What race was Legolas?

I'm kind of confuzzled about was race Legolas and the Mirkwood elves were. Sylvan? I thought he was Sylvan but then I got confused. Is he the same race as Galadriel? If someone could please answer my question it would be greatly appriciated.
Thanx

[Kransha]

Quenya and Sindarin are not races, they are languages. There is a division of Elves called the Sindar, but, as far as I know, Legolas Greenleaf is not one.

Legolas is not the same race as Galadriel. He is one of the Silvan Elves, as he calls himself, which is a division of th Teleri, the third clan of Elves who did not make the Great Journey to Aman (thus, Umanyar - "Those Who Did Not See the Light of Aman"). Galadriel is one of the Noldor, who did make it to Aman. She was born in Valinor, daughter of Finarfin and grandaughter of Finwe himself, King and Lord of the Noldor. Legolas's and Galadriel's Elven divisions could not be much more distinctly seperate than they are.

Actually, a lot about Legolas is unknown. Here on the Downs, such things have been widely discussed. It is thought that, since Legolas' dad, Thranduil had fair hair (and perhaps his son as well *wink*), he may be one of the golden-haired Vanyar Elves, who did not go on the Great Journey and remained in the East of Ard, but, this opinion is not legitimately determinable. Here is an interesting wealth of information regarding Legolas' referall to himself as a "Silvan Elf" in Eregion.

Legolas seems to refer to himself as a Silvan Elf: in Eregion, he says '...the Elves of this land were of a race strange to us of the silvan folk...' (The Fellowship of the Ring, Book II, Chapter 3, The Ring Goes South). This is confusing, because his father Thranduil is elsewhere identified as one of the Sindar. Tolkien touches on this question in his Letters, where he describes Legolas as '...a Woodland Elf, though one of royal and originally Sindarin line.' (The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien No 297, dated 1967. The explanation for this is found in the History of Galadriel and Celeborn (in Unfinished Tales), where there's a brief account of the arrival of Thranduil's father Oropher among the Silvan Elves of Greenwood the Great. It's made obvious there that Oropher and his small band of Sindar merged themselves completely with the Silvan people of the Wood, leaving behind their Sindarin inheritance. That's why Oropher's grandson Legolas thinks of himself as a Silvan Elf, rather than one of the Sindar.
-Excerpted from a Note on Legolas at The Encyclopedia of Arda.

I suggest you check out one of the many threads about Legolas heritage, genome, hair color, etc. by using the handy-dandy Search Function.

Well, I feel stupid! Anyway thanks! So what are Elrond and Arwen then and what language did Legolas speak? Hey, didn't you just say Sindarin wasn't a race and then you said that it was? Maybe not.

[Kransha]

Well, Elrond and Arwen are Half-Elves, not full Elves, so slightly different. His lineage is rather complex, as is Arwen's.

Elrond's dad, Eärendil, was Half-Elven, the son of a Noldorin Elf (like Galadriel) and a regular mortal man. Eärendil passed this on to his two sons, Elrond and Elros (Elros chose to be mortal, and died, but not before starting the Line of the Númenorean Kings, of which Aragorn Elessar is a part). Here's a slightly more accurate portrayal of Elrond's lineage, ala family tree.
-He was part Sindar, because his grandmother, Nimloth, and great-grandfather, Thingol, were both Sindarin Elves. This makes him about 5/16ths Sindar, all in all, from Nimloth and Thingol Greycloak.
-He was part Maia (like Gandalf) through his great-great-grandma, Melian, Thingol's wife. This is quite an honor, but Elrond is only 1/16th Maiar, with barely any of the inherited blood from Melian still in him.
-He was part Noldor, for the reasons mentioned above. He is about 3/32nds Noldor, with the addition of his great-grandfather Turgon, who wasn't wholly Noldor anyway.
-He was part Vanyar, through his great-grandmother Elenwë AND his triple-great-grandmother, Indis, the second spouse of Finwë, the Noldor Lord. He's all of 5/32nds Noldor, in blood and mind.
-And, even though he's a Half-Elf, he's really only 3/8ths Mortal (or Edain), through Tuor, his grandfather (House of Hador), and Beren, his great grandfather (House of Bëor).

Gets a bit confusing, don't it?

