The Valar

I noticed that some people call the Valar "gods". I disagree, and I want to know what you think. I did a little research and this is what I found:
(found these in the back of the Silmarillionin the Index of Names)
Valar

Valar'Those with Powers' (singular Vala; given to tose great Ainur who entered Eä at the beginning of Time, and assumed the functionof gaurding and governing Arda.

Ainur

Ainur 'The Holy Ones' (singular Ainu; the first beings created by Ilúvatar, the 'order' of the Valar and Maiar, made before Eä.

Maiar

Maiar Ainur of lesser degree than the Valar (singular Maia

Ilúvatar

Ilúvatar 'Father of All', Eru

Eru

Eru 'The One', 'He that is Alone': Ilúvatar.

I would like to know your opinion on this.

[Iarwain]

Funny that you just gave those definitions without realizing that it was Tolkien himself who originally called the Valar "gods". [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] In fact, I often like to look at the strong similarities between the Valar and the gods of Greek and Norse mythology. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Iarwain

P.S. By the way, welcome to the Downs, and I'd like to wish you a happy death and a wonderful posting experience! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

[ April 04, 2003: Message edited by: Iarwain ]

[ April 05, 2003: Message edited by: Iarwain ]

Oh. Could you tell me where to find the place that he called the Valar "gods". I would like to take a look.

[Morwen Tindomerel]

Book of Lost Tales I and II, and I think the 'G' word comes up a time or two in the later HoME books. And just wait until you meet the *Children of the Gods*! [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Seriously though, you weren't entirely wrong. Tolkien himself moved very far from the original 'pagan god' concept in his depiction of the Valar. He certainly makes it very clear they are creatures of and subject to Iluvatar.

[Silmarien]

I think JRRT also said later that they weren't god's just sometimes viewed that way by lesser races. And the good ones never set themselves up like gods.

[the phantom]

Here's a nice quote from the Sil....

For Elves and Men are the Children of Iluvatar; and since they understood not fully that theme by which the Children entered into the Music, none of the Ainur dared to add anything to their fashion. For which reason the Valar are to these kindreds rather their elders and their chieftains than their masters..

[Iarwain]

I'll have the direct quotation momentarily...

Not much, but here it is:

Of the Valar

The Great among these spirits the Elves name the Valar, the Powers of Arda, and Men have often called them gods. The Lords of the Valar are seven; and the Valier, the Queens of the Valar, are seven also. These were their names in the Elvish tongue as it was spoken in Valinor, though they have other names in the speech of the Elves in Middle-earth, and their names among Men are manifold.

oh, and this one too:

Below them lay the woods of Oromë, and westward shimmered the fields and pastures of Yavanna, gold beneath the tall wheat of the gods. Bat Melkor looked north, and saw afar the shining plain, and the silver domes of Valmar gleaming in the mingling of the lights of Telperion and Laurelin.

and

(Bereg speaking) "Thither we cannot come where the gods dwell in bliss. Save one; for the Lord of the Dark is here before us, and the Eldar, wise but fell, who make endless war upon him. In the North he dwells, they say; and there is the pain and death from which we fled. We will not go that way."

That's all for the Silmarillion, there are probably more in the UT...

Iarwain

[ April 04, 2003: Message edited by: Iarwain ]

[Bruce MacCulloch]

Professor Tolkien himself does refer to the Valar as gods, however he makes it quite clear that is not in the same sense as the gods of ancient mythology as objects of worship. Rather they are in the same class as the gods in C.S. Lewis's Cosmic Trilogy, intermediate Powers of an angelic order that have been assigned the care and keeping of the world.

From The Letters of J.R.R. Tokien:

The cycles begin with a cosmogonical myth: the Music of the Ainur. God and the Valar (or powers: Englished as gods) are revealed. These latter are as we should say angelic powers, whose function is to exercise delegated authority in their spheres (of rule and government, not creation, making or re-making). They are 'divine', that is, were originally 'outside' and existed 'before' the making of the world. Their power and wisdom is derived from their Knowledge of the cosmogonical drama, which they perceived first as a drama (that is as in a fashion we perceive a story composed by some-one else), and later as a 'reality'. On the side of mere narrative device, this is, of course, meant to provide beings of the same order of beauty, power, and majesty as the 'gods' of higher mythology, which can yet be accepted – well, shall we say baldly, by a mind that believes in the Blessed Trinity.

