LotR Reading Club

[Nurumaiel]

Here I come running in, hoping I'm not too late! Why didn't I notice this before? Besides the enjoyment and the opportunity to read LotR again, I'll also be able to do at the same time the character notes I promised Helen at the beginning of Friends of Nimrodel. Do you remember?

I will be immensely grateful and relieved if I am assured I am not too late to become a part of the 'club.' *little bow*

[mark12_30]

Nuru-- Yes, I do. Good thought! And I'm sure you are not too late.

[mark12_30]

It's already there, Saucie. Go to the Forum-- for instance, "Books". Check out all these links -- these headings all along the top, in yellow font. You can sort on any of them. They are stretched across the top of the frame, like a menu.


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The threads have different headings; these are by Forum and Sub-Forum.

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

Nuru's post puts me in mind of something that Esty and I have been PM-ing about -- this 'club' is NOT meant to, nor will it ever be exclusive or closed. 'New' people can come and go as they like: 'keeping up' with the new threads as they come on for new chapter(s), or going 'back' and reviewing and adding to the discussion of earlier chapters.

In everything we do with our brand-spanking-new Sub-Forum (I am SO excited we have our own -- all hail the great and benevolent Barrow Wight!) we need to make sure that its openness is crystal clear to all and sundry.

[Kransha]

Speaking of crystal clear openness, perhaps we should just clear-itize a few simple things. For the sake of others, newcomers, willing leaners, and myself, who has already lagged behind the last half a page of this vivacious discussion, here is a questionnaire directed Fordim and any others who think they know the answers, just for the sake of pure, untainted clarity.

1) What is the level of organization for these 'chunky' discussions? Will we have already planned what level of time is to be put into each tier of chapter discussion. I know too much planning will water down the enjoyment, but how will the levels be kept track of? Begin and end? I realize that no discussion may ever entirely end, but how will we go about the process?

2) What sort of things will be discussed? Just very general stuff, themes, language, and the like? Will any discussions be a bit more thematic than others? More specific, or focused, perhaps?

3) What members have we currently? As this is not 'exclusive' I suppose there really is no 'club' merely members who wish to try their hand. Does this mean that anyone can openly discuss something, make a new point, or is there an appointed amount of folks who will reign over each of the chapter levels?

That's all I can concoct for now. Must...compose...thoughts...adequately...

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

1) What is the level of organization for these 'chunky' discussions? Will we have already planned what level of time is to be put into each tier of chapter discussion. I know too much planning will water down the enjoyment, but how will the levels be kept track of? Begin and end? I realize that no discussion may ever entirely end, but how will we go about the process?

It's looking more and more like there will be a new thread added by a mod for each chapter on a more or less weekly basis -- the ambiguity here comes from the proposal to speed up the pace or slow it down depending on how the discussion is going. Those who wish to post to the new thread can go ahead, those who wish to continue with the older threads may do so, those who wish to do both -- more power to them!

So, yes, this means that this forum will be running for more than a year before we've got through the whole book, but I don't think anyone is proposing that you have to read the book that slowly -- I myself will read it chapter by chapter as we go, but others may wish simply to review from time to time.

2) What sort of things will be discussed? Just very general stuff, themes, language, and the like? Will any discussions be a bit more thematic than others? More specific, or focused, perhaps?

Again, it would appear as though we are moving toward a very open forum for discussion. I am certainly not going to pose formal questions each week (egads -- can you imagine the workload?) and none of the mods have yet undertaken to do so either. I rather suspect that it will work out that somebody will post something, and somebody else will respond, etc etc. As we get further into it, there will be ideas floating around already that we can bring to bear on the new chapter.

3) What members have we currently? As this is not 'exclusive' I suppose there really is no 'club' merely members who wish to try their hand. Does this mean that anyone can openly discuss something, make a new point, or is there an appointed amount of folks who will reign over each of the chapter levels?

Anyone and everyone at the Downs is automatically a member of the club. They can post once or every day for the duration of the discussion (yes, I am looking at you Saucepan).

Hope this clarifies where I think things currently stand.

