Gandalf and Sauron

[Arathiriel]

The other day I was trying to explain a friend the concept of the Maiar and how Gandalf and Sauron both of the same race.

You know what was throwing her off? She asked if Gandalf comes back (she's only seen FOTR and has yet finished reading TTT) and after making sure she wanted to know I said "Yes, he comes back! But he comes back as a much more powerful being. He comes back as Gandalf the White..." It was then I had to try to explain to her the Maiar.

I told her that Gandalf was of an immmortal race, and that he along with 4 others were sent to ME to become the 5 Wizards that we meet in the LOTR. I also mentioned that Saruman was a Maiar as well...

I told her that the Wizards were sent to help Elves and Men defeat Sauron and here's the thing that was throwing her off...

If Gandalf and Sauron were/are of the same race then, why after his defeated (ie. The loss of the Ring in the Second Age) was Sauron unable to retake on a physical form like Gandalf when he returned from the dead?

And she was like "So they're not of the same race?"

And I said "Yes, they are."

"Then why couldn't Sauron retake a physical form?"

Now I admit I haven't read everything there is to read on Sauron but I told her I think it has something to do with the loss of the Ring is the reason why he couldn't take on a physical form...I mean Sauron put much of his power into the Ring when he forged it...

Am I even close to being right or was is something else that prevented Sauron from taking on physical form again?

[ October 03, 2002: Message edited by: Arathiriel ]

[arelendil]

oh my god i was soo gonna ask about the Gandalf sauron thing thats spooky!
i'm sorry i'm stumped!

[Mattius]

Possibly that may be part of it but also many Tolkein readers believe that Gandalf was allowed to return. The state of the wizards was really bad after the fellowship passed through Moria. Gandalf had seemingly persihed, Sauraman had turned to evil, Radagast had reduced himself to being a wandering vet of sorts and the two blue wizards had dissapeared, rumoured to be starting cults somewhere. Gandalf was the last chance and I believe he was given his life back and more power not by the Valar but by the one being who could- Eru. Sauron was destroyed, Sauraman was also killed and did not return. Hope that helps!

[ October 03, 2002: Message edited by: Mattius ]

[Arathiriel]

Possibly that may be part of it but also many Tolkein readers believe that Gandalf was allowed to return. The state of the wizards was really bad after the fellowship passed through Moria. Gandalf had seemingly persihed, Sauraman had turned to evil, Radagast had reduced himself to being a wandering vet of sorts and the two blue wizards had dissapeared, rumoured to be starting cults somewhere. Gandalf was the last chance and I believe he was given his life back and more power not by the Valar but by the one being who could- Eru. Sauron was destroyed, Sauraman was also killed and did not return. Hope that helps!

You know you, I think you're right: It was Eru not the Valar who granted his return to ME so that he could finish what he had started in the fight against Sauron. Because truly would any of the forces of light been able to fully deal with Sauron's after the treachery of Saruman?

Possibly not...

[Mattius]

[img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] ta very much!

[The Barrow-Wight]

Gandalf did not return with more power. Instead he return with the allowance to reveal his power - something he was not permitted to do as 'The Grey'. With the loss of Saruman to the good side, Gandalf had to do the work of two wizards.

Sauron's power was tied up in the Ring and 'lost' with its destruction.

[Legolas]

Also, Gandalf 'died' from exhaustion. He was sent back because he had a mission to complete. Only he kept to his original task. Sauron died because he had poured all his power into the ring. Both Sauron and Saruman's strength (external and internal) were spread thin, much like Morgoth's strength was when he was wounded by Fingolfin.

I don't know if your friend has read the book or just seen the movie, but you might want to make sure he/she is aware that Gandalf survived the fall and battled the balrog for a week. He was victorious but died soon after.

[Mithadan]

Tolkien conceived of the Valar and Maiar as spirits capable of "clothing" themselves in physical bodies, yet being capable of shedding or changing their "clothing" or appearance at will. However, they could also become incarnate in a permanent physical body, becoming bound by it and its weaknesses. The wizards were incarnated in part as a condition of undertaking their tasks. Such physical bodies can be slain. Morgoth and later Sauron both came to inhabit such physical bodies, Morgoth apparently as a function of his having expended so much of his power, and Sauron as a function of his loss of the Ring.

[Beren87]

lol, Radagast the wandering vet, that was funny.

[Westerly Wizard]

Far be it for me to disagree with the number 2 member of the site, but I think that Gandalf upon his return is both given new power and allowed to reveal more of his power.

