Are You Writing Serious Fantasy?

[littlemanpoet]

Welcome, Witchking, and happy deadness to you. There are still ways to flub up when writing your own stuff, actually, but that's another story (pardon the pun). [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img]
What's it about? If you want to know what some of our stories are about, you'll find it here and there on 16 pages' worth...

[NazgulNumberTen]

make that 17...

[Nar]

Elsewhere, I was thinking about getting characters in jeopardy. I was saying, sure the hobbits in the movie are stupid, fire on weathertop and all, but no one gets in trouble by being egregiously stupid in the book ... except for Pippin ... but then I started thinking about Gandalf's leaving his letter with Barliaman, who he KNOWS to have no memory, and the hobbits resting on the Barrowdowns (home! *sniff*) when they feel its dangerousness and have been told not to tarry on the way. I can tolerate it, though, because the characters seem to wise up later, and acts of unmotivated stupidity become vanishingly rare. I think.

So, here's the question: how do you get your characters into interesting trouble? How do you put them in jeopardy?

There's something to be said for character's making mistakes that put them in danger. If the mistakes are typical of the character, then he/she is more strongly defined as a character, and it supports those faults that keep a character from becoming too perfect. (though I think quirks also work well for that) Trouble, danger, it's most compelling if it feels like it has to happen, if it comes from deep in the set up, characters, or world.

Random bad luck has no resonance, it isn't rooted in the story. On the other hand, egregious stupidity for purposes of the plot is very annoying! So do your characters come into danger more from bad luck, more from their own faults that they just can't resist living out, or from a mixture? How do you strike a balance?

[ August 24, 2002: Message edited by: Nar ]

[Feanaro]

It depends upon your character type. For instance, it would be perfectly acceptable for a ranger or warrior type character to seek danger out for themselves--after all, it's what they do. Of course, not everyone falls into this category. Personally, I don't really have to worry about this problem, because the majority of the characters making up the party are warrior types, or types that don't mind knocking a few baddies over the head every now and then. In this case, the character (I only have one) that doesn't wish to enter the fray, has to come along for the ride regardless, and inevitably gets drawn into the conflict. Is this random bad luck? Yes, but its more realistic. Readers can understand how this wimpy character was thrown into the cold grasp of danger.

As an overall device, using random danger depends on your world. If your world is dark and mysterious, rocked with war that leaves many dark folk roaming around the wilderness--chances are, your characters are going to run into some of them. I use random bad luck more often than not, but I strive to make it believable.

As for the use of stupidity, I have to agree that I find it annoying after awhile. There are other forms of this that I find more tolerable, going along the lines of: stupidity because of _________. Pride is a common filler, or arrogance. I find these to be more tolerable than a mere lack of common sense. I don't use this one very often, but when I do, it is usually based off of pride (but after I use it for a particular character, I never use it again for them). I usually only use this one for the "bosses" so to speak. One character underestimating the strength/power/ability of his opponent, usually costing him his life. I will readily admit that this gets annoying too after the hundreth time, but I suppose the real key to this post is moderation. The balance I would say, is in the careful moderation of the two, using them sparingly, and only when they can be believed.

[ August 25, 2002: Message edited by: Feanaro ]

Thank you for the welcome, littlemanpoet. It's basicly about an evil... thing... who's the last of his kind because he killed them all so he could take over the world alone. He leads an army of the regular stuff. Stupid, big, strong savages(several kinds of them). And that's all I've got so far. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[littlemanpoet]

Witchking: You're welcome! have another!

|_|)

So you have an evil he-thing and a bunch of morlockian stooges. Is the he-thing your protagonist, or your set-up guy for the protagonist?

Nar & Feanaro: (Hmmm, notice a certain similarity in the monikers?)

[H]ow do you get your characters into interesting trouble? How do you put them in jeopardy?

Well, since my story is already complete and now in revision number thirteen-thousand-eight-hundred-and-twenty-six, I feel I can answer this with some definition.