[Child of the 7th Age]

Fordim -

My hat is off to you. This is an excellent idea, and I will gladly take part.

In a previous post, Lyta Underhill mentioned the small read-along group at Yahoo that is, in my opinion, one of the best on the web. This actually grew out of a netscape discussion board. For the past six months, I've followed along silently with the Silmarillion, learning a lot in the process. Before that, they did the entire LotR text, and have now started on The Tolkien Reader. Individual posters come and go, but the discussion continues on.

Lyta did not have the link so I will post it in case anyone wants to look and get an idea of how such a group functions. Kransha -- Maybe it would help to look at the ebb and flow of discussion there to see how people contribute. Everyone brings forward new ideas, and each speaks from a different angle. Some express things from a personal view, i.e, how they actually felt when they read something in the text, and others bring in outside text and ideas, but everyone contributes and is listened to.

Here are the archives for the LotR discussion and for the first half of the Silm: archives. Here are the more current discussions: message board They have a lot of fun and share some good ideas.

While we obviously have to make initial decisions about the pace of reading and how material should be grouped and presented, I think some of this will play itself out in the actual discussion. If and when it's obvious that a particular discussion is still ongoing, posters will just naturally congregate there. Folks who disappear on vacation for a few weeks in the summer may want to go back and add their two cents in. Anything we can do to keep the discussion flexible, at least in this sense, is a good idea.

To be very truthful, one of the reasons I like this idea is that I feel it could get posters with different backgrounds and approaches together, all working on a common goal. Too often, we go off in our little corners --this group to Middle-earth Mirth, another to "lofty, philosophical" discussions in Books, another to RPGs, and then there are the quiz mavens! Yet the one thing we all share in common is the actual text of the books. It would be good to have a thread where that takes center stage.

~Child

[Sirithheruwen]

This sounds great! I will most certainly join in, at least a couple times. I, however, would be more content to let the more "learned" 'Downers take over. I'll stand on the sidelines - your own personal cheerleader!

[Child of the 7th Age]

Sirithheruwen -

Oh, no! That's the one thing I hope will not happen: to have a few people dominate who are the 'regulars' posting in Books. My hope, as I tried to explain in my edit to my last post, is that this should be a wider base of posters, even some folk who don't normally contribute as much to the Books forum.

It seems to me that in a discussion of this type, our personal and immediate response to the text is just as important as any 'scholarly' discussion that draws on outside ideas, other writings etc. What can be most intriguing is learning how other folk see things in their mind, how they feel when they see the characters going through particular situations.

So please, please don't sit back and lurk. Stick your toe in the water, and let people know what the book means to you. In a discussion like this, both approaches --the personal and the so-called scholarly--are equally valid as long as we stay on topic. This is the same thing that Fordim was getting at in one of his earlier posts.

~Child

[Kuruharan]

This is a good idea.

Stopping to think about it, and I'm ashamed to admit this, I think it's been years since I actually sat down and really read the books. It's gotten so I just thumb through them for a textual reference, or just read a random chapter or two if the mood takes me.

*smack* Bad Kuruharan! *smack**smack* Bad, Bad Kuruharan!

[Nurumaiel]

Child, I heartily agree with what you have said. I do not often take part in discussions in the 'Books' forum. While I would love to do it I just don't have the time to read and study LotR (and other works of Tolkien) enough to get that deep. Most of it is over my head. This planned 'reading club' will provide the perfect opportunity to start out slow, as you have said, Child, sticking my toe in the water and wading deeper and deeper. Perhaps I'll get to the point where I can swim!

I was given the impression that the discussions were for all... for the learned to learn more and the ignorant to learn.

[mark12_30]

Preach it, Child!!

Kuruharan, don't be too hard on yourself. Want a good laugh?

"Next time I read the book, I'll be looking for Point of View characters, points of wonder, sense of faerie, invasion of t-T-t-Truth , Frodo's visions and mood swings, and --- oh, you know. I have so many things to look for!"

Eh, as a result, I've been *afraid* to read the books, because I couldn't afford the emotional highs and lows that will result.

[Bombadil]

Hey Dol, Merry Dol! What a great day! Being in a Lord of the Rings club in my school, I can now bring up discussions of chapters from the downs to the club and vice-versa! Count Old Tom in!

