Westron and Mordern English - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Imbefana · 03-26-2003, 07:31 PM

Hey you guys! I have a couple questions about the languages of ME. See, almost all of the languages that Tolkien created had translations, prenunciations, and more. But what about Westron (a.k.a. Common Tongue or Common Speech)? In his books modern English represents it, (when they talk they are speaking Westron). But Westron was supposed to be derived from Adûnaic right before the beginning of the Thrid Age. So, is English really Westron? Or are there no translations for actual Westron? I don't know if I posted this in the right place, seeing that I am a novice but I'm not sure if fellow novices would know. Thanks [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Estelyn Telcontar · 03-26-2003, 11:06 PM

Let's move this question to the Books forum in hopes that the experts will be able to give some insight there.

Scott · 03-27-2003, 09:14 AM

As far as I know and have read, there was no actual language Westron as developed by Tolkien. Tolkien kind of glossed over the whole presence of the language in ME by placing English as it's equivalent in the books. It's sort of like automatic subtitling. Maybe in the future some language savants will figure out the probable form of Westron by deriving it from Adunaic.
Haryalye estel!Q.
Have hope!
~Scott

03-27-2003, 05:23 PM

As you say, English represents Westron, just as Old English represents the language of the Rohirrim, which in its genuine form is an archaic version of Westron. But Tolkien really developed the genuine Westron. See especially the end of Appendix F to the Lord of the Rings, where it is said, for example, that:
- the "true" name of Meriadoc is Kalimak (Merry being Kali)
- the word "hobbit" is also an "English translation" by Tolkien,the word which was actually used in the Shire being "Kuduk"
- in the Lord of the Rings we see the Rohirrim using an archaic form of the word 'hobbits': 'holbytlan'. This is a translation in Old English of the true Rohirian name: Kûd-dûkan (note the similarity between the Westron/English 'kuduk' / 'hobbit' and the Rohirian/Old English 'kûd-dûkan' / 'holbytlan'

Much more information about genuine Westron was published in Tyalie Tyelelliéva issue 17.

03-26-2003, 07:31 PM	#1
Imbefana Pile O'Bones Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: idly sitting on a dock in Mithlond Posts: 19	Westron and Mordern English Hey you guys! I have a couple questions about the languages of ME. See, almost all of the languages that Tolkien created had translations, prenunciations, and more. But what about Westron (a.k.a. Common Tongue or Common Speech)? In his books modern English represents it, (when they talk they are speaking Westron). But Westron was supposed to be derived from Adûnaic right before the beginning of the Thrid Age. So, is English really Westron? Or are there no translations for actual Westron? I don't know if I posted this in the right place, seeing that I am a novice but I'm not sure if fellow novices would know. Thanks [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] __________________ ~You see things; and you say, 'Why?' But I dream things that never were; and I say, "Why not?" --- George Bernard Shaw~

03-26-2003, 11:06 PM	#2
Estelyn Telcontar Princess of Skwerlz Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: where the Sea is eastwards (WtR: 6060 miles) Posts: 7,500	Let's move this question to the Books forum in hopes that the experts will be able to give some insight there. __________________ 'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...'

03-27-2003, 09:14 AM	#3
Scott Wight Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Ohio/Grey Havens Posts: 183	As far as I know and have read, there was no actual language Westron as developed by Tolkien. Tolkien kind of glossed over the whole presence of the language in ME by placing English as it's equivalent in the books. It's sort of like automatic subtitling. Maybe in the future some language savants will figure out the probable form of Westron by deriving it from Adunaic. Haryalye estel!Q. Have hope! ~Scott __________________ Those who the Gods would destroy, They first make mad. ~Those Crazy Greeks

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03-27-2003, 05:23 PM	#4
Eldacan Guest Posts: n/a	As you say, English represents Westron, just as Old English represents the language of the Rohirrim, which in its genuine form is an archaic version of Westron. But Tolkien really developed the genuine Westron. See especially the end of Appendix F to the Lord of the Rings, where it is said, for example, that: - the "true" name of Meriadoc is Kalimak (Merry being Kali) - the word "hobbit" is also an "English translation" by Tolkien,the word which was actually used in the Shire being "Kuduk" - in the Lord of the Rings we see the Rohirrim using an archaic form of the word 'hobbits': 'holbytlan'. This is a translation in Old English of the true Rohirian name: Kûd-dûkan (note the similarity between the Westron/English 'kuduk' / 'hobbit' and the Rohirian/Old English 'kûd-dûkan' / 'holbytlan' Much more information about genuine Westron was published in Tyalie Tyelelliéva issue 17.