My coin is ruling passion. The heads side is the positive, the tails side is the negative. O.'s passion is adventure. His positive is boldness, his negative is recklessness. W.'s passion is personal self-esteem. His negative is passiveness and self-absorbing pride, his positive is ---- hmmm ----- perhaps self-discovery and the resulting growth of character; needless to say, he's in seriously big trouble for most of the story... [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img]

Recklessness and passiveness can cause all kinds of problems, needless to say. Conflict, conflict, conflict, both interior and exterior. It's bound to cause an increase in recklessness and passiveness, or, on the other hand, boldness and self-discovery. These are the examples just from my two main characters. Each one of my supporting cast (which is getting humongous) has hisher own set.

[Lila Bramble]

Jepordy...jepordy...well, there isn't a whole lot in the Lost Tales of Middle-Earth since there's a 'wizard's insticnt's' always in there from Lila. But then again, there are some times when Lila's foolish little hobbit side comes in to play and she dosen't mind herself or anything for just that one second where all the trouble comes tumbling in...

And I agree, having all the times of peril caused by one stupid person cane be quite annyoing indeed. Sometimes I make the 'leader' make a bad choice (just for once((lol!))...) and everyone else falls into the bad situation, or jepordy. Then everyone gets mad at the one who made the decision and then they can't stop bickering enough to try and get themselves out of the thicket! Sounds quite real to me.

And in 'The Light of War' (my novel) there are many times of jepordy, whether its a plot gone wrong, a mistake, or just not a good enough hiding spot when there are ten huge black knights are chasing you, it all turns out into a bad situatin for our holy knight, Locke. And after they make him sacrifice his elf friend to the Devil, boy are they in trouble...

*Ahem* anyway, anyone else have something to contribute on realistic jepordy in our fantasy sories/novels?

[Saxony Tarn]

also sprach Nar:

"How do you get a character in trouble..."

oh, ho -- Nar, whose thoughts on the latest postings of my tale i eagerly await, you have opened a can of worms here. Allow me to bait my hook and do a little fly-fishing.

Basically, given how autonomous my characters are, i wind them up and let them go. i need not lead them into trial and tribulation, they're perfectly capable of finding it -- Hell, in Boromir's case with "Trust Me", getting into the occasional tiff with Iarangol over who exactly is in charge here, or interpreting Rhigellan's teasing at full face value plus interest, MAKING it -- themselves.

Keeping such a dynamic going is also difficult, as if it trades on the same old foil for twenty chapters, it gets abrasive in five. As you, meaning Nar, Lila, LMP & anyone else who's been drafted to read this, will eventually deduce, Denial is a river to dwarf the Anduin, and Bor' spends a good part of the story hip-deep in it, but with regards to more than just one issue, and each one he discovers and deals with is a step out for him. (although you'd think that by about Chapter Twenty, he'd start to notice something cold, wet, and possessed of a none-too-shabby undercurrent soaking through his clothes...) How to keep the dynamic going on that one? Save some of those issues for later by not hitting the reader with all of them. (Okay, he's almost reached the rocks -- oh no, here comes the flood tide! Sort of an, okay, sport, now if you can just get over this you'll be clear...)

Some of my other characters would freely blame their maladies on their luck, but if they ever learned from those experiences & avoided all potentially trying situations, i wouldn't have stories!

s.t.

[Shadowstrife911]

Well my number one rule for writing characters is... "Describe your characters through actions not words". I created this rule for myself a long time ago because I absolutley hate it when an author tells me the traits of an individual.

So, according to my reasoning every event must contribute to the character of the individual and explore some aspect of themself. If the protagionist is going to get into trouble, it is going to usually be caused by a character fault that becomes evident throughout the event.

Again, I can't stress enough how much I hate to see authors sit down and explain their characters in long, drawn out paragraphs. This makes me very sad and destroys the sense of discovery, you, as a reader feel when you find out something about a character.

[ August 27, 2002: Message edited by: Shadowstrife911 ]

[Eol]

Shadow: there has to be some sort of set up for that character. Without some sort of description no matter how detailed has to take place. Because when the spoke event happens, the reaction of the character will make sense.

It also depends on the author's writing style whether they like to describe everything at once or describe when it is necassary with a gradual cresendo to the climax of the character's developoing persona.

