Orcs, the unwanted people....

[Manwe Sulimo]

I was talking to a friend (Bilbo Baggins in Barrow-downs, although I doubt he's ever posted) earlier about Middle-earth, and this question came up: why are the orcs so underrated?

They are a "sub-species" (like hobbits), after all, coming from perverted (no, not that way....get your mind out of the gutter) elves, much as hobbits are probably the descendents of really short humans....but they've been around almost as long as the Elves and longer than the Dwarves, Men, and Hobbits.

The Orcs were made by Melkor, much as the Dwarves were made by Aulë. This should make them almost equal in standing, the only two races (not counting Ents) who were created by a Vala.

Seeing as how Orcs were the main servants of Sauron....why don't they have Rings of Power, like the Dwarves did? The Rings were made to corrupt the Free People, but they gave unimagined power to their wielders....having 5 (I picked the only remaining odd number) Super-Orc-Captains would've turned Dagorlad or the Siege of Barad-dûr around pretty nicely....and Sauron could've returned a lot sooner in the Third Age, in addition to having both Arnor and Gondor at their knees.

Thoughts?

[Manwe Sulimo]

And yes, I realize that the Elves made the Nine, Seven, and Three, but Sauron made the One, and therefore could've made five other corrupted ones....

[O'Boile]

The difference between Orcs and Dwarves is that Orcs were made in mockery/perversion of Elves as opposed to being created on their own. The act of creating Orcs was considered one of the most evil things Meklor did. The creation of dwarves was not seen in the same light.

[Eol]

That would not be a bad idea, however there is some fallacy in your thought. The orcs were created by Sauron, so in essance, the control would already be there, hence no rings. Sauron wanted control over the men and the most desired, the elves.

[Nar]

Very interesting question, Manwe Sulimo.

I agree with Eol's point that Sauron already had control of the orcs and wanted to ensnare leaders from the other races.

Sauron seems to have viewed the orcs as cannon-fodder, really. He certainly didn't provide vicious winged steeds for orc-captains like Shagrat or spies like Grishnakh-- Grishnakh could have really used one of those leathery birds. He'd have been so proud, flying his hairy self all over middle earth on his gruesome steed.

Then again, orcs never seem to have taken to riding anything, I wonder why? I get the impression orcs are eternally hungry and perennially short of food, short of everything: victims stupid enough to wander alone were few and far between, orcs had no knack for farming/herding and there was not much love or care forthcoming from their master. So perhaps orcs would just eat anything they were issued to ride on.

I think that Sauron viewed men as both cleverer and more controllable when corrupted. Orcs were generally cowardly and bad at staying on message or on mission, with a few exceptions like Ugluk or Shagrat; they tended to shirk duty, squabble, loot and sneak off when not under strict control-- and who can blame them? What a lousy job, being one of Mordor's orcs. [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img]

[Mister Underhill]

Nice analysis, Nar. I get the idea that if Grishnákh ever did get his hands on one of those gruesome winged steeds, he wouldn't be able to hold onto it for very long anyway. Some bigger, stronger Uglúk type would come along and lop off his head and snatch it away.

Anyhow, I really only made this post to chip in that Orcs were known to ride on Wargs from time to time, though I reckon it was an uneasy alliance, with both sides no doubt keeping an eye out for opportunities to consume the other during the lean times.

[ September 04, 2002: Message edited by: Mister Underhill ]

[O'Boile]

Orcs were initially made by Meklor, not Sauron. Remember that elves hate orcs, and the elves made all of the rings except the one ring. I doubt they would want to give rings to the orcs. Also, as has been said, Sauron already has control of the orcs, so why would he waste rings on them when he can use them to corrupt other races.

[Nar]

Thank you, Mr. Underhill, I had forgotten about the warg-riding. So any beast that had sharp fangs and claws to keep itself out of an orcan larder, and wasn't too high off the ground for those bowlegs, orcs could ride. That's quite heartwarming, your image of an orc and his faithless steed/ally eyeing one another in lean times, visions of roast warg and orc sushi dancing in their minds.

O'Boile, I agree that elves wouldn't have given orcs rings, but while I can see why Sauron would want to corrupt men and dwarves with rings, why not make some dark devices for the orcs? They never get anything but the leavings, unless you count Grond, but that was really more the Lord of the Nazgul's toy, although orcs were permitted to guard it and be cut down and trampled on while it was dragged into position.

I think Manwe Sulimo's identified a strategic weakness here. Sauron clearly has a problem delegating power outside a tiny coterie of toadying courtiers. A few man-ghost groupies were just adoring enough to keep around as captains, but orcs were too unruly to do anything with but exploit and use up. *sniff!* If only those orcs had had union representation! Perhaps Sauron could have won in the Second or Third Ages if he'd put his trust in some stout orc captains like Ugluk or Shagrat and backed them up with a little of the old Lugburz magic. Ugluk could certainly think on his feet, and Shagrat showed much more tenacity when wounded, more grit in a tight spot, than those pampered Nazgul, running off home to Mordor because they got wetted and unhorsed at the Fords of Brunien!

