Are these the fifty you would have chosen?

[Child of the 7th Age]

TORN recently came up with a list of the "Top Fifty People in Tolkien History" in honor of the fiftieth anniversary of LotR. To see this list, click here.

They do not give us any idea what criteria they used to compile these names, but they are presumably the fifty individuals and/or groups who, in their view, have contributed the most to Tolkien in a personal or literary sense as well as those who have helped to spread knowledge and understandings of his writings. The compiler of the list cautions us in this way:

These entries may not be in the exact order you feel they ought to be in, so PLEASE do not email me telling me what a horrid person I am.

The compiler's statement about "exact order" suggests that, although we should not pay attention to the strict order of each item, the most "important" persons and groups will appear closer to the top of the list.

This listing is very eclectic. Some are contemporaries of the author who had a personal or professional influence on him; others are eminent medieval and/or Tolkien scholars, artists, musicians, or various individuals associated with any of the movie adaptations. Esty - If this is not the correct forum for such an eclectic mix, please move to where you think it would fit in better. I suppose that one of the reasons I have placed this in Books is because I feel that any compilation assessing fifty years of "history" should be more concerned with the Books themselves, their sources and influences, rather than any cinematic, artistic, or musical adaptations.

Are there names you would have included that do not appear, or should others have been left out? If so, why? Would you have ranked certain names higher (or lower) than they currently appear? Additionally, do you have a problem with the way any of these particular people are described?

A few personal comments out of the many that came to my mind..... This is a popular list compiled on a popular movie website. A number of the entries make sense, while others definitely do not.

The list of scholars seems "quirky". Why list Wayne Hammond, Douglas Anderson, Michael Drout, Jane Chance and David Salo but leave out Shippey and Flieger and Carl Hostetter? I would argue that the latter three were actually more important in initially bringing academic recognition and respectability to the professor. Actually, I would include Anderson and Hammond on the list based on their definitive descriptive bibliography (done jointly), Anderson's Annotated Hobbit, and, once it comes out in the next few months, Hamond's new guide, which is supposed to be different in scope and nature than anything that has gone before. Drout and Chance just don't belong there, at least yet. Drout is just getting started on editing Tolkien's "lost" Beowulf manuscript and Chance is a good scholar but not in the same category as the others. (She actually lives here in Houston.)

Jackson and Walsh listed as number one? Please, no! I am not a movie basher, and I know that this website is geared to the films, but I would move them down to the middle. And possibly there are others who would place them even lower?

And how about that final listing? Whatever I may personally think about these books, I see no relevance to Tolkien and his writings.

[Evisse the Blue]

but leave out Shippey and Flieger and Carl Hostetter?

Shippey is there, at #16. And so is Flieger, listed alongside Owen Barfield at # 30.
I'm ashamed to say I don't know some of the people on that list.
I think the anonymous student must be placed at the top though. After all, this is how the hobbit saga started, more or less. But why not bring in, if it comes to that, the anonymous writer(s) of Christ of Cynewulf, whose line 'Eala Earendel...' inspired Tolkien to create the mythology of Middle Earth?
I realize this list is meant to serve the movie-goers who know the Lord of the Rings mainly as a movie, and while I really like the movies myself, I still don't agree with Peter Jackson and Fran Walsh getting the top spot for 'bringing people to the books'. Those people would have got to the books eventually, sooner or later. And I won't even start on those moviegoers who went to the books, only to be bored by them. For the same reason, I don't see J.K.R as belonging in this top. Sure, I love HP, sure, she made kids read more and kudos to her for that. But her world and Tolkien's world are two different things, and one's idea of 'fantasy' radically different from the others'. I'm sure some people love HP and can't stand LOTR (and vice versa, of course )
As, for how these people are described - I would have liked to see a more detailed account of their contribution to Tolkien's works/life and why they are so important, besides simply stating their brief relationship to him: (ex: school friend).
But, on the whole, and not being a Tolkien expert I find it a satisfactory list.
EDIT: did I say satisfactory? I just spotted Robert Plant in there... Maybe Nightwish should be listed here too, since they sometimes happen to mention Tolkien related stuff in their songs? And Blind Guardian were simply robbed!