Description in moderation, as it depends of what you are going for. Less detail during battle aids in creating a tempo speed. More detail during a personal situation adds to the turmoil that maybe taking place.


I would agree with the above comments about characters creating their own trouble. It has come to a point with my characters where i know them enough to where I know instantly what they will and will not do in a given situation. you know what is out of character. Most of the time,the given character will create situations for themselves based on the interactions with other characters. However this is harder to achieve with an RPG, as I have learned with much fustration at time.

[ August 27, 2002: Message edited by: Eol ]

[Shadowstrife911]

Eol, yes that is true but when an author describes the character so much at the first encounter that the joy of discovery is destroyed it kills some of the wonder. I'd say this has become a pet peeve of mine because I don't like to have that sense of wonder scooped out from under me.

For instance, Tolkien's style is something that I truly admire for how he describes his characters. His descriptions are just right and allow the reader to wonder how the character will act in certain situations. Later, we learn more about the character through the trials and tribulations they go through. The way he writes has a nice smooth flow, and he doesn't go on too many rants about how the character acts.

Take Bilbo for example, at first I thought he was just a lazy-little hobbit but throughout the book he proved himself to be a small, lovable hero. (if you take the entire story to be truth [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img])

I hope this helped clarify my position, I'm not sure I'm describing a 'character rant' well enough so I'll try to find some excerpts to explain a little better.

[ August 27, 2002: Message edited by: Shadowstrife911 ]

[Eol]

Exampled would be appreciated. I have yet to really encounter what you speak of. The detail that bothers me is the the detail that lingers way too long on one item. For example, jake whyte spends close the three pages describing how the soldier got stabbed throught the groin with a spear( or something to that nature) more detail then I really needed to know! That is the type of description I do not want to read.

[littlemanpoet]

ShadowStife and Eol, hear hear to both of you. I think you are both making very good points and not really disagreeing with each other. I also hate it when the wonder is 'scooped' out from under me in a story (nice way of putting it, sh-st). I also think Eol has a point that in some cases getting into the mind of a character is really quite important, if you're writing that kind of story.

[Saxony Tarn]

ooh -- a nice deep debate going on here! Welcome to all the new faces; this round's on me...

As for getting into a character's head, with reference to my previous posts (and the bit of story i posted some pages back) i'm just going to sit and grin while i see how long it takes ol' BD the Stubborn to quit arguing with his ego, conscience, and id and figure out that his objective is to dredge the river. Since it was INTENDED to have its intellectual delvings, my main concern is that it's clear to the reader that those POV shifts are coming from the inside-the-skull cam & microphone so he/she doesn't get confused. Ideally, it should read like you're eavesdropping on his inner deliberations.

Doubly so, if while you're reading it, you entertain the notion that, yeah, that character i've purloined might actually behave in X, Y, or Z manner when confronted with A B & C situations, then i've done my job right.

But three pages of describing ONE injury -- i think we have a new record! (Beat out Tolkien's one page to describe a tree!) Especially if it was the author describing it for any reason OTHER than the coroner's report...

a toast!

|_|) <-- skoal!

>Are any of you writing serious fantasy?
Yes I am.

>If so, how have you dealt with the temptation to be imitative of Tolkien?
I try not to imitate but I rekon some of my ideas may have come fom others fantasy writers' stories. You can never be too sure where your' ideas come from.

>How long have you been working on your story, and why?
Well I have written many stories but have not completed them. The one I am writing now I am sticking to. I reckon I started eight months ago.

>What pitfalls have you faced and how have you overcome them - or not?
Sometimes I just cannot think where to go in the story next, to overcome this I leave the story for a while but not as long as two days. That helps me think and at night I dream of all kinds of fantasy.
Also sometimes, though rarely I fall into the world of Tolkien but I solve that somehow.

So hopefully, if I complete this story it will be a success. Thankyou for reading.
xx

[Shadowstrife911]

Eol - Well, have you read any books by Terry Brooks? For me his descriptions of internal character deliberations (while good) seems to scoop away wonder and become character rants.

Lets compare this type of character description to say mythological stories (Greek, Norse, whichever) and they tend to describe the character through actions. This distinction between "Through Action" and "Through Words" (Not words as in speech) to me is an integral part when your writing. Concentrating too much on character deliberations (except if its what your going for in a more philosophical story) can prove to add a negative aspect to the story.