[ September 05, 2002: Message edited by: Nar ]

[littlemanpoet]

Okay, I'll bite (pardon the pun).

Nar: Did you ever consider that orcs like being orcs? For the sake of comparison, I remember the bullies back in all years of school prior to college - yes - maybe they had psychosomatic and social reasons for why they were the way they were, but could it possibly be that they just liked causing trouble, pain, humiliation and all that? That keeps me from pitying orcs. Haradrim are another matter. Sam pitied the dead Haradrim in Ithilien, and that seemed right - the guy was probably a family man. It's hard to imagine an orc guy as a family man, he'd probably eat the little tiks before consuming his wench, eh?

Tolkien was wont to characterize certain developments in the England of his time as 'orcish'.

[Nar]

I have no doubt, LMP that orcs like being orcs, I just don't think they liked being cannonfodder. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

I don't think captains like Shagrat or Ugluk were treated fairly, --geez, I guess it's only to be expected, considering their employer: 'Well, my first day on the job at DarkLordMart -- what do you mean I don't get health coverage and torture indemnity for my family! I have to stay late tormenting hapless captives in the parking lot with no overtime pay??? You ... you're not only the Forces of Evil, you're an abusive employer!'

Seriously, LMP, I don't feel particularly sentimental about orcs: their idea of fun is torturing captives to death! That, well, that's not nice. Not at all.

I have to say, though, that the human bullies I have known had a choice. Most of the ones I observed weren't even working out of pain, as psychologists would have us believe-- I saw a lot going for power and status, and others, sidekicks and wannabes taking out their frustrations at not being pack leader. I rarely saw anyone hassling people for a recognizably human reason like buried hatred over a horrible life-- they fried people's psyches out of boredom, ambition, minor frusteration, the most trivial of reasons. They always had a choice, and from my observations not a difficult one at all. And they could always stop being bullies anytime they wanted.

As far as ruthless scavenging and predatory behavior, orcs were orcs and, I agree, liked being that way. It's not that different from some human behavior we see today, but with orcs there's not much else.

However, when it comes to metaphysically serving the forces of darkness, where would an orc go if he(she) didn't want to do that? How would he(she) get out of it? I don't like that orcs HAVE to be in Sauron's army, that it's assumed by all, including the good guys, that they must and will be not just average predators but part and parcel of THE ENEMY. No one ever tries with orcs. Probably, given their nature, they'd be for the bad and against the good anyway, but no one ever checks. There I have some sympathy for them.

Part of the orc's automatic allegiance with Sauron is the nature of the story's mythological time: being a predator means being with the enemy, because everything's reflective of its deeper moral and mythological place in the universe. So I can understand that the predator types would all be with The Enemy, of course! But the beauty of this story is that it spills beyond those myths and archetypes-- that Tolkien the author's generous enough to write the orcs fully with all their orcish feelings.

Tolkien does not write the orcs merely as little nuggets of nightmare, putting nothing into them that doesn't serve to illustrate our fears. Tolkien's orcs have a crazy integrity as characters: they're not just fearsome, they're cranky and frusterated: they hate their jobs and they'd slink off if they could get away with it. That's true generosity, to grant even your nightmare creatures their own integrity as living sub-created beings.

[ September 06, 2002: Message edited by: Nar ]

[Eol]

Nar that was almost poetic.

I would have to fully agree with the bully theory. They do have choice, as everyone else does on Middle-earth even though it seems there is a pre-destinity or fate underlining everything.

I have yet to reallly find someone who does grunt work and if they could come back, they would do all over again.

[Mister Underhill]

Great points again, as usual, Nar. I've always said that Sauron's tendency to micro-manage was the true cause of his downfall.

It's a fine point, but another small reminder: Uglúk was the front-man of the White Hand Band, not a direct servant of the Dark Lord. Saruman looks downright progressive next to Sauron, what with tasty perks like man's-flesh to eat. No wonder those Uruks were so big and strapping. And his esprit-de-corps! Look at the initiative and decisiveness Uglúk displays in the field! He's so mission-focused, so disciplined, those Western captains would no doubt be shoving each other out of the way to recruit him if they could only see him in action. There were alternative opportunities for upwardly-mobile Orcs after all, perhaps.

[Dwarin Thunderhammer]

For once I do have something to add.

I think that giving the orcs rings of power would have been against the "ethos" of Sauron and Melkor. Melkor mutilated the orcs in mockery and hatered of the elves. Giving them rings of power would have been something akin to acknowledging that they had some inherint value. Something that Melkor and Sauron did not believe.

[bombur]

History is written by the winners.

Morgoth makes this little slave people out of moriquendi eleves by perverting them. So what, who cares. It is a crime by the Morgoth against the beauty of the eleves. Who gives a **** of those ugly slaves? Twise Valar go to war against Morgoth. Once over eleves and once over eleves and men. Who cares of the slaves really, none, ever.