[Tuor of Gondolin]

I beliebe Shippey's there at # 16. Generally, the list seems adequate. Was Charles Williams on it?
As for # 50, no problem. Gollum will just pop into HP's universe with the precious and wipe the floor with doby, dooby, whatever.

[Child of the 7th Age]

Evisse,

Thanks, Evisse, (and Tuor) for pointing out Shippey. That's what I get for viewing a long list online but not printing it out!

However, it's my understanding that #30 lists Barfield alone, with a fleeting reference to the fact that both Flieger and Barfield's biographer had identified Barfield's impact on Tolkien in their own works. But Flieger is not identified as one of the fifty, which does seem patently wrong, especially when someone like Chance has her own listing.

In a sense you are very correct in asking why the anonymous writer of Christ of Cynewulf wasn't included, when the anonymous student with the exam booklet was. As you imply, lists like these are, by their very nature, "impossible". It is hard enough to sit down and debate the influence of a particular person on Tolkien, even when carrying on an extended conversation, and actually reach an agreement. So how much harder (or less worthwhile?) is it to set down a list of the "top" fifty with a one sentence justification for each in some kind of ranked order.

By its very nature any list compiled must be a gross oversimplification. Yet there is something inside people that wants to see things set down clearly on paper --kind of like the hobbits, with no contradictions and such! How else can you explain how people felt when Tolkien made it to the top of several lists as 'book of the century'? And lest one thinks only "fans" are prone to such excesses....if oversimplified lists don't matter, why did many critics blow their lids when they saw Tolkien come out at the top of these lists? Or, for that matter, what about the endless arguments about what work goes where when it comes to establishing what is "canon"? Those dratted lists again....

I do think this compiler would have been better served by limiting the number of people listed, and providing more explanation of why that person actually deserved inclusion in the list. I also see an inherent movie "bias" in some of these names,which reflects the interests of the person who actually made the list. For example, David Salo did a good job in providing Elvish material for the movie, but there have been a number of people involved over many years in editing the materials coming out from the estate: Hostetter, Wynne, Smith, etc.
Because of them, we have access to materials like osanwe-kenta that didn't even exist in the public domain before.

In a list of this type, I honestly think there is no one "expert" who could do it all. It would be hard to find one person who was equally knowledgable in all these different aspects of Tolkien: Elvish language, art, cinema, biography, music, popular culture and, of course, the writings. The only way to come up with a list that truly reflected those interests in some kind of balance would be to have it selected by a group of people, a project far beyond what was done here.

**************************

[Encaitare]

Evisse said:

EDIT: did I say satisfactory? I just spotted Robert Plant in there... Maybe Nightwish should be listed here too, since they sometimes happen to mention Tolkien related stuff in their songs? And Blind Guardian were simply robbed!

Yeah, and Led Zeppelin too. And possibly Enya. But hooray for locating another Nightwish/Blind guardian fan!

I didn't really have a problem with the list except for its inclusion of JK Rowling. HP and LotR are completely different, and while the creator of the list says she made fantasy "cool" again, Tolkien didn't create Middle-earth so people would think it was "cool."

Ugh.

[Child of the 7th Age]

Child takes a closer look at the list and grits her teeth as she spies a familiar name....

Number 15 is Gary Gygax. He is the man who invented the rules for Dungeons and Dragons in the late sixties and early seventies. He's the author of numerous RPG books and games that take a little bit from one fantasy author and a little bit from another to create a world for gaming. Lots of fun and he did borrow generic characters from Tolkien, but to include him in a list like this is definitely not wise.

To put him ahead of Shippey, Tolkien's guardian Father Morgan, the Inklings, Pauline Baynes, and Humphrey Carpenter is downright painful!