[Lhunardawen]

To be very truthful, one of the reasons I like this idea is that I feel it could get posters with different backgrounds and approaches together, all working on a common goal. Too often, we go off in our little corners --this group to Middle-earth Mirth, another to "lofty, philosophical" discussions in Books, another to RPGs, and then there are the quiz mavens! Yet the one thing we all share in common is the actual text of the books. It would be good to have a thread where that takes center stage.

You couldn't have said it better, Child. Now my worst nightmare is over!

Count me in, Fordim. And it is a very brilliant idea, too. Whenever I read the books, I see little details that I have ignored at first. I have always wanted to discuss them but I fear that creating such a thread is pointless. Thanks a lot! But I guess I would be among those lagging behind, since I can only visit the Downs every weekends...

edit: please read my sig, it may be encouraging!

[Fingolfin II]

Count me in on this too- it's a great idea! Is that what the new forum was made for?

[Son of Númenor]

Is that what the new forum was made for?

'Tis indeed. I am surprised & delighted that it was put up so fast; Fordim apparently has friends in high places.

[Saraphim]

Count me in as well! I've always wanted to get something like this going with my friends, but, well, they aren't as avid as I am about Lord of the Rings, so, well, here I am.

[mark12_30]

Ooooh, should we imitate the Walk to Rivendell and put our chapter number in our Location?

(I couldn't resist.)

'**********

I'm going to use the ballantine RotK-movie-release paperbacks off the grocery store shelves. If they get beat up it won't bother me, and they are lighter than my beloved Omnibus copies... I already put a paper cover on Fellowship, though. It's the one with the Frodo-With-Phial-In-Shelob's-Cave on the cover... but I haven't decided what to put on my paper cover so it's still blank white.... hooom, hom. I guess while I'm waiting for the Start Signal, I can be daydreaming about a drawing for the cover...

[HerenIstarion]

Oh, no! That's the one thing I hope will not happen: to have a few people dominate who are the 'regulars' posting in Books

It would be advisable to put up sticky advertisements in all other sub-fora. I judge by meself, for I seldom venture where I seldom venture, if you follow my meaning, kind sirs and ladies

[Mister Underhill]

Just for a pacing benchmark, it looks like the group Child linked took eight or nine months to read from Prologue through Appendices. If the quick math in my head is right (and that's not a given by any means), I reckon that's roughly two chapters a week.

Anyone besides those who have already chimed in have any strong thoughts or ideas on pace?

[Maédhros]

I'll do this soon. A moderator-to-be-named-later will be responsible for starting each new topic. I'm considering stickying each topic so that they will fall in proper order rather than being all jumbled up. The downside of that organization would be that finding newer posts might be more difficult. Thoughts and suggestions?

My concern with the chapter a week pace is that discussion will go on for over a year. It's hard to keep any core group committed and focused for such a length of time. There's also the consideration that by the time you get to the end of the book, the beginning will seem a distant memory. The book isn't meant to be read at such a slow pace.

I think that the discussion of LOTR is a great idea, but I have to disagree with having a moderator responsible for starting each new topic. I have experience with this because in another forum I started a Published Silmarillion discussion chapter by chapter and we assigned a different person the responsability of doing the intro of each chapter. I think that this approach offers a better display of ideas and point of views than say a single person doing that for each chapter, and also that the work is inmense, also it would make the persons more involved because they would have to research in order to make good intros into the discussion in the chapters.
I would not be adverse of the idea of having a single person posting the initial post of a chapter, provided that it is done by different persons so as to assure the quality of the intro.

On the time problem for the discussion. While it is certainly very difficult to maintain for a long period of time, it is not impossible either. For example, I posted the Ainulindalë chapter in Nov 11 of 2002, and we as of today are nearly finishing discussing the Eärendil chapter and after that there is still the Akallabêth and Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age.
My point is that it not only can be done, but it has been done.

Here is the link: The Silmarillion Project

[The Saucepan Man]

It's already there, Saucie. Go to the Forum-- for instance, "Books". Check out all these links -- these headings all along the top, in yellow font.