Both times valar come to middle earth to fight, the just nonchalantly try to hunt the orcs to extinction. Attempt of genocide if you ask me and a sloppy attempt in that. Were they offered the mercies that the forgiving valar offered even Sauron. Hell no, they are not generals to surrender with dignity and to be paraded in victory triumph at the streets of Valinor after all. Whats the glory in gloating over capturing few million ugly slaves when you have beautiful and wise servants like noldor. Who cares what happens to those little half-animal slaves of the black lord. Valar propably would have built gas chambers for the orcs had they not scurried to hide under the mountains.

And what happens next after each war. Valar take the men and eleves to live in nicety nice places and leave the orcs to be slaves of the next bully in line, be that Sauron or their own chiefs.

What have the slaves but the dark masters on whose mercies they have been left by the "good" and "merciful" of the middle earth? They have the insecurity of life. By their genes they are immortal and their lifespan averages less then fifty years. On minor raids they run into riding knights who outnumber them 10 to 1 and yet do theese chivalrous and noble knights offer chance of dignified surrender? They are given inadequate fuel (I would call it food) by there slavemasters and they are constantly whipped and watched over by kapoes (not alike those in Auchwitch) seleced from their own rank. Theese are always the meanest of them and kill them for some minor screwups like letting two prisoners escape from Cirith Ungol. Two helples prisoners loaded with eleven weapons, dwarwen armor and equipped with the one ring. Who counts the slaves anyways? The smallest in line always pays for "failures." If a kapo has a bad day, hell just cheer himself up by feeding few minor slaves to Shellob.

What is the best a life has to offer to the individual orc? We heard it in Cirith Ungol, did we not? It is escape from their evil abusive masters. And escape to what at that? Escape to uncertain life as bandits hunted to death by fair knights and eleves even more relentlessly then those who loyally remain in Mordor.

And yet are theese people without talent. No. The industrial potential of Mordor and Isengard rest squarely on the shoulders of theese abused creatures driven to their doom by their tyrants. They have built the forges and smithed the swords. Thought by no one they make the swords to fight eleves whose weaponmaking art was gift from valar themselves. They mine the metals and forge their own schakles.

I say to you orkish race... No more to the era of dark and bloody tyrants. No more to the world domination of peridifious, sanctimonious and brutal eleves.

Time has come to abandon your chains.

I say to you orcish race... since the fall of Sauron, we have been enslaved in the mines of Gondor. We have been hunted by its knights in the mountains and forests. No more.

You have been decieved and the world is yours.

We the orcs have nothing to lose but our chains. We will triumph. The world will be ours. Dialectic demands it.

All the orcs in the world; unite!


[img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]


Janne Harju

[Nar]

Thank you very much, Mr. Underhill. Good point about Ugluk. I'm sure Saruman would have gotten around to micromanaging, given enough time-- look at the way he popped up all over the fields of Rohan 'old man all in white' pestering his hardworking orcs. Where's the trust? Dwarin, you are so right about Morgoth and Sauron. They did not think the orcs were worthy of any serious consideration; they were created to be used and used up. It's just a bad idea to work for the forces of evil, they got no ethics.

You make many good points about the misery of the orcs, Bombur. And you certainly write a stirring call to arms. However, I have to disagree with some of your points.

Tolkien stated that elves DID accept surrender from their enemies, even orcs --I believe it's in the later volumes of HoME. This business about the Valar massacring orcs is simply not supported by anything I've read, not at all. They invaded because the orcs' resident tyrant Morgoth was enslaving, massacring and torturing every living creature he could gain power over. The orcs themselves were awful to anyone they captured, because they chose to be. Those orcs that were in Morgoth's army no doubt fought with the Valar and their army, no doubt many were killed if they did not surrender-- that's a war for you. They're nasty things, wars. As far as I can tell, orcs were left alone if they left others alone. They lived under the mountains because they were mountain orcs, and naturally liked caverns. All the elf attacks I ever read about were provoked by orc attacks: the case of Celebrian, for example.

If you're talking about leaving, moving on, finding an empty land, orcs finding a way to live that satisfies them and does not involve abusing other thinking creatures-- both because that's wrong (why else would it be wrong to massacre orcs unneccessarily? because they're thinking creatures... like elves, men and hobbits) and because that leads to more wars and trouble with other thinking creatures, wars orcs historically lose, then in that case I agree, Bombur. Go do so! Find a free, relatively harmless way of orc life!

But if you're talking revenge for a list of wrongs that omits the orcs' part in events, if you're talking about conquest licensed by imagined wrongs, then you're simply offering to be the newest tyrant of the orcs. They've had enough of that.

So go ahead and seek a new life for the orcs, with them minding orcish business and not 'great angry tyrant' business. As long as orcs do no harm to other thinking peoples, I'm all for it.

[ September 07, 2002: Message edited by: Nar ]