[Imladris]

HP and LotR are completely different, and while the creator of the list says she made fantasy "cool" again, Tolkien didn't create Middle-earth so people would think it was "cool."

Neither did J.K Rowling. Inspiration came to her and struck, just like it did with Tolkien. It is the compiler of the list's opinion that she made fantasy cool again:

But I personally feel she is majorly responsible for making fantasy "cool" again

The only reason that J.K Rowling should be on the list is if she made Tolkien's works more popular. In other words, if she did make fantasy popular again, thus making Tolkien popular again, then she should be on it.

[Encaitare]

Good point, Imladris!

Rowling definitely enlarged the fantasy genre, and did popularize it. All I'm saying is that LotR was already established and quite well-known. Aside from expanding the fantasy genre, I don't think she really can be considered that connected to Tolkien.

[Son of Númenor]

Jackson and Walsh listed as number one? Please, no! I am not a movie basher, and I know that this website is geared to the films, but I would move them down to the middle. And possibly there are others who would place them even lower?

I can't understand for the life of me why Peter Jackson & Co. would be anywhere near the top of a Tolkien history list. Perhaps in a Lord of the Rings history they would have a spot reserved after J.R.R., Christopher, C.S. Lewis and Tolkien's immediate family, and in front of Ralph Bakshi, but I don't see what importance they have in Tolkien history; it would seem that such a list would have people who influenced J.R.R. Tolkien's life and writing, not people who re-interpreted his work thirty years after his death. In this case, I would place J.R.R. Tolkien at the top of the list, and his immediate family and the Inklings above all others.

[Child of the 7th Age]

Son of Numenor,

Actually, I am sympathetic to what you are saying about PJ. The basic problem is that whoever compiled this list gave us no idea of the criteria they used to make their choices. Even if we accept the fact that any individual is bound to have biases, as well as strengths and weaknesses in their knowledge, we would still need to be apprised of the guidelines used in selecting the names.

Ideally, as you suggest, there would be a list that focused on those individuals who directly influenced Tolkien’s life and writings in both a personal and academic sense. Tolkien may have been “hard to influence”, but I am sure that even he would acknowledge a debt of gratitude to many. This would include CT and other family members, CS Lewis and the rest of the Inklings, members of the TCBS, publishers, and perhaps those illustrators and musicians who worked intimately with Tolkien (Swann and Baynes, for example).

You might have a separate list for those who have helped us better understand the man and his writings: scholars, artists and musicians who interpreted the writings through their work, and even, conceivably, a filmmaker or two. And some of these could come along many years after the author’s death. I don’t think Tolkien would have disapproved of such recognition, since he himself expressed a desire at one point that those skilled with art, music and drama would help “fill-in” the outline of Middle-earth that he had proposed.

Of course, there would be individual judgment involved in all this: whose work merited inclusion and whose did not. On this ground, I would be more prone to put PJ and Howard Shore in this secondary list, for example, rather than Bakshi or Rankin/Bass. (And I am not one who “hated” these other movies.)

There are other names I personally would not include: J.K. Rowling, Gary Gygax, Robert Plant, or Saul Zaentz, for example. Rowling and Gygax may have generated interest in fantasy, but I don’t feel that recognition of Tolkien's uniqueness was in any way dependent on their efforts. Similarly, I don't see things like licensing agreements (Zaentz) or occasional references slipped into a few popular songs (Plant) as anything more than a curiosity.

[ohtatyaro]

I'm there too, on line 21 (or 22?), as one of the readers! ya-hey!

[davem]

I can't believe Flieger, one of the most insightful commentators on Tolkien's works, isn't actually top of the list - maybe she could fight it out with Shippey!. As to Michael Drout, I have to put in a word for him, having just yesterday finished reading vol 1 of Tolkien Studies, the new annual journal. His essay, Tolkien's Prose Style, is one of the best analyses I've read on the subject, & contains a deeply insightful exploration of the nature of power & kingship, focussing on Eowyn, Theoden, Denethor & the Lord of the Nazgul,drawing comparisons between the events on the Pelennor Fields & King Lear - which Drout shows to have been a major influence on Tolkien's thinking there.