But that still wouldn't allow one to order the threads by chapter - unless, that is, we preface each thread/chapter title with an alphabetical reference. So, the thread titles for Book One chapters would be: "1A. A Long-expected Party". "1B. The Shadow of the Past" etc. Book Two chapters would be titled: "2A. Many Meetings", "2B. The Council of Elrond" etc. I am assuming that numbers take precedence over letters, but if not it would be the other way round. In any event, that would allow us to order the threads by chapter in the sub-forum if we wanted too.

Sorry, I know that this is getting into the detail, but I'm a sucker for detail.

[Lyta_Underhill]

I think that this approach offers a better display of ideas and point of views than say a single person doing that for each chapter, and also that the work is inmense, also it would make the persons more involved because they would have to research in order to make good intros into the discussion in the chapters.

Maedhros' example is about how my thoughts run as well. I agree completely about having a different person intro each chapter, or at least spacing out the chapters introduced by the same person. The structure of the intro post for each chapter in my experience was more a summary, then analysis, then favorite parts, but I also like Maedhros' structure of adding the burning questions posed by the particular passages. The thing that distinguished the initial poster of each chapter was that their summary, etc. followed a pre-determined structure, but the content was determined by the material. The following posts could address any point in the first post or go off on any question posed at any time by a subsequent poster on the chapter's points, or bring up new points not explored by the initial poster. I think it worked pretty well, however, it did take over a week for each new person to prepare his or her initial post, as it did take more or less an essay form and was well thought out. For this reason, I think it would be better to assign a different initial poster on each chapter, just for the sake of speed, so the entire forum is not waiting on one poor overworked moderator to come up with the next chapter's intro. Just my thoughts.

Cheers!
Lyta

[mark12_30]

Ah. Having seen in Mister Underhill's public profile "Interests: Wipes vs. dissolves; Occupation: Workin' man ", that he was referring to graphics-coding rather than clorox and comet... Mister Underhill, if I have mistakenly accused you of being an UberGeek you may freely vent your wrath.

Otherwise I expect/assume that the book number and zero-padded chapter numbers will precede the chapter text-string-names. As in:

B1Ch01_AnUnexpectedParty
B1Ch02_ShadowOfThePast
...etc.

[Evisse the Blue]

But late is better than never - I see you still have some administrative issues to discuss before the fun starts. Following Child's advice I will try to join in as often as I can. (with the mention that I've never participated in such a read-along before, so I'm looking forward to my first). So, you can count me in too.

[The Saucepan Man]

Yes, that looks sensible, Helen.

While I agree with allocating responsibility for the first post on each chapter to different people (not necessarily mods, though ), I don't think that anyone should be expected to write an essay. People can, of course, if they want to. But, if not, a summary of the major themes and issues which occur to them should suffice to get things rolling. Subsequent posters will be free to raise additional matters, of course.

[Mister Underhill]

Quick thoughts:

Maédhros: Point taken. I venture to say that the TftE crew is unusually dedicated, though. If the idea here is to involve a broad cross-section of Downers, then a narrower time frame seems more likely to succeed. But hey, if I'm the only one worried, I'm certainly not going to make a federal case out of it. Besides, there's probably not much difference between eight months and a year and change. If pacing it out to cover, say, the summer seems too fast, then you may as well go whole hog and do a chapter per week.

M and Lyta: Topic starting. A couple of things. Do we really need a summary? After all, posters presumably all just read the chapter. That's the point, right? Plus we have detailed chapter summaries available for linking (or even cutting-and-pasting, for that matter) on the Downs proper. As far as preparing an essay-form analysis/introduction of discussion points... I wasn't anticipating anything of this sort. I side with the posters who advocate maximum flexibility in the actual discussion structure. My idea was that the moderator would pretty much create the thread without necessarily creating expansive introductory comments and discussion would simply begin, with posters taking the lead in any given chapter as opportunity and inspiration allowed, rather than as assigned work. This approach also guards against dropout and burnout and missed deadlines. I can be convinced otherwise, though.