"So Gandalf sacrificed himself, was accepted, adn enhanced, and returned. . . . Of course he remains similar in personality and idiosyncrasy, but both his wisdom and power are much greater." (Letter 156)

"Gandalf may be enhanced in power (that is, under the forms of this fable, in sanctity), but if still embodied he must still suffer care and anxiety, and the needs of the flesh" (Letter 156)

Thus, we see Tolkien two statements referring to Gandalf having knew power. The idea that Gandalf's mission is enlarged and consequently he is allowed to use more of his power is made clear in Letter 156: "He was sent by a mere prudent plan of the angelic Valar or governors; but Authority had taken up this plan and enlarged it, at the moment of its failure," (Authority equaling Eru) and furthermore, "He is still under the obligation of concealing his power and of teaching rather than forcing or dominating wills, but were the physical powers of the Enemy are too great for the good will of the opposers to be effective he can act in emergency as an 'angel. . . . In one or two cases in the War (in Vol. III) he does reveal a sudden power."

But the idea that Gandalf's actual power was increased can be developed farther. What is the importance of Gandalf being recieved and sent back by Eru rather than just the Valar? It could be just meant as the only possible way in which Gandalf could be given a new body after being incarnated, but it seems to be more. In recieving and sending back Gandalf, Eru is in an express position to put more power into him; he really has to give him power in order for him to be reincarnated (Gandalf at the time does not have the power to do it himself).

Finally, the argument comes back to the nature of Gandalf and the Istari. Prior to being sent to Middle-earth, Saruman is described as the most powerful of the five in their normal maiarian conditions, and these he is considered the most powerful and head of the istari on Middle-earth when incarnated. However, "Olorin declared that he was too weak for such a task, and that he feared Sauron" (Unfinished Tales"). But when Gandalf/Olorin returns as the White, he is illustrated as far more powerful than he describes himself while not even limited as an istar. Gandalf the White is not scared of Sauron enemy more; "he sums himself up: 'I was the enemy of Sauron'. He might have added: 'for that purpose I was sent to Middle-earth'. But by that he would at the end have meant more than at the beginning" (Letter 154). Olorin in his non-Gandalf form would have hardly been able to stand at the falling city of Minas Tirith in front of the Witch-king and army of Mordor valiantly, but upon being recommissioned by Eru, it is no problem even though his powers are somewhat limited. And ultimately, if the five istari were to be made discarnate, there is no doubt that Gandalf would still be the most powerful of them.

[Galorme]

I would just like to say something about the nature of the incarnations of the Maia. Most of the Maia can only apear in forms, and they can shed them and take them on again at will. The Valar can do the same. Back in the olden days Olorin would often apear as an Elf and walk amoung the Eldar. But in these forms they were still Maia, still subjected to a Maia's thoughts and feeling, its nature if you will. But the Istari were something else entirly. The Istari were Men. Eru took took the Maia and granted them to change their nature for a short time (or maybe even a long time? did they switch back in Amam? that would have scared the hell out of Frodo), thus they were subjected to the weakness of Men. They could not leave their body at will, and Olorin is stronger, always, than Gandalf in his incarnate from as he is subject to none of the forms of damage men are.

[from here on is speculation] But i believe that a Maia would never defeat Sauron as a Maia. And I think that Sauron, and the Rings, were not something unnatural from the world. I think it is something that Eru introduced into the Music of the Ainor, or into the thought of the Ainor. Because the rings of Power were supposed to be a thing of good and was made with the gifts of Eru to the elves and Valar. I believe that Morgoth's evil was using strengths that were against the ideals of Eru. But Sauron used the ideals of beauty and craft to become a greater evil, therefore remaining somewhat truer to the music. And there is only one creature in Arda who can do other than the music said. And that is Man. And i think thats why the Istari were men.

[Nils]

I would like to chime in on the enhanced Gandalf issue. According to POME, Glorfindel's power was enhanced to that of preactically a Maia. This was because his sacraficial battle with a Balrog.

Ganalf's death paralleled Glorfindel's. If Glorfindel's power was increased by that much, it wouldn't be inconceivable that Gandalf's would be too.

On the issue of Sauron not being able to take bodily form, I believe this to be an error and here is why:

Therefore on a time Mithrandir at great peril went again to Dol Guldur and the pits of the Sorcerer, and he discovered the truth of his fears, and escaped. And returning to Elrond he said:
'True, alas, is our guess. This is not one of the Úlairi, as many have long supposed. It is Sauron himself who has taken shape again and now grows apace; and he is gathering again all the Rings to his hand; and he seeks ever for news of the One, and of the Heirs of Isildur, if they live still on earth.'

From Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age.

[Bill Ferny]

I agree with Wizard about the reincarnation of Gandalf the White being both more powerful and wiser than the former incarnation. Afterall, its hard to contest Tolkien's own words. However, if I understand your last paragraph correctly, I don't think I agree that Saruman was ever greater or more powerful than Gandalf.

From the first Gandalf is recognized as the greatest, though not of course by all. Cirdan gives the Red Ring to Gandalf, not the other Istari before him, for he "saw further and deeper than any other in Middle-earth." I think Gandalf's superiority over Saruman resides in Olorin's admittance that he was weak and that he feared Sauron. Manwe's reply was "all the more reason." It was humility, which apparently is central to the nature of the Istari who were embodied as men (men who are characterized by the elves as the Engwar or "sickly"), that made Gandalf greater, and ironically, more powerful than Saruman. Tolkien's message, perhaps, is that humility is always more potent than pride.

Along with the theme of humility, it becomes obvious why the Istari would come as men, not elves. The theme of humility also explains why Gandalf was sent back as a man, and did not do as Sauron did, and reforge for himself another form.

Gandalf remained the servant of Eru, but a humble servant: the servant of the servants of Eru. Not so much unlike Tolkien would have experienced with the slogan of his church's pope, who proclaims to be the servant of the servants of God.

[Westerly Wizard]

When I said that Saruman was more powerful than Gandalf when came to Middle-earth I did not mean that he was greater. Throughout Tolkien's work though there are examples of the most powerful being defeated, and ultimately humility and wisdom and other characteristics make up for lack of power in determining one's greatness. For example, Melkor is described as the most powerful of the Valar, but that does not mean that he comes away victorious. Indeed it can be seen from Gandalf's original characteristics of weakness and humility that he will be the greatest and most successful Istar.

[Sapphire_Flame]

I'm not sure about Gandalf (besides, everyone has covered that part of the question really well), but in regards to the bit about Sauron, I think that the reason he couldn't regain a physical form is because he put too much of his life force into the Ring. There wasn't enough of him left to create a real body.

[Nils]

Sapphire_Flame,

How does your comment about Sauron compare to Gandalf's quote I posted?

[Legolas]

Sauron was able to take physical form during the War of the Ring.

[Westerly Wizard]

Nils, I believe that this discussion was about Sauron not being able to take a shape after the destruction of the Ring, not in the Third age (after Islidur removes it from Sauron's finger). I don't think anyone as of yet has contested the idea that Sauron took shape in the Third Age, which seems to be pretty certain to me.

[Nils]

If the discussion is about the Post-Destruction of the Ring Sauron, then I'd say he fits the rule, not the exception.

The Balrogs, once killed, never came back. The only reason why Sauron was able to come back after his destruction at the end of the Second Age was because of his anchor (the Ring).

Gandalf's return was an act of God. I don't believe anyone should base an understanding of how things normally work based on a miracle.

By the way, I think most people believe that Sauron did not have a physical form during the Third Age. I know I did for the longest of times. [img]smilies/redface.gif[/img]

[Westerly Wizard]

I know that a lot of people think that Sauron did not have a form in the Third Age (hence, "as of yet") and I was only referring to within this thread - and I don't think I will let other people's ideas alter my view that it is almost certain Sauron had a form (and more than just a big fiery eye like many believe).

[Helkasir]

Have the names of the blue wizards ever come up?

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Helkasir, for the names of the blue wizards and discussions on their role, enter 'wizards' or 'Istari' into the search - you will find lots to read!

[Dark-Caranthir]

Helsakir,

The Blue Wizards were named Allatar and Pallando, and they were chosen by Orome the Huntsman, who was really quite terrifying to the servants of Evil, because he had a big scary horn.

Anyway, I'm sure the Blue Wizards did their own little part in the War of the Ring, if they didn't go to Evil too...

[the real findorfin]

Two things

If Sauron lost much of his power after Isildur took the ring, how did he retake forms. Where did he get the power from?

Secondly, when Maiar 'die' where do they go. All those Balrogs and Sauron etc. must go somewhere.

Oh, and as an aside, does anyone know any good Maiar that have died, ie in the War of Wrath?

[Westerly Wizard]

Sauron is able to retake form after the RIng is removed from him because even when he doesn't have the RIng, the power of the ring "existed and was in 'rapport' with himself: he was not 'diminished'."

It seems that when a maia dies, his/her spirit floats around harmlessly throughout Arda. Sauron's spirit is said in the Valaquenta to have followed Melkor's into exile in the Void.

I don't recall any specific good maiar who have died.