Drought's exploration of the similarities between Denethor & the Witch King - both Numenorean, both driven to 'wanhope' by despair, & ultimately to surrender to evil, had never occurred to me.Tolkien, in the contrast between the events on the field & in the city, is depicting the conflict of hope held onto in the most extreme circumstances - Eowyn, Theoden, & the despair, the wanhope, which is its opposite. Denethor would become like the Lord of the Nazgul if he continued down the road he was on (incidentally, he makes some nice points about Tolkien's supposed overuse of archaic language - call me stupid, but it had never occurred to me that Eowyn's response to the Witch King was not simply a use of 'archaic language' from an Anglo Saxon speaker, but also a ballsy attempt at mockery:

'No living man may hinder me'
'No living man am I'

Which also perhaps explains why some of the impact of the scene is lost in the movie version, where Eowyn turns uber-feminist & smugly responds ''I am no man!)

Anyway, how's that for straying off topic!

As to Jackson, et al. They've brought some people to the books - amazingly, as the movies have so little real connection to them - but for that reason I'll put up with them being on the list, but surely not at the top.

[Encaitare]

::tentatively raises hand:: The movies brought *me* to the books, actually. I loved the first two movies so much and couldn't wait for the third, so I just went out and read the whole trilogy. And thus an obsession was born.

So I would say PJ and crew deserve their credit, although not necessarily as No. 1.

[Rimbaud]

Naturally with such a list, people will quibble over the meaning of the word 'important'. It seems in this instance that the compiler intends for it to be equated in the first instance with 'successful in popularising', then 'influence upon' and then assorted others. Perhaps 'worked hard to justify to cynics' should be a category...

The first priority of the compiler may help with explaining PJ; the website is also movie-based in any case.

What might be more interesting, although perhaps not suited for this forum until complete, is our own such list. Talent borrows, genius steals.

[mark12_30]

I second Rimbaud's suggestion. Child, do a literary Barrow Downs List!

Establish your criteria and your rules, open the thread up for voting if you like, compile your final list, and then-- what the heck! Send it to TORN with some comment such as "while we were intrigued by the previous list, we thought for comparision and contrast, we'd provide one with a literary emphasis."

[Bêthberry]

28) The governing body of Merton College - Gave Tolkien a home after his wife died.

Hmmm. They omitted the man who drove the car Tolkien hired for transport on family holidays.

There seems to be great confusion in this list between those who popularise Tolkien, those whose work creates greater understanding of Tolkien, and those whose work is inspired by Tolkien, to say nothing of Son of Númenor's point about the literary influences on Tolkien himself or even the historical events in his life which molded the Legendarium.

I can see the Downs holding two Bookish polls: 1) most important works which inspired or influenced the writing ofLotR/the Legendarium and 2)works and/or writers most influenced by Tolkien.

"Influences Five-Oh". As Helen suggests, "Book 'em, Child."

[Cibbwin]

Ditto, movie introduced me to books. Never heard of LoTR before the FoTR movie.

All I know is that that list has inspired me to erect a shrine to Priscilla Tolkien. :P

[mark12_30]

26) Pauline Baynes - The illustrator of the original Hobbit.

Eh??? *blinks* Am I missing something?

She seems to be the only person Tolkien trusted to illustrate his tales faithfully.

....that much I believe.

[Child of the 7th Age]

I crawled into bed yesterday with the summer flu and am just crawling out again, a bit wobbly but on my feet. I was surprised to see that so much had happened here.

Actually, that sounds like a good idea: to post threads that allow people to put up their own lists, and to make the focus of these lists more precise than the one on the One Ring. I do agree that we need more than one list, and I would also suggest that each list have no more than six to ten spots in ranked order (depending on the list in question). Might as well put people's feet to the fire!