As for 'whose authority decides these things?' The immediate 'authorities' are the Valar (the Powers or Authorities): the 'gods'. But they are only created spirits – of high angelic order we should say, with their attendant lesser angels – reverend, therefore, but not worshipful ; and though potently 'subcreative', and resident on Earth to which they are bound by love, having assisted in its making and ordering, they cannot by their own will alter any fundamental provision.

Referring to the Men of Numenor and their descendants:

They thus escaped from 'religion' in a pagan sense, into a pure monotheist world, in which all things and beings and powers that might seem worshipful were not to be worshipped, not even the gods (the Valar), being only creatures of the One.

Concerning the status of the Valar in comparison to the Children of Eru:

It is, I should say, a 'monotheistic but "sub-creational" mythology'. There is no embodiment of the One, of God, who indeed remains remote, outside the World, and only directly accessible to the Valar or Rulers. These take the place of the 'gods', but are created spirits, or those of the primary creation who by their own will have entered into the world. But the One retains all ultimate authority, and (or so it seems as viewed in serial time) reserves the right to intrude the finger of God into the story: that is to produce realities which could not be deduced even from a complete knowledge of the previous past, but which being real become part of the effective past for all subsequent time (a possible definition of a 'miracle'). According to the fable Elves and Men were the first of these intrusions, made indeed while the 'story' was still only a story and not 'realized' ; they were not therefore in any sense conceived or made by the gods, the Valar, and were called the Eruhíni or 'Children of God', and were for the Valar an incalculable element: that is they were rational creatures of free will in regard to God, of the same historical rank as the Valar, though of far smaller spiritual and intellectual power and status.

[ April 05, 2003: Message edited by: Bruce MacCulloch ]

[Iarwain]

Very true, but one can't help but make the comparison between the Valar and ancient mythologies. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]


Iarwain

The Great among these spirits the Elves name the Valar, the Powers of Arda, and Men have often called them gods.

1) Just because Men sometimes call them gods does not mean that they are.
2) In this sentence it say "among these spirits" not gods.

FROM A LETTER BY J.R.R. TOLKIEN
TO MILTON WALDMAN, 1951

The cycles begin with a cosmogonical myth: The Music of the Ainur. God and the Valar(or powers:Englished as gods) are revealed. These latter are as we should say angelic powers, whose function is to excercise delegated authority in their spheres (of rule and government, not creation, making or re-making). They are 'divine', that is, were originally 'outside' and existed 'before' the making of the world. Their power and wisdom is derived from their Knowledge of the cosmogonical drama, which they perceived first as a drama (that is as in a fashion we perceive a story composed by someone else), and later as a 'reality'. On the side of mere narrative device, this is , of course, meant to provide beings of the same order of beaty, power, and majesty as teh 'gods' of higher mythology, which can yet be accepted- well, shall we say baldly, by a mind that believes in the Blessed Trinity.

In this Tolkien said God AND the Valar.
Also he said that the Valar are angelic powers(Angels).

They must not set foot on 'immortal' lands, and so become enamoured of an immortality (within the world), which was against their law, the special doom or gift of Ilúvatar (God), and which their nature could not in fact endure.

In this Tolkien calls Ilúvatar God. If Ilúvatar is the same as Eru, and Eru means 'The One','He That is Alone' how can the Valar be 'gods'?

[Iarwain]

Ok. Here it is. When the people you saw refering to the Valar called them "gods" they did not (unless I am mistaken) mean that they were actually gods. It was probably the use of "gods" as a variable term for Valar. When I said, responding to your first statement that Tolkien called them "gods", I was not saying that Tolkien intended them to be omnipotent beings or that they were the supreme rulers of Arda. It is a mere term that people like to use simply because they can. Tolkien was saying that men had a misconception of the power of the Valar, and called them "gods", not having a full understanding of their natures.

Iarwain

P.S. The Greeks, by the way, did not believe their "gods" to have lived forever. Thus, the gods were not fully supreme. The Universe produced them, and the universe could destroy them as it would.

P.P.S. I suppose I haven't stressed enough that my comparison of the Valar and the dieties of Greek/Norse mythologies is just for personal amusement. Though, once upon a time I thought there was a big significance there, I have learned better since and now realize that Tolkien's brand of mythology is much more developed than the others.

