Monkeys eat bananas, right?

[Elenglin]

Were there monkeys/apes in ME?

In The Two Towers Ugluk calls one of the orcs a monkey or an ape (In finnish version it's 'Apina' which means both Monkey and Ape.) I'd like to know what the English version says..

One of the Barrow-Downs' Comic-contest-judges said (commenting one of the comics) that there were probably no bananas in ME, so I assume that there were no Monkeys either.

[Sharkû]

At the battle of Helm's Deep, we have:

Many were cast down in ruin, but many more replaced them, and Orcs sprang up them like apes in the dark forests of the South.

Two general possibilities: a) there are no monkeys in Arda or Middle-Earth, and that was merely a translation of an animal that is similar to it, but unknown in our real world, or even just a figure of speech by the translator who wrote it in English.

However, especially the above quote makes things quite obviously this way: there are apes, but of course not in the climate of Gondor, Rohan, or the Shire, but in the hot and dense jungles to the South, in Harad. The same would go for bananas.

[zifnab]

It appears that "Ape" and "Swine" were common insults with the Orcs.

'Nazgul! Ah! All that they make out! One day you'll wish that you had not said that. Ape!' he snarled fiercely. - Grishnákh to Uglúk.

Sharkey sounds right, if they said Apes then there mustbe some reference to them. Probably somewhere remote. An endangered species, perhaps. I also think that Apes could survive with a lack of bananas just fine. Maybe they had a diet of Strawberries, turnips and potatoes, and the occasional critter that got in its way.

[ March 29, 2002: Message edited by: zifnab ]

[Sharkû]

And, if knowledge of apes so far north seems strange, consider that the Hobbits knew about Oliphaunts.

Actually, Orcs probably used far less pleasant things than _ape_ and _swine_ in their insults...

But Orcs and Trolls spoke as they would, without love of words or things; and their language was actually more degraded and filthy than I have shown it I do not suppose that any will wish for a closer rendering, though models are easy to find.

[ March 29, 2002: Message edited by: Sharku ]

[Sîdhrîs]

As far as I know, monkeys don't exclusively eat bananas, but also leaves, other fruits, insects, bird's eggs... Nice menu, ain't it? So I think at this diet they could have existed in ME, maybe somewhere in the South?

[VanimaEdhel]

Monkeys eat a lot of things other than bananas...bananas aren't monkey's #1 food even, I believe. It's like the idea with mice: how they don't JUST eat cheese, they eat almost anything.

Monkeys could have existed, for many other animals we know existed then (even elephants!).

So, in conclusion, there could have been monkeys.


There! I edited it! You happy, zif? [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[ March 29, 2002: Message edited by: VanimaEdhel ]

[Orodhromeus]

Could they live in Ithilien? What was the climate of Itihlien anyway? Excuse me, but I'm not good in botanics and I don't remember much of the plant/tree species mentioned there. Could the Ithilien be a tropical/temperate jungle?

[zifnab]

In my understanding Elephants and Oliphants are seperate creatures. In the same line, but different. Oliphants were the larger of the two and used more for war then anything else.

Gandalf uses the expression, "Great Eliphants", in the the Hobbit.

True, Sharkey. But you can't deny me the simple pleasure of posting the "common insult". [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[Mirkgirl]

I think Tolkein just wanted to use an animal ofence there, but representing a whole new animal would have taken too much, so he just used one we know, meaning some close MEanimal.

[Sharkû]

You're so ziffy [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Anyway, I have found some monkeys when browsing through some pages of LotR lately:

[VanimaEdhel]

Okay, excuse me zif, but still, you know what I mean...I'll edit the message if it'll make you happy! [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img]

[Bruce MacCulloch]

Of course monkeys, apes, etc existed in Arda. Tolkien makes it very clear that Middle Earth is the north-east of Europe approximately 6,000 years ago. Arda is Earth, not some made-up planet.

[Aralaithiel]

Then why can't there be unicorns, pegasi, etc.? Sorry, I am on a unicorn bent right now.
I'm glad to know that there are some of us that know that bananas are not the primary diet of monkeys. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]
Very interesting thread! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

[Niere-Teleliniel]

who said there werent unicorns and pegasi?

[Birdland]

This thread is starting to sound like an Irish Rover song!

[Aralaithiel]

Ya know, I was starting to think the same thing, Birdland! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

[HerenIstarion]

Up, as Fifteen Foot Rabbits are invading forests of Arda...

[Noxomanus]

Monkeys eating only bananas is probably the most ignorant thing I've ever read here. That means not that many posts here are ignorant though.

I know that me saying this is disliked but I think that still thinking monkeys only eat this type of fruit at your age displays a severe hiatus in your biological upbringing. Blame it on your parents,if you like.

[Mithalwen]

err it is possible they typed tongue in cheek ?

I think Tolkien describes Bilbo as screaming like a steam train in the hobbit....and there weren't any of those in ME..... but I think Tom Shippey deals with this in "Master of middle Earth".....