Saucepan and mark12_30: Yes, I had anticipated a standard thread-naming convention (another reason to have one person starting all the threads). Maybe not so "computerese" as your examples, Helen, but something similar. The zero-padding is a good point. So - "Book I - Chapter 01 - A Long-Expected Party" and so on. "Wipes vs. dissolves" refers to filmic transitions. Ugh -- my mask is slipping!

Oh, and P.S. -- Lyta, it's awesome that you have a sig from "Pale Rider". Eastwood RULES.

P.P.S. -- Cross-posting with SPM -- agreed re: essay writing.

[Maédhros]

I venture to say that the TftE crew is unusually dedicated, though. If the idea here is to involve a broad cross-section of Downers, then a narrower time frame seems more likely to succeed. But hey, if I'm the only one worried, I'm certainly not going to make a federal case out of it. Besides, there's probably not much difference between eight months and a year and change. If pacing it out to cover, say, the summer seems too fast, then you may as well go whole hog and do a chapter per week.

The narrower time frame seems more likely to succeed, but the main difference between here and that other forum is that there are more members in this forum than in that where the Silmarillion Discussion is taking place. There is an advantage in having a more long discussion time is that it gives more people the opportunity to contribute while the discussion is taking place. So there are pros and cons in there.

Topic starting. A couple of things. Do we really need a summary? After all, posters presumably all just read the chapter. That's the point, right? Plus we have detailed chapter summaries available for linking (or even cutting-and-pasting, for that matter) on the Downs proper. As far as preparing an essay-form analysis/introduction of discussion points... I wasn't anticipating anything of this sort. I side with the posters who advocate maximum flexibility in the actual discussion structure. My idea was that the moderator would pretty much create the thread without necessarily creating expansive introductory comments and discussion would simply begin, with posters taking the lead in any given chapter as opportunity and inspiration allowed, rather than as assigned work. This approach also guards against dropout and burnout and missed deadlines. I can be convinced otherwise, though.

I don't see a contradicion with having an analysis/intro with having maximum flexibility in the discussion. The intro is just an intro, anyone can post their questions/ideas. The idea for the intro is to set a base for the discussion, the different posters can provide their own insight in the chapters.
Another point is that having people doing the intros hopefully will make those persons work harder to try and come up with better ideas/thoughts that can deepen the discussion.
As for the deadlines/dropout and missed deadlines, well it might happen but hey, in our works and life we have deadlines that we have to deal with and it is Tolkien and it is supposed to be fun. Any member can take the intro if another doesn't have the time or a problem in making it.

[Mister Underhill]

Intros/essays. The more I think about it, the less I like it because it adds a whole layer of management. Someone would have to create a sign-up for chapter intros, then assign them, then have to follow-up on getting them from the assigned person or reassigning them if a person dropped out or ran late or...

I think you catch my drift. We don't need those kind of headaches. The Downs has a longstanding tradition of intelligent, relatively unmoderated discussion which I think will work just fine for this project.

[Lhundulinwen]

Sounds like a lot of fun, and a great way for all Downers to come together! Personally, I think it would be best to keep most things fairly flexible. I do agree that there should be a little order to the chaos though. Also, here is my idea (humble though it is)- Whoever starts the VERY first chapter, should include like a mssion statement type thing. (I hope I am making sense here) Ex.-

1. This is NOT a 'club'. It is open to everyone on the Downs.
2. We will shoot for ____ chapters a week, but feel free to go at own pace.
Etc, etc. Hope I didn't just sound like an executive or a dork.

Oh, and will someone tell me when the start date might be? I will be gone the next 6 weeks, and am not sure how often I'll be able to get on the Downs, and I would like to start with everyone else. Thank you!

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

Just to bring everyone up to date on what's been happening in PMs between Esty (who mods the book forum) and myself. . .

I have given Esty a first and very rough draft of a sticky that will go at the top of the threads list for the forum, in which the purpose of the forum is explained and any and all who wish to are invited to join in the conversation.