I just thought of another example, in Return of the King when Frodo is nearing Mount Doom, Tolkien uses Frodo's behavior & action to describe feelings. Becoming sluggish, tired, worn and carrying a great burden are all descriptions we as readers see and then decided that the protagionist has gone through a major shift in attitude.

or example, jake whyte spends close the three pages describing how the soldier got stabbed through the groin with a spear( or something to that nature) more detail then I really needed to know! That is the type of description I do not want to read.

Ummm, ouch. Was this a coroner's report?

Anyway, it may be that I am just a picky person or that I am trying to recreate/rediscover the wonder I experienced during LOTR. But nothing can beat the feeling you have when you know a character through how he acts instead of how the author is telling you how he acts. Its like going on a rollercoaster, the feeling is not the same when someone tells you about it. True feeling comes through experience.

[ August 29, 2002: Message edited by: Shadowstrife911 ]

[ August 29, 2002: Message edited by: Shadowstrife911 ]

[Naaramare]

Getting into a character's head . . . ahh, the wonders of 1stPersonPOV. ^~ I spend my entire story in my heroine's head. However, this leaves the other characters as something of a mystery at times. Barrels of fun!

[Eol]

For some stupid reason, I did not understand you earlier, however now with that understanding, agree with you stand point.

I have read Terry Brook and think it is a farce! It was good starting it, but then it was not developed well after while, it just place sucked like a vaacum cleaner!

Thank you for the exampled ,they were well done!

As to the corroner's report, the apotasy found that he was stab through the groin with spear, but whom had done such a deed it unknown... [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] No it was not, it was first person/third and as it happened. Can we saw extreme pain?

[ August 29, 2002: Message edited by: Eol ]

[Cúdae]

Yes, I have been writing serious fantasy for about 3 years now. I started before I'd read Tolkien, so I can honestly say that nothing I write is copying him in any way. I have elves, but they incredibly different. I have dwarves, but they are more garden gnome-ish. I have humans, and well, they're human. I also have my people, the Ynara Nahal. They are my biggest pitfall, I think, because they are the oldest people, created by the gods to rule over the feuding elves and greedy humans. They are aided by my dwarves, who are pure of heart. But as I continue writing, I realize that they are too perfect, so I am corrupting them. Now, the largest fault of the immortal Ynara is that they are too willing to deal out death.
One of my biggest problems was cursing the Ynara--with something. The something was I couldn't think of, so I read a few more books and tried to collaborate and draw from them. The result was mortal weaknesses. Meaning, they can be killed or poisoned or become ill. But they are still the Ynara in my universe.
My plot was also extremely hard to make. It was almost ridiculous to create. At first I started with a girl, born to mortal parents, buit immortal herself. Then I scrapped that and went with the idea of a servant messenger, Ashon. His task would be to take the Dark Knife created by a fallen dark lord and cleanse it the waters of the River Newval, in the land of the Dead.
Besides that, I want my story to stand out. So I am creating a story in which good will fail and evil prevail. That's another problem for me, I need to make the consequences of evil winning this whole whatever and make it believable today. Yeah, just a little confusing.
My other problems were language, culture, time, and races of people. The languages I have started. The language of the Ynara: Siltic, of the dwarves: Mullan, of the elves in the north: Ywerae, the elves in the mountains: Talik, and the elves in the sout kingdom: Ylmar. Siltic is almost complete, as is Ywerae. I am letting the cultures evolve themselves.
Overall, my largest problem has been the backbone. The history is a problem because in my world that I created, I see different places. The places the gods created without any stain on them, but the Ynara, Elves, Dwarves, and Humans stained. It's all getting very confusing and it doesn't help that I'm a very unorganized person! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[Saxony Tarn]

Re: Character Rants:

Eol & Shadowstrife, i really like that term. May i quote you?

:: sends drinks your way until you're happy and agreeable ::

Good! Many thanks! (Now to go back and edit BD to make sure he's not crossing that ranting line on his way through Purgatory -- about the only premise where such a technique would be called for, methinks, but still, in order to be effective, shouldn't be overdone...)

