Food for Maiar Thought

[Beren87]

A question came up in chat this evening (strange place, it was actually Tolkien chat, for once), about whether or not Maiar have to eat. We were discussing on what the Balrog of Moria ate, considering they were in, well, Moria. Did he chow down on those fearful Orcs?

Then we continued on, we know that Gandalf drank and smoke, but did he eat? And if he did, was it because he truly needed nourishment, or was it only because he need to keep up appearances (Superman). Whenever food was called for him in Minas Tirith, he generally post-poned it until the latest possible time, which raises suspicion.

Now, were there any instances of Maiar in The Silm eating? Please list any that are found.

We know Saruman had a large store of food, but it seems all that is mentioned is just that of the finest stuff, especailly pipe-weed, which raises the question for me, did they eat to sustain or for enjoyment?

Surely some of the time periods shown show that Maiar could go for extended periods of time without food, such as the fall of Gandalf and his rise to the top Durin's Stair, that was supposedly to have taken an incredibly long time, and he's not going to be able to eat while on a mountain top shooting white bolts at a balrog.

Well, any thoughts?

[ July 23, 2003: Message edited by: Beren87 ]

[lindil]

Just to start of with a monkey-wrench...
Gandalf orders heartily from Bilbo during the Unexpectd Party.

In HoM-E X, in the darkening of Valinor I believe, when the festival prior to the theft of the Silmarils is going on, there is I think some reference or footneote that explains that once a year the Ainur partook of the fruits of the Aman, more as a symbol than anything else.

I think the Isatari were a special case as they were on a mission and they deliberately took on restrictive guidelines and a humbling appearance/raiment, so concurrently there needs for sustenance may well have been different.

So I would suggest seperating the question into Isatri and non-Istari. Not that there is neecessarily enough info to answer conclusively either way.

But the above Ainur quote would I imagine apply to all Valar and Amia that were not burdened as were the Istari.

Another Hobbit quote comes to mind, 'for he had up until that point cheifly eaten and drunk the most... [ok well a paraphrase].

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

Hmmm, I would probably say that certain Ainur, such as those that had taken on the restrictions of living as a Child of Illuvitar in Middle-Earth (e.g. Melian, the Istari...) would perhaps have been in need of nourishment for bodily strength. This said, I think it likely that these Maiar, and the Istari in particular, would have been able to go without if they needed to as food nutrition is, I should think, not an inherrent Ainurian need as it is for those of more earthly race. Which is why Maiar might need to when they impose Middle-Earth upon themselves.

Yeah, apart from Gandalf and Saruman, and probably Melian, I can't think of any other Maia that provides an example. Which fits in with the above theory, I spose. Unless it is Goldberry, but, was she a Maia, she too could have been said to have taken on the impositions of Earth through being coupled with Tom -- clearly something involved with the natural world. Its laws he must follow, and so Goldberry perhaps with him.

[The X Phial]

My opinion, not as learned as Lindil's, is that it depended on incarnation. I believe they could choose to incarnate in forms that required food, or not. The Istari did for the sake of appearing more normal. Huan most likely ate, and Smaug ate ponies and threatened to eat dwarves, though he might not have had to.

[Beren87]

It likely seems to me that in Valinor, there was no real need of food or drink, but was purely taken on for pleasure. For it, was indeed pleasurable to them we must assume.

However, once one stepped into Middle-Earth, food was needed. Perhaps they didn't need it as often as non-maiar did, but they still needed it occasionally. Rejuviation as it were.

And, I assume, we're totally leaving out Valar from this, as it is generally assumed they didn't need to eat. They wouldn't have time to eat while shaping ME and such, obviously.

[Sharkû]

First, I'd like to refer to obloquy's Ealar essay here, since it spares me the task of looking at the sources he used again.

"Pengolodh also cites the opinion that if a 'spirit' (that is, one of those not embodied by creation) uses a hröa for the furtherance of its personal purposes, or (still more) for the enjoyment of bodily faculties, it finds it increasingly difficult to operate without the hröa. The things that are most binding are those that in the Incarnate have to do with the life of the hröa itself, its sustenance and its propagation. Thus eating and drinking are binding, but not the delight in beauty of sound or form. Most binding is begetting or conceiving." (O-K, my emphasis)

Obloquy draws the sound conclusion that "Incarnation seems to always be involuntary, except in the case of the Istari, and perhaps Melian. The Istari were Maiar who were incarnated by the Valar as part of their mission, which was to rouse Middle-earth in defiance of Sauron. Melian’s incarnation was probably due primarily to her wedding Thingol and subsequently conceiving an incarnate child. After Thingol’s death, she abandoned her physical body and returned to Aman." (Ealar and incarnation)

Huan, stated to be maiarin in MT, and not certainly rebuked as being so in the later note, would most likely have had a rather high degree of incarnation, since he was also affected by the ruling of limited use of speech (for whatever reason exactly).

What the above O-K quote does not say is whether becoming incarnated by one use of the body would incorporate the other bodily needs as a consequence, even if the being did not use the hroa in that way. We cannot say whether an eala who never ate or drank would need to do so when he/she begot a child. At any rate, it seems highly likely if the form the being incarnates into was one which normally had such needs. Incarnating as a Child of Eru (such as Melian did on a biological level at least, or she would not have been able to beget Thingol's child) would presumably bring the bodily needs of the respective race with it.