[ April 05, 2003: Message edited by: Iarwain ]

[ April 05, 2003: Message edited by: Iarwain ]

[Legolas]

Thread Deed

Title: 'The Valar'

Owned by: Bruce MacCulloch

[Noxomanus]

I allways feel uncomfortable with the God-thing.Probably because I'm a great anti-theologic myself,being absolutely convinced of evolution. I know Tolkien was a firm believer and that it isn't for me to change anything but I prefer to do away with Eru all together,have the Ainur as extraterrestrial "creatures of energy" devoting themselves to create a paradise on Arda,and have all the races evolve naturally or being bred(Orcs) by the Ainur.

[Legolas]

Having trouble believing in 'real' God(s) is one thing, but why try to remove them from a story so that it coincides with your personal beliefs? It's a created world - whether Eru or Tolkien is the creator, after all.

[Iarwain]

Ahem, It sounds like someone is in a bit of denial...

Anyway, its quite extreme to hold yourself up against an idea so much that you cannot even stand the montion of it. Well, I will never understand how the idea of evolution is satisfactory the question of man's origin. For now, let's leave Tolkien as Tolkien, and be happy that he graced us with these literary works without wanting to change them.

Iarwain

[Noxomanus]

Never said i wanted to do away with,only that I don't like that overall idea and explaining it to other people,since it isnt conform with my own beliefs.It really isn't something Im laying awake for at night.Just a thing on my mind.I'm not interfering at all.

[Iarwain]

Hm. I could discuss this subject for hours and hours (and loose my posting priveleges in the meantime), but I'm sure you wouldn't like to be bombarded by my analysis of your situation [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] If I post any further I'll probably be on the verge of that discussion, so I'll stop here.

Iarwain

[ April 06, 2003: Message edited by: Iarwain ]

[Son of Fire]

Well, as a born again believer, I alway saw Eru Lluvatar as God, Yaweh, El Shaddai, Jehove, etc. the creator of all. To me, (as is possible with Tolkien, also a born again believer), the vala seem to be archangels like Lucifer:melkor, and many others like Michael, Gabriel, etc. The number 7 is also a number oft used in the Bible. I also saw the Maiar as lesser angels, like normal angels. I do have reasons, but that would take pages and pages, so i will spare you the rhetoric. The silmarillion is at least in the beginning, very similar to Genesis (as well as other parts of the Bible that are concerned with angels. Anyway, don't mess in the affairs of dragons, because you are good crispy with ketchup!

[Legolas]

the vala seem to be archangels like Lucifer:melkor, and many others like Michael, Gabriel, etc.

How many more archangels are there? [img]smilies/cool.gif[/img]

[Son of Fire]

Raphael: God has healed or Healer of God
Gabriel: God is my strength; God is mighty; man of God; the strength of God
Michael: Who is like God? (the battle cry of the heaven forces during the uprising)
Uriel: "Fire of God," "Flame of God," "Light of God," or even "Sun of God."
Now, i know that there must be more, but i don't worship angels, so I don't know any more. The analogy on my part might fall apart a little, or not, but I'm sure that there were more than that. Also, there are most likely more than that as I said, and the analogy could keep going. Anyway, just the way that they are right under Eru Lluvatar, and one of their number tried to become God and turned into satan. Anyway, just the musings of a believer. I had to look up a lot of those though, i only knew Michael and Gabriel, the ones in my Bible, oh, and lucifer, but we know who that is [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img] . PEACE OUT [img]smilies/cool.gif[/img]

I too am a Born again Christian. But I don't think Tolkien inteded it to be viewed as God
and angels from the Bible, so much as a story like Norse or Greek mytholgy. But it is very similar, and I can't help but viewing Iluvitar as God, and the Valar as his angels.

[ April 07, 2003: Message edited by: Wowbagger the Infinitely Prolonged ]

[Morwen Tindomerel]

Let's face it, the Valar were a right bunch of gits! I mean just look at their record:

Begining with their decision to remove themselves from Middle Earth into the West rather than stay put and fight Melkor. Yes an all out war would have been tremendously destructive and endangered the coming Children of Iluvatar, (like leaving Melkor in power didn't?) but a siege or cold
war-like opposition could have kept him in bounds. Instead they run away, leaving Middle Earth to him entirely.

I get the impression that the Valar, and later the Elves, find it difficult to live in a state of permanent strife and so basically they wimp out. Fine Guardians.

The next big mistake was when they decided Middle Earth, tainted by Melkor's creatures even after he himself was imprisoned, was too dangerous for the
Elves and brought them to Aman where they could be protected.