How about this for the lists?

• most important works which inspired or influenced the writing of LotR/the Legendarium (per Bethberry)
• those individuals who had the most decisive personal impact on Tolkien in terms of his writings and the creation of Middle-earth
• those creators and scholars who, following in Tolkien's footsteps, have helped us to better understand the author and his works (per Bethberry but slightly altered).

How does this sound? The third one really covers two angles and I'm not sure if it should be split.

I'll probably do this late Wednesday or Thursday, after I recover from the flu and finish working on some very overdue RPG posts. But I'll check back in to see if folks have any more suggestions.

Of couse, when I post the thread, I would also include my own suggestions. People are welcome to take pot shots--that is, at the list, hopefully not at me! I am curious how much concensus there will be.

[Diamond18]

Ha! With the "anything goes" nature of that TORN list (even including the TORN administrators) I should write a nasty email to "Gamgee" claiming that it is a travesty to have left "Ron Kittle" off the list. Truly, how many people have come to the books through the movies but only developed an obsessive love and deeper understanding by visiting the Barrow Downs? Eh? Eh?

[mark12_30]

Ron??? His first name's Ron???

Great alias. Who'd guess we were talking about the in-famous Barrow-Wight? Maybe we'll crash the Google Server.

[Child of the 7th Age]

Ahem....this is taking a great deal longer than I expected. Serves me right!

I know I could just plop down fifteen to twenty names split into three lists with no thought, but somehow that doesn't seem right.

I am working on it and will resurface sooner or later.

[Sharkû]

It's an off topic, unimportant, and ill-worded post, but the poet of Crist 'of Cynewulf' wasn't anonymous... since it was rather Crist _by Cynewulf.
"Cynewulf, an Anglo-Saxon poet who lived in Northumbria or Mercia, flourished circa 750. Four poems can be definitely ascribed to him on the basis of runic 'signatures' in the text of the poems, making him, with Caedmon, one of only two named Anglo-Saxon poets. The four poems, all Christian narratives, are Elene, Crist, Juliana and The Fates of the Apostles." (from Wikipedia.org )

[Legolas]

New list [Edit: in completely random order.]!

In a list of this type, I honestly think there is no one "expert" who could do it all. It would be hard to find one person who was equally knowledgable in all these different aspects of Tolkien: Elvish language, art, cinema, biography, music, popular culture and, of course, the writings.

[Edit: in completely random order.]

1. Legolas
2. Sharku

[Sharkû]

I don't really care about the languages, so I'm ok with that list.

[Kuruharan]

I wanted to bump this up and politely inquire how Child was progressing with The Real List.

[Gorwingel]

Interesting list, interesting order, and I have to agree that it is way too movie-centric.

I have to admit though that I really am not familiar with many of the names on the list. Mainly just the writers and scholars of Tolkien's works. I think though that he tried to come up with a list of the people who would have been mentioned the most times in a Biography of Tolkien and LOTR. And I think that if you look at it from that angle then many of the choices make sense.

But, even though PJ would have been talked about a lot, and I guess that he is the one who I should owe my Tolkien fandom too because of the films, I still don't think that he belongs at number one.

[Saraphim]

Personally, I'd have liked to see Christopher Tolkien higher up on the list. It can't have been an easy task, sifting through his father's notes.

[Child of the 7th Age]

I wanted to bump this up and politely inquire how Child was progressing with The Real List.

Would you believe I am not progressing well at all? OK, OK....I will try and get something up for the first list: that of those sources that influenced Tolkien. I have been thinking about that for a while.

[Legolas]

Righto, Saraphim. Personally, I cannot accept anyone but Christopher Tolkien in the number one slot. Without The Silmarillion and numerous subsequent publications he has provided, Tolkien's world would be much thinner - the bits and pieces of depth are hinted at in the tales of the Third Age, but we would have no idea just how deep, thorough, and ultimately enchanting Arda is.