Legolas would speak Sindarin, but with a dialectual twist that would make it "Silvan," which is similar. In LotR, the Mirkwood Elves only speak in Sindarin, with a Silvan accent, because basic Silvan went out of style. Tolkien tells us:
"By the end of the Third Age the Silvan tongues had probably ceased to be spoken in the two regions that had importance at the time of the War of the Ring: Lórien and the realm of Thranduil in northern Mirkwood. All that survived of them in the records was a few words and several names of persons or places."
-Appendix A, The History of Galadriel and Celeborn, UT

...That really solves the problem pretty well.

P.S. You're right, Sindarin technically is a race, but not in comparison to Quenya. Quenya and Sindarin are languages, and Sindarin is not exclusively the language of the Sindar Elves. The Sindar are Telerin, I believe, and dwelled in Beleriand during the First Age of the Sun.

[Mithalwen]

All this is true, but if you want to keep things simpler, the off spring of "mixed" marriages seem to be counted among the father's race (I don't like this as a feminist but it ssems to be the case) although they may maintain ties with their mother's people. So Finarfn and Fingolfin are counted among the Noldor despite their Vanya mother, as are Galadriel and her siblings despite being by blood only a quarter Noldorin. But this is observation not "fact"

[Morgul Queen]

Thranduil was Doriathrin, so he would be Eluwaith...ah...Sindar...but he ruled Greenwood which was mostly populated by Nandor.

Golden hair is a trait of the Vanyar, but is not exclusive to them as a race. Glorfindel was golden-haired, remember?

Legolas seems to refer to himself as a Silvan Elf:

Silvan is actually an old word that has fallen from use (I think it was Anglo in origin, but can't be sure) that was a term for a woodland creature. So a Silvan Deer is a deer that lives in a wood and a Silvan Elf...well, you get the picture! *grins*

[Legolas]

Legolas is Sindarin by blood, and Silvan by culture.

As noted above, his father, Thrandiul, and a number of other Sindarin elves migrated south to Middle-earth from Beleriand at the end of the First Age.

East of the Misty Mountains, a 'melting pot' of elves had settled and mixed together. There were assorted elves that wandered away from the journey, including some of the Nandor that didn't accompany Denethor on his trip to Doriath to rejoin the Sindar. The Green-elves had also mixed in some, along with Avari that had slowly migrated west possibly. These different backgrounds mixed together to form a blend called Silvan. While not Silvan by blood like most of his Mirkwood community, Legolas was still a part of that culture.

There's an appendix in Unfinished Tales on the 'Sindarin princes' among the Silvan lands east of the Misty Mountains.

Also, 'Sindarin' is not a race. 'Elven' is the race. The Sindar are a kindred.

[Morgul Queen]

Ah, Legolas, my old nemesis, how good to see you again...

*discretely hides sword behind back*

Have to point out again that the Elves of Greenwood were Nandor, not (technically) Silvan. Silvan is a description of their living arrangements, not their kindred.

If you must, look to the back of your copy of the Silmarillion. The Kindreds are as follows: Eldar (Elves of the great Journey from Cuivenen), Vanyar (All went to Aman), Noldor (All went to Aman), Teleri (those who went to Aman), Sindar (Those who remained in Beleriand. Sindar is a name given to them by the Noldor, they called themselves the Eluwaith, Elu's People, and Lindar as a general term for the entire kindred), Nandor (Those who left the march before the Misty Mountains, some of which afterwards crossed into Beleriand. These are the 'Silvan' Elves of Greenwood), Laiquendi (those of the Nandor who crossed over into Beleriand) and the Avari (who remained in Cuivenen).

*hides copy of Silmarillion with the sword*

[Nimrodel_9]

Carnimirie, I would suggest you read the Silmarillion. It helps you to better understand the different "races" of Elves.

[Legolas]

Morgul Queen, I don't see where your information disagrees or even relates to mine, and why you gave all the extra information pertaining to each group. By the Third Age, things had changed (i.e. all those nicely drawn lines between groups were blurred).

[Morgul Queen]

I'm basically trying to get across to you that Silvan Elves are not a kindred, it's just a description, so Legolas saying that he's a Silvan elf doesn't really mean much.