Hmm... overdone...

A friend of mine had a character in a graphic novel she wanted to draw whose motto was "if it's worth doing, it's worth overdoing". But more often than not, it's not.

Anyone got any infamous examples of Overkill on an author's part that they'd like to advise us to avoid? That three-page-injury is a good start...

s.t.

[Eol]

*Eol accepts drink gladly!*

Well how about a ten page *graphic* love scene( graphic as in porn graphic)? Mind you this is not a romance novel. This is a story about people traveling. The above mentioned scene terribly disrupted the flow of the story. This happened not just once, but multiple times! Forgive me as the book and its author has escaped me.

You can use whatever you want, but be kind!

[ August 29, 2002: Message edited by: Eol ]

[Saxony Tarn]

Woof!

i think we have a strong contender for what i'm going to term the Rand Award in honor of her ten-page speeches that many readers confess to skipping (rants by characters?)

Anyone else have a contestant in the Enough is Too Much Freestyle Open?

s.t.

[dragongirlG]

Ah, Ayn Rand. Her books are massive.

I personally cannot confess to having skipped anything in a book. I try to read everything and if I fall asleep doing so I go back and reread it when I have more consciousness (I usually read right before I go to bed -- ah, I'll never forget that time I fell asleep reading The Scarlet Letter and fell in love with the book afterward. Anyway....) The only skip I can think of is that time when Winston is reading out Goldstein's book in 1984, hmm... (sorry if I spoiled anything)

Re characters in trouble:
I just, er...this may not be exactly what the topic is, but may I quote Naaramare from a few pages before?

People. Aren't. Simple. Ever.

The situations really depend on the characters, don't they? And if you make your characters complex (even just a little bit) something will happen, a situation must occur in some way. So...if you have really great characterization (of course this is a matter of opinion) then the situations will be well-written, right? If you don't keep the characters simple or trite then the situations won't be too cliched, and the egregious stupidity and Mary-Sueism won't occur.

Sorry if this way off-topic or what...

P.S. Welcome to all the new members! I hope to hear from you all in the discussions!

[ August 29, 2002: Message edited by: dragongirlG ]

[Lila Bramble]

As some of you MIGHT have guessed, this discussion about charactersis making me so excited, becayse most of us here who read my posts know I love my characters!

I love how Saxony gets into POV's, but I'm usually the one who gives little tibits of thoughts rather than going inside their head. I like (before said) for the actions to show how they feel, and most of my characters are emotional, so its fun. And with characters like Sam and Lila (fanfiction) you get to let them speak everything they think, and this way you release a bit of their own personality while unleashing the character's they're speaking to by their reaction.

I wouldn't go into a few pages about their personality, before said, its not very fun to read, and you must always put yourself in the readers posistion. So while you might explain reasons for different actions your characters perform, it isnt great in many opinions to create a perfectly all explained personality.

[Shadowstrife911]

i think we have a strong contender for what i'm going to term the Rand Award in honor of her ten-page speeches that many readers confess to skipping (rants by characters?)

Anyone else have a contestant in the Enough is Too Much Freestyle Open?

I can't recall the specific name of the book but one of Frank Herbert's Dune books could be a fierce contender. One of them is practically all focused on the philosophical and less on plot. Although I believe this is what Frank was going for with this installment of the series. (Unless he went crazy during this time in his life?)

[Tirned Tinnu]

Shadowstrife911- I believe you are right. Herbert was writing to establish the philosophy and politic of Dune, and disregarded his characters most of the time. I disliked that style. It's the one and only time where I actaully skipped portions of a book! I looked for the word "Harkonnen" and skipped the spots where I saw the family mentioned. I was much more interested in Paul, and Duncan...

How do you think Paul's character faired in the last book? I felt that he was turned into a monster, emotionally as well as physically. That didn't sort well with me. I couldn't understand how Paul's mentality could change so vastly! How did he go from an adventurous boy to an obnoxious worm? Was it the Spice affecting his mind? Why didn't it do so earlier in the series? Why so arrogant, so late?
Ah....one day perhaps I'll know the answers. Now you've got me wondering if I should reread the books again. (NO! Auugggh! I have my hands full just catching up on 10 the last years of Tolkien books! *gasp* <<<Thud>>>.)

