the documentation of one of the greatest and most dramatic fights against it.

Ultimately, evil cannot be defeated by force of arms (as in the Lord of the Rings). It can only be defeated temporarily, and that at a cost to those fighting it.

But it must be fought.

That is the message I read out of Tolkien's works, that it is necessary to fight evil, that it is necessary to strive for a better world. Even though we cannot defeat it utterly, we can turn back the tide, and enjoy a brief period of peace, until we finally come to Dagor Dagorath.

It is right and good to resist evil, and we will be rewarded for in the afterlife to come. Turin Turambar is an excellent example of that. His entire life was a useless struggle against evil, but his post-death reward is consistently rumoured to be great. Should not equally great rewards await Finrod, Beren, Thingol, Luthien, Turgon, and others who fought the great fight?

Like the destruction of the Ring, it would seem only a fool's hope, but like the destruction of the Ring, it is ultimately triumphant.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Formendacil

It is right and good to resist evil, and we will be rewarded for in the afterlife to come. Turin Turambar is an excellent example of that. His entire life was a useless struggle against evil, but his post-death reward is consistently rumoured to be great. Should not equally great rewards await Finrod, Beren, Thingol, Luthien, Turgon, and others who fought the great fight?

Was Turin rewarded? Is that documented somewhere? Wasn't he human (the Travelers) in that he left the confines of the world or something upon death? I would note that Turin's life was one bad day after another; however, he made some poor choices that made the bad worse.

I think that in the Sil what Tolkien was trying to say was that we are all fighting the long defeat and cannot 'win' without divine intervention (Christianity?). Each age starts with promise and hope, yet the 'beings' therein (Elves, Men) fall into the same old ruts, requiring a big battle/intervention to set things aright again. Each age starts a little more removed from Paradise where both 'good' and 'evil' are diluted down a bit so that you can eventually arrive at our present age where the difference between orcs and men is determined by actions, not looks.

Anyway, I didn't think that the Sil was depressing and agree that it might be a bit sad though punctuated with hope, beauty and inspiration. And if you regard the Sil as history, then it might make sense to only read about the big bad stuff as the pleasant day to day peace was a lot less interesting (Feanor's journal entry, Day 223 in Valinor - spent day staring at Two Trees, fell asleep...)

[A_Brandybuck]

Originally Posted by alatar

Was Turin rewarded? Is that documented somewhere? Wasn't he human (the Travelers) in that he left the confines of the world or something upon death? I would note that Turin's life was one bad day after another; however, he made some poor choices that made the bad worse.

Indirectly! But he could his plaguer face again in the Last Battle! That should be reward enough. ;-)

Originally Posted by HoME, The Shaping of Middle-Earth

Then shall the last battle be gathered on the fields of Valinor. In that day Tulkas shall strive with Melko, and on his right shall stand Fionwe and on his left Turin Turambar, son of Hurin, Conqueror of Fate,(7) and it shall be the black sword of Turin that deals unto Melko his death and final end; and so shall the children of Hurin and all Men be avenged.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by A_Brandybuck

Indirectly! But he could his plaguer face again in the Last Battle! That should be reward enough. ;-)

No car, no vacation to the shores of Belfalas, no date with an Elvish princess...just more work work work! The man definitely needs a day off.

I believe that the Silmarillion was not only written to entertain but also to further explain the troubles in Middle Earth in the Third Age

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Ingwe

I believe that the Silmarillion was not only written to entertain but also to further explain the troubles in Middle Earth in the Third Age

That isn't strictly true, by any means. What you say might explain the Appendices or parts of Unfinished Tales, but the Silmarillion pre-dates the Lord of the Rings by twenty years. And in Tolkien's mind, it was his primary work, which got caught up by association with the world of the Hobbit, thus producing the Lord of the Rings. Quite apart from being an explanation of our beloved novel, it was a source-work.

[Kuruharan]

no date with an Elvish princess

Turin could have married an Elvish princess if he'd wanted.

Maybe that was his entire problem, he was just a workaholic.

[Aiwendil]

A_Brandybuck wrote:

Indirectly! But he could his plaguer face again in the Last Battle! That should be reward enough.

At least up until the 1937 Silmarillion, anyway. Remember that later the myth of his return was altered so that he returns not at the end of the world but rather at the end of the First Age, replacing Earendil as the slayer of Ancalagon - but this change was never actually worked into any Silmarillion text.

The Last Battle, the Dagor Dagorath, however, seems to have survived in some form to the end of Tolkien's life, for it is mentioned in a fragment of alliterative verse on the Istari (found in UT) that probably dates from 1972. I think that this enduring aspect of the mythology is perhaps more important than it is sometimes thought; apart from the earliest "Sketch of the Mythology", all texts in the Silmarillion tradition (as distinct from the Annalistic tradition) end with something regarding the last battle. And it is not just a battle - it is the final defeat of Melkor/Morgoth, the restoration of the Trees, and (in the language of the '50s metaphysical writings) the beginning of Arda Remade. There is thus a profoundly important manifestation of hope that did not make it into the published Silmarillion at all.

Quite apart from this, though, I do not find the Quenta Silmarillion on the whole to be especially tragic or depressing. There is certainly much tragedy in it, and many of its component stories could be called tragedies (particularly the Turin saga and the Ruin of Doriath). But it does, after all, have a happy ending - the Valar are moved to pity; Morgoth is overthrown; the Noldor are forgiven; the Edain are rewarded. We have here what I would call the quintessential Tolkienian eucatastrophe. It is, to be sure, no more a simplisticly happy ending than the ending of LotR; but it is happy nonetheless. Real tragedies don't end with the good guys winning.

[Tuor of Gondolin]

My view of The Silmarillion is not unlike that of Aiwindil, it seems to "end" on a generally positive note, including "justice" for the sons of Feanor, with the sad
final inability of maglor to get Maedhros to stop their efforts to get the Silmarils.

And, as was observed above, it is interesting that the Silmarillion ending is
really more upbeat then LOTR's.

Which is why I find all the more curious Tolkien's portrayal of The Silmarillion.

[drigel]

For me (and already noted above), the Silm's themes that are touched upon are wrapped around the Fall from grace, and the Loss of perfection. First with the Vala, then trickling down to all other sentient beings. Tragic enough, yet compelling to account the Heroics in which the players engage in. Men (IMO) is where the optimistism turns it around. Grim work yes - from the very beginning men find themselves on an already dirty battlefield. Here we find another tragedy: the beginning of the end for the elves. But in the second born we see Hope.

As in most Heroic sagas, Tragedy and Heroism are mutual partners. You cant have one without the other.