[King of the North]

Legolas is from the kindred of Sindar (Teleri who didn't complete the Great Journey) elves. Silvan elves are not one of the 3 kindreds that are existent in the Eldar.

[Morgul Queen]

That's what I said the first time....

If I didn't know better I'd say that someone here was Lee Goldberg...but then I remember that he thinks fans are 'Teh Ebil!!!1!!1one!!eleventyone!!1' [/mutter]

[Legolas]

I'm basically trying to get across to you that Silvan Elves are not a kindred,

You don't have to 'get that across to me' - I never said Silvan was a kindred. I said Sindar is a kindred (but even then, it's really just a subdivision of the Teleri). I'm aware that Silvan is a description...that's why I said Legolas was Silvan by culture. Additionally, you can look back further and see that a "kindred" really is just a description in itself, as Silvan is. In the beginning, 'Vanyar,' 'Teleri,' and 'Noldor' are not defined by anything other than who chose to follow - Ingwe, Elwe/Olwe, or Finwe. Same for every other 'kindred,' 'subkindred,' 'division,' or anything else you want to call the different groups of elves.

Though the Silvan elves were more or less exclusively Nandorin in their beginnings, this had obviously changed in the Third Age. Thus, you don't see any Silvan elves identified by their traditional 'kindred' names from earlier ages (whereas the Teleri by the sea and the remaining High Elves continued making such distinction) because they had blended together. "Silvan" was never formally acknowledged as a "kindred" but effectively it was its own new kindred, or lack of kindred...the elves east of the Misty Mountains simply became Silvan. None were differentiated further save the rulers - Celeborn and Galadriel, and Thranduil and his son. Mithrellas, for example, the 'mother' of the Princes of Dol Amroth, was simply stated to be 'Silvan.'

[Morgul Queen]

While not Silvan by blood...

Though the Silvan elves were more or less exclusively Nandorin in their beginnings, this had obviously changed in the Third Age. Thus, you don't see any Silvan elves identified by their traditional 'kindred' names from earlier ages

But the stories of the third age are told either from the point of view of the Noldor, who tend to re-name everyone, or the Hobbit, who aren't the most knowledgable about the elves. Nothing is really given from the POV of the 'Silvan' elves themselves.

[Legolas]

As for why one might be of 'Silvan blood,' see my last post. The Silvan culture had developed into its own, and one born to Silvan parents would be of Silvan blood because of the disappearance of distinctive communities based on specific kindreds of past ages - that's the point. That's why those elves are no longer referred to as Nandor (or anything else), and why the elves of Lorien and Greenwood are given a collective name.

As for the other comment, that simply doesn't follow. As much as all the other elves are specificially acknowledged as part of this kindred or that kindred, there's no reason why that wouldn't continue with the elves east of the mountains as well. Despite the story being written from a hobbit's perspective, Tolkien gave them quite an omniscient scope - apart from simply being with a Silvan elf (as well as Gandalf and Aragorn) for so long, they had the other history books to consult, and spent an extensive amount of time in Rivendell which we know was spent listening to many stories.

[Morgul Queen]

Fine. fine... *gives up in the face of Legolas's superior intellect*

Something about that sentance seems wrong somehow...

Anyway, Legolas? Would you be willing to have a cameo in a PPC fic? Only, we need someone like you for a small part in our (Agent Darkling and Agent Hwin's) current one. Would you want it? Or should I ask someone else? [/OT]

[Nimrodel_9]

Now calm down children!
Let`s get back on topic.

I have already read The Sillmarilian several times, but thanks anyway Nimrodel_9!

QUOTE/MORGAL QUEEN-Golden hair is a trait of the Vanyar, but is not exclusive to them as a race. Glorfindel was golden-haired, remember?

When you say golden hair, I'm assuming you're still talking about Legolas? That's a really controversial issue. Since Tolkien never specified if Legolas was fair or not, there a lot of people who think he was a brunette. Thrandiul was fair but people are still lead to belive that Legolas wasn't. And in pictures that you see drawn of him his hair is often covered by a cloak. What do you think?

[Legolas]

When you say golden hair, I'm assuming you're still talking about Legolas?

She didn't say Legolas had golden hair. She was pointing out that golden hair wasn't exclusive to the Vanyar, so it was possible for Legolas to have golden hair.