[ August 30, 2002: Message edited by: Tirned Tinnu ]

[littlemanpoet]

Welcome to AYWSF, Cudae and Tirned Tinnu! Have a cup of wonder on me.

|_|) <-----

Cudae: I can relate to most of the troubles you've been running into. Just one remonstration: are you sure you want to go the route of evil winning? That goes against the very nature of fantasy, as explicated by Tolkien. Fantasy at its best leads us to eu-catastrophe, that is, the sudden reversal from everything being grim and tragic to, against all odds and against all the evidence, the good and the right and the free being saved from slavery and destruction. To have evil win is to create tragic drama. All the rules are different. Just my 2 cents.

As for the Freestyle Rand Award, how about Stephen R. Donaldson for taking us back into the self-absorbed "I can't do anything about this, I won't do anything about this" broken record of Thomas Covenant's thought life? Granted, he didn't spend tend straight pages on it but he would go half a page to a page on it over and over again until you just got sick of the guy and wanted him killed by the next Urvile.

[Eol]

If the author did not intend to annoy the reader with the dialoge, then it is a bit of overkill. A contender of the rand award. In a way I look forward to see more, but at the same time, I do not. It is said to see this in published writer let alone ameuters.

[Saxony Tarn]

LMP -- Covenant gets an Honorable Mention at the very least for that! i read the first of that series at about the same impressionable time in my life as i was reading Tolkien, ElfQuest (not the fic here, the graphic novel), Conan, Elric... and i do remember the guy's initial reticence to being a hero...

Uff-da! You mean it lasted ALL THE WAY THROUGH THE SERIES??? no wonder i never finished it...

B)

You've got the com, Sulu -- i'm headed out for vacation!

[Lila Bramble]

Well, its official, I'm writing a novel. I know for sure I'll be editing a lot since I'll learn more as I write, but its all a part or writing. Its titled 'The Light of War,' but that might change. If anyone wants to know about it, I can post a description.

Also, I was wondering, has anyone here actually had a novel publish? If they have, would they share the length and difficulty of the process of publishing?

[littlemanpoet]

Lila, I think we're all aspiring here. But I went to a writers' conference back in April and posted what I learned about publishing on this thread. Look on page 1, April 21, 2002, 8:06 a.m. Hope it helps.

[Morquesse]

Greetings, people! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] I have not posted here in a while, but I am back! And I am actually writing a little bit now, and I have a question: how do you write a bit, like as if the character saw something for a brief moment (or saw something that he did not realize was there), and make where it startles the reader? You know, like a jump scene in a movie?
Thank you, [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]
~M

[Eol]

Now that is the 64,ooo dollar question. What I have done to think of an opening as a painting or a piece or artwork. It starts out blank and build it up with colors.

What type of mood do you want? The type of words have "moods" attached to them. Example, describe a ripe piece of fruit. You can sweet or you can say sucullant. It can also be as rotten or shriveled.

Words can also be used to dictate pace. The fewer the words, the fast the pace. Too much detail can bog the pace. Example: Joe drew his sword when threated by another soldier. Charging he brought his blade down on the green clothed shoulders of the enemy.....

another example: The deer froze in step. Its large dark eyes focused on the man unsure whether it was friend or foe. The late afternoon light flitered through the trees dappling the dark coat with white spots as though it was a fawn. A small rack of horns had a few scraps of velvet dangling exposing the newly harden bone grow underneath....

This help?

[ September 02, 2002: Message edited by: Eol ]

[littlemanpoet]

Morquesse: I actually have this in the first chapter of my story. I described the thing from my protagonist's perspective, described a little bit more to explode the first perception, then describe the reality which shocks the protagonist. He expects to see a fish in the water, and it does resemble a fish after a fashion, but turns out to be hair, and beneath the hair is....

[Morquesse]

Thank you very much, Eol and lmp! The suggestions did help, though I am thinking that I need to experiment with them.
Thank you, [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]
~M

[Eol]

Glad to be of service! Writing is always a continous experiment. Always trying to find the right combination of words to create the right mood at the right time.