I will also be writing up and sending along to her a first post/intro thingee for the Prologue, with which we shall begin the first thread for discussion. I hope to have this available by Monday night, which means we might very well be able to get the ball rolling by, well, early next week (so everyone get out there and read the Prologue!) I will do my best to 'do' what people have been suggesting in that intro post, but if there are comments on the format of it, then pass those along so that future first-posters will be able to craft more useful intros.

I'm hoping that the mods are paying attention to the ideas/concerns about naming the threads for ease of sorting! These are the kinds of really important details that I never seem able to think of.

As to getting the word out -- when the forum officially opens for business, I will start a thread in each of the open forums (Books, Movies, Novices, Quiz
Room etc) to announce its arrival. If anyone can think of other ways to advertise the club, please go ahead and do so (anyone want to volunteer to PM every user????? ) As has been said so many times in this thread already, the key to success with this is going to be getting as many people as possible to participate.

One thing I'm not at all sure about right now is how we are going to bo about signing people up for those first posts to each thread. I hope that I am not earning her wrath by saying this in open forum without first doing so by PM, but I rather suspect that people interested in signing on for the intro post to a specific chapter should contact Esty -- and I getting this right, oh great and mighty Mod of the Books???

(Please, nobody contact her yet -- not until she's confirmed that I have gotten this right.)

[mark12_30]

(so everyone get out there and read the Prologue!)

GLEE!! GLEEE!!! Just in time for my bus ride home!!!!! Wahooooo!

[Imladris]

I am so excited to start this! Fwee!

*makes mental note to read the prologue before leaving on vacation...*

To help with advertising, etc, I could put a link to it in my sig.

[Mister Underhill]

Originally Posted by Fordim Hedgethistle

As to getting the word out -- when the forum officially opens for business, I will start a thread in each of the open forums

With vB3, we have a nifty "Announcements" feature. You need only make one post, which will then be displayed in all fora. When all is in readiness, one of the admins can post the announcement.

[Mad Baggins]

This sounds terribly exciting! *applauds Fordim* I'm game!

[Joy]

I am all for this. There used to be one of these at another board that I am on. I really enjoyed it and would love to do it again here.

[mark12_30]

The Forward AND the Prolog? I read the foreword today and it's got lots of canon vs reader type stuff.







Edit: how does one spell fore-word, anyway? ...

[Gorwingel]

Gosh this sounds cool!
I am amazed that this has all popped up over just a few days!
I will most definitely be taking part just because when you have discussions about written works with others, they usually notice things that sometimes you don't.

It may be a little hard for me to keep up because of all that is going on this summer, and the fact that I will be going to college in the fall (because this does look like it will take awhile).

But I will most definitely give it a shot

This seems like a great way to introduce many of the new "downers" to the book forum just because like others have said we all have the books in common, we have all read the books, and LOTR is also the most understandable of all the works of Tolkien (well that's in my personal opinion).

I look forward to learning many new things about one of my favorite works of literature

[Kath]

Wow this thread is confusing! I had to read the whole thing to find out ifyhis was the "club" or just discussion about it.
But it does look very cool so I'm just here to congratulate whoever had the idea and to beg to be allowed to join in.

[Sirithheruwen]

Sirithheruwen -
Oh, no! That's the one thing I hope will not happen: to have a few people dominate who are the 'regulars' posting in Books. My hope, as I tried to explain in my edit to my last post, is that this should be a wider base of posters, even some folk who don't normally contribute as much to the Books forum.

It seems to me that in a discussion of this type, our personal and immediate response to the text is just as important as any 'scholarly' discussion that draws on outside ideas, other writings etc. What can be most intriguing is learning how other folk see things in their mind, how they feel when they see the characters going through particular situations.

So please, please don't sit back and lurk. Stick your toe in the water, and let people know what the book means to you. In a discussion like this, both approaches --the personal and the so-called scholarly--are equally valid as long as we stay on topic. This is the same thing that Fordim was getting at in one of his earlier posts.

~Child

Oh, I see. I just guess I've never felt really that comfortable in the Books Forum due to the amazing amount of intellect, so I assumed that this would probably the same. But, as my Math teacher says, "When you ASSUME you make an A** out of U and ME." I'm no scholar. However, I shall be very happy to participate in said Book Club.

*takes deep breath*
*plunges!*