This was a genuinely tragic error that did
permanent damage to the Elves. Deprived of true challenge and of the freedom to explore and devolop in their own way they will now never achieve their full potential but are condemned to be permanent Valar knock offs. Worse still, by removing them from the life of Middle Earth it was the Valar themselves who doomed the Elves to eventual 'fading'.

Their next big mistake was accepting Melkor's pretended repentence and releasing him on parole. Actually I kind of sympathize with this one. Melkor had after all once been their friend and brother naturally they wanted to believe he'd seen the error
of his ways. In any case justice demanded he be given a second chance. However the Valar were unbelievably slow to trace the growing tensions between themselves and the Noldor, and within the tribe itself, to his influence.

Their relations with Men were disastrous from the get go:

After the poisoning of the Trees and the revolt of the Noldor the Valar seem to have gone into a blue funk. Clearly they realized they'd messed up bad - how bad becoming more and more apparent the longer they thought about it. Either they were sulking or they
were afraid to do anything for fear of further mistakes, (Okay they made the sun and the moon and those at least were good moves.)

So Men awoke into a world dominated by Morgoth and his creatures and were left entirely to their own devices recieving neither protection nor guidance from the Valar. Even so there were those who rejected evil and learning from the Dark Elves of 'Gods' in the West went off to seek them. Only to learn when they got to Beleriand that the 'Gods' were over the sea and no
longer took an interest in the affairs of Middle Earth.

Mankind's reaction to this sorry state of affairs ranged from Turin Turambar's bitter counter-rejection of the Valar to Earendil's bull headed determination to *make* them listen to him. And it put a permanent crimp in our trust of the Guardians which may have
been providential, (considering their record to date).

After the final defeat of Morgoth the Valar, suffering from a severe and well merited attack of guilt, did everything they could to make up for their previous neglect of Men. Unfortunately their decision to give the Edain a new home removed from the perils
of Middle Earth clearly demonstrates that while they knew they'd messed up they still had no clue as to how.

Mankind was saved from the fate of the Elves by our own nature; our mortality made impossible for us to live in Aman under the eyes and thumbs of the Valar enabling the Numenoreans to develop in their own way
influenced but not controlled by either Valar or Elves and our own restlessness sent us back to Middle Earth as soon as the challenge of building a new realm had
been met so we were not divorced from the Time and the Life of the World as the Elves were

The Ban of the Valar, (against sailing West) demonstrates the Guardians' total cluelessness about human nature. We are the last people in Arda to submit to arbitrarily imposed limitations and the best way to make us want something is to say we can't have it, (I don't think they understand Elves as well as they think they do either).

Well we all know what that mistake led to, the Downfall of Numenor, (not that it wasn't the Numenoreans own fault too). Personally I've always found it fascinating that the Valar, who took on and defeated Morgoth and his legions of creatures, are so
panicked by an Armada of Mortal Men they call on Eru to defend them. Of course a beneficial side effect was to send the Numenoreans back to Middle Earth where they belonged.

Possibly Eru had a little heart to heart with Manwe at the same time because after the 'Change of the World' the Valar do seen to have grasped that overt interference with the Children of Eru is a very bad idea but total hands off isn't right either. Thus the
emissaries or Istari sent to guide and counsel but not command or force.

Unfortunately it's too late for the Elves. They cannot readjust themselves to the flow of time and life in Middle Earth. They can only return to Aman or if they remain 'fade away'.

[Iarwain]

Interesting bash of the powers, Morwen, but a bash all the same. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] You seem to think that they are blind fools. I disagree, they were what they were. They created Arda, not the Children, therefore they were doing what they considered best for the children. War is not a pretty thing, my friend, I do hope you realize that. I also think that you are wrong in saying that the pilgrimage to Valinor wasn't beneficial to the elves. 'twould be a dull world indeed to live beneath the stars, never seeing the Two Trees. I'm feeling quite lazy and haven't been able to keep a steady train of thought since I sprung forward Sunday morning. Sleep deprivaton... Not good... Good night... *yawn*


Good night all,
Iarwain

*Iarwain stumbles off to bed*

[the phantom]

Morwen Tindomerel, I absolutely loved your post! Far too often, it seems that some Tolkien readers view the Valar as the epitome of perfection, and use them as a standard for behavior, when in fact they had faults of their own, and were nowhere near perfect (it's not possible).