[ September 02, 2002: Message edited by: Eol ]

[Saxony Tarn]

well said!

about the only thing i could add, Morquesse, is that TIMING IS EVERYTHING.

by this i mean that, at the end of that description is something you're not expecting. Example of something like this, i have in my fanfic 'a certain Tolkien character' believed dead but actually returning home alive, climbing up the last stair to find the door to his chambers barred. He & his companions remove the bar and i proceed to give a brief overview of the layout of the suite... then hit you at the end of the paragraph with the "minor detail" that all the furnishings have been removed. (Gee, Boromir, they're really happy to see you, aren't they?) This then allows me to have them go search that level for a storeroom, and i can space my description of the furnishings over their extracting them from storage and setting them up (so as not to qualify for an Overkill award) while a certain other Tolkien character gets in a few good lines and yet another waits for his cue to drop in on his way down from a palantir-gazing session and demand to know who's causing all this racket.

In 25 words or less, set up the environment in which we're liable to overlook this little technicality, then hit us with it. Once we've stopped reeling, you can expand on it at your leisure. Of course you don't want to overdo this technique with the wrong audience -- some more fragile readers may get whiplash! Me, i have a large collection of Sapir & Murphy's Destroyer books (the literary equivalent of unfiltered smokes and moonshine) so i'm quite used to it -- and you can probably quess that they're old hands at this trick.

s.t.

[Nar]

Yes, excellent technique, ST, describe it when you need it, and unleash regular tricky author maneuvers to make sure the reader stays alert. Heh heh heh ... the author sneaks up on the peacfully meditating reader ... just HAD to try out that taser, didn't you! The startle reflex: work that heartbeat! Beats aerobics.

I've got a question. I was just posting about the orcs, who I've always felt very sorry for-- the uglies just had no chance-- how is an orc supposed to reform? Orc to Elf archer: 'But I'm a GOOD orc!' Elf archer: '*twang!* You are now!' (Yes, I know, technically, elves are supposed to accept surrender. Still doesn't mean they'd listen to the higher aspirations of an orc.) Sauron, on the other hand, I don't feel sorry about at all-- 'Oh, the poor misunderstood godlike maia, he just couldn't help but sew wanton malice and mayhem. Boredom is SUCH a terrible thing.' --no, I don't think so.

So, what do you think, is it better to have a purely hateful villain, or a villain with reasons (like being MADE wrong) that readers can feel somewhat sorry for? Would you rather have both types? We've touched on this in previous pages of this thread, (Nazgul Number Nine was eloquent on shades of grey in a character), so let me extend the question: What TYPES of reasons to go wrong or stay wrong would you buy in a bad guy?

[Saxony Tarn]

Industrial-strength Can-O'-Worms, eh Nar?

given what grey-shaded guy i've been dealing w/ lately, i'll hold my reply on the villainly virtues until others have had a chance.

i will however cast a vote for two fistfuls of the 'bad guys' from the Destroyer, such as their delightfully reuseable Mafia dons with their individualizing idiosyncracies (Don Pubescio and the eternal oil-stained bag of REALLY HOT chili peppers he is always snacking on, even in the limo) as well as several dozen lower-level operatives who step over to the Dark Side of the Force for any number of motivations and get one last too-brief chance to consider the error of their ways before getting squashed in some picturesque manner (you could say, anyone Remo doesn't kill in this book has to come back for at least one sequel!)

s.t.

[littlemanpoet]

Nar: This comment probably belongs on the thread you named, but it may bear on this discussion: ever consider that orcs like being orcs? For the sake of comparison, I remember the bullies back in all years of school prior to college - yes - maybe they had psychosomatic and social reasons for why they were the way they were, but could it possibly be that they just liked causing trouble, pain, humiliation and all that? That keeps me from pitying orcs. Haradrim are another matter.

By way of a more general reply, I prefer to have both kinds of villains, and do in my story. M. is the shaped villainess, L. is the arch-villain.

The types of reasons depend on the story. I can't imagine what more could be said. I'll have to leave that for better minds than mine.