As for the istari at least, we know as per UT, Istari essay:
"but clad in bodies of as of Men, real and not feigned, but subject to the fears and pains and weariness of earth, able to hunger and thirst and be slain;"

[ July 23, 2003: Message edited by: Sharkû ]

[Osse]

I seem to remember in the Silm. that the Valar certainly held feasts, with some of the Maia attending. As was posting earlier this was probably for pleasure rather than for nourishment. Though as Gwaihir put it, the Istari needed food to sustain them; they had been given physically non-powerful frames as houses for their spirits, and were forbidden to rival Sauron's strength with their own...their bodies were still just that of old men. They needed to eat.

I suppose that Sauron, when in physical form, also must of needed to eat, but it is difficult to imagine the dark-lord ordering a fruit salad!

[ July 23, 2003: Message edited by: Osse ]

[lindil]

Sharku, thanks indeed for referencing that thread. I missed a classic!

Jallanite left us with a similar one here, although it was originally on the Downs, I am not sure where it lives anymore.

Anyway Obloquy's offering and the following discussion do indeed clear up many questions.

Unfortunately, this whole discussion highlights the bizarre place 'The Hobbit' occupies in the Canon.

It is really as different from LotR and the Later Silm work as is Lost Tales. And really can only be considered in many lights in a sort of semi-canon way.

[lindil]

I suppose that Sauron, when in physical form, also must of needed to eat

While this seems plausible on the face of it, other than the Istari [an exception to normal Maiarian incarnation] and Melian [a serious exception] I do not think just because a Maia had a body meant it needed to eat. It was a spiritual being [fallen or not] and the body for it was said to be like clothes, even if they became [as the fallen ones did] addicted or habituated to the clothes, continuing the anlogy [from the O-K I believe] Do clothes need to eat?

I think not.

They were physically present in the world in a way even elves were not, so they existed within it with far less limitation.

Welcome to the Downs Osse!

[ July 23, 2003: Message edited by: lindil ]

[Amarie of the Vanyar]

In HoME 10, 'Morgoth's Ring' it is said

Morgoth, at the time of the War of the Jewels had become permanently 'incarnate'
VII, Notes on motives in the Silmarillion

Then, as a fully incarnate, it is likely that Morgoth was the only Vala who needed to eat.

[lindil]

Amarie, I am inclined to see the the Ainur [or at least The Valar, and , fallen or not as spiritually and physically 'self sufficient' whether incarnate or not.

Their spirits are so powerful that their bodies 'feed' of them. In a more powerful way than the Elves fea do to their own hroa [in O-K?].

This is my current thought and it mostly based on how I exrapolate the fact that the Silm/X states that the Ainur at festival time ate to re-inforce a symbol[ic relationship] they did not have too. Even Manwe and Varda who presumably along with at least Aule, would have spent a lot of time icarnate.

[FingolfintheBold]

Gandalf also seems in need of sustanance in the Hobbit after following Beorn's bear tracks(mmmmmmmmmmm....bearrr track...).
He wouldnt even talk untill he had "eaten two whole loaves with mounds of butter and clotted cream, and drank a full quart of mead". This seems to point toward him being limited by physical need. We could also say, "Do mair need to sleep, do they need to drink." Mair in general, probably not, but in the case of the Istari, almost certainly.

[Finwe]

I think that for the Ainur, just as assuming a fana wasn't necessary to "walk amid the living," they also didn't really need to eat or drink in their "unclothed" forms. They probably drew on the Flame Imperishable as a sort of energy source, take Gandalf as an example. When he says that he is the Wielder of the Flame of Anor, I'm assuming that he is talking about the Flame Imperishable mingled with the Light of Valinor (which we know is used as a sort of weapon by the Calaquendi, like what happened at the Ford of Bruinen with Glorfindel (the whole white/shiny thing)). He must have used the Flame Imperishable as a sort of energy source to "fuel" his fight with the Balrog. Each Maia probably has a different capacity to draw on that, the more powerful ones can draw on it more, and the lesser ones can't draw on it as much. Perhaps that explains their apparent lack of need of sustenance.

[Iarwain]

Personally, I would leave Bombadil out of this discussion. It complicates things a bit too much. But for maiar in general, I would say that since they are ultimately deathless, nourishment would not be an issue at all.

Iarwain

[Osse]

agreed, we cannot compare Tom to the Maia, as there is proof he is not one, if you want to start a new thread on whether Tom eats, do it, it would be quite interesting!

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

You don't think you're getting a little bit obsessed by any chance, Osse? [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img] But I think Tom, as a sort of exemplification of the Universe or at least a natural being thereof, would need to obey the natural laws that were set down for its governence. If he was something other than this, then who knows? But he seems to eat. Goldberry serves food while the Hobbits are there.

Fëar, spirits, would certainly exist without any nourishment at all; probably drawing as you say, Finwe, on the Flame. It is the body itself that needs nutrition, as the body is a work and creation of the Earth and obeys its laws.

[Finwe]

Now that I think about it, if the Flame Imperishable is like one huge energy source, I can see why Morgoth was so keen to get his hands on it. In the Valaquenta, it is said that he often went into the Void, to search for the F-I, but didn't find it since it was with Iluvatar. That could explain his apparently aimless search.

[Beren87]

He wouldnt even talk untill he had "eaten two whole loaves with mounds of butter and clotted cream, and drank a full quart of mead". This seems to point toward him being limited by physical need

I think that was just an excuse not to have to talk until he was ready to. Seems a bit extravagent, anyway. Plus, it's The Hobbit, so things get weird.

I think lindil has generally everything. The Valar didn't really need to eat, that's assumed. The Istari were more..super-human than anything, so they probably needed to eat, but not nearly as often as men or elves. Melian seemed to have to eat, so she's the odd elf out.

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

That could explain his apparently aimless search.

I always took it that the aim of his search was to find the Flame Imperishable.