In debates, people always seem reluctant to disagree with, or even question, any action of the Valar, as if there were some sort of law of Tolkien that says "The Valar are always right. If there is any dispute, the Valar are correct."

Though I may not whole-heartedly agree with every single one of your points, I must applaud your bravery and straight forwardness in saying something that is, at times, a bit of a Tolkien taboo.
(by the way, I do agree with most everything, but don't tell [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] )

[Morwen Tindomerel]

Tolkien himself makes a point of how all Elves, even the Holy Vanyar, need at times to breath the air of Middle Earth outside the Pelori Mountains, strongly implying Aman is an unatural enviroment for them.

Retreating behind their mountain walls, hoarding the light of the Trees and abandoning Middle Earth - and the Children - to outer darkness was unquestionably a wrong choice, a failure in their duty. Some of the Valar recognized this; Ulmo, Orome, Yavanna, maybe even Manwe himself - but they were apparently outvoted.

There is of course no question of malice, just some pretty spectacular bad judgement, no doubt their intentions were always good - but you know what the road to H**l is paved with! [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[ April 08, 2003: Message edited by: Morwen Tindomerel ]

[Morwen Tindomerel]

Thank you, Phantom. My little rant is of course intended to be somewhat humorous but it's also quite true.

Even Tolkien himself conceeded the Valar had messed up - and in his late revisions tried to explain away some of their worst errors - but what it comes down to is they are after all just 'creatures' and so fallible - all too fallible unfortunately for Middle Earth! [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[Maylin]

Raphael: God has healed or Healer of God
Gabriel: God is my strength; God is mighty; man of God; the strength of God
Michael: Who is like God? (the battle cry of the heaven forces during the uprising)
Uriel: "Fire of God," "Flame of God," "Light of God," or even "Sun of God."
Now, i know that there must be more, but i don't worship angels, so I don't know any more. The analogy on my part might fall apart a little, or not, but I'm sure that there were more than that. Also, there are most likely more than that as I said, and the analogy could keep going. Anyway, just the way that they are right under Eru Lluvatar, and one of their number tried to become God and turned into satan. Anyway, just the musings of a believer. I had to look up a lot of those though, i only knew Michael and Gabriel, the ones in my Bible, oh, and lucifer, but we know who that is .

Thats alot better the I could do, the only I ever remember reading of are Gabrial, Michael and Lucifer

To me, it seems that in the creation of middle earth, he almost mixed mythology with the bible. ( not thinking it was really true of course, but to add some of his own beliefs)

[Morwen Tindomerel]

Michael and Gabriel are the only angels named in the Bible. Raphael is mentioned in the Book of Tobit, and other angels in assorted Apocrypha, mystical writings and Jewish and Moslem folklore.

Some authorities claim there are seven archangels, (Michael, Gabriel, Raphael and Uriel make all lists, but there is no agreement on the names of the other three) and place one in charge of each planet, (yes, I know there are nine planets - but the ancients didn't!). C.S. Lewis seems to have drawn on this tradition in his Outer Space trilogy: Out of the Silent Planet; Perelandra; That Hideous Strength.

[Aiwendil]

Tolkien himself makes a point of how all Elves, even the Holy Vanyar, need at times to breath the air of Middle Earth outside the Pelori Mountains, strongly implying Aman is an unatural enviroment for them.

Do you happen to remember the source for this? I have a vague recollection that it was in something not entirely reliable in terms of 'canon'. But I could be quite mistaken.

[Son of Fire]

well, i thought there might be 7, but i could only thik of the 3 in the bible as well, thankyou google. Remember, you're only as good as your google. Anyway, it does seem taht Tolkien used that idea of 7 as well. By the way, there are 8 planets, Pluto would be classified as a captured comet if not for the institution that discovered it's lobbyists. Anyway, the Valar are not perfect by any means, but maybe ur a little over the edge there.
Also, the fact that the Valar did no intervene and were weary for a time does not imply that they lost power, but that they were weary for a season. As you will remember, Gandalf was weary after teh door spell in Moria, yet still managed to take down an age old balrog/maya.

[ April 09, 2003: Message edited by: Son of Fire ]

[Morwen Tindomerel]

The need of the Elves of Aman to breath at times the air of Middle Earth, (their native clime) is mentioned in the Silmarillion at the end of the chapter on the Sun and the Moon.