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08-03-2003, 10:50 AM | #81 | ||||||
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[ August 03, 2003: Message edited by: Nils ]
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08-03-2003, 11:18 AM | #82 | |
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This is just my crazy idea. I haven't had much sleep recently, so it may be far from an intellectual response. [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img] Cheers
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08-04-2003, 02:44 AM | #83 | |||||
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Great thread. I will attempt to swim with the big fish in here.
Good = that which is consistant with the will of Eru. Evil = that which is not consistant with the will of Eru. Therefore, the ONLY thing that is inherently evil is to choose something that is not consistant with the will of Eru. Saucepan Man's comments were in the same vein. So does the fact that Eru created a condition (free will) in which created beings could chose to go against his will mean he has evil within his being? I say no. The simple introduction of the possibility of choice is what opened the wide vista of evil. That does not mean Eru himself made evil choices. It is an interesting circular point that Eru cannot go against his own will therefore can never be evil. I'd say if Eru ever did something that wasn't consistant, then THAT would be evil. Digression... Another digression....does "good" really have any meaning without its opposite? No. What is light if there is no darkness? Before Eru allowed choices, there was only unity, no good or bad. Evil serves Eru's greater design because it owes its existance to his intention of free will. I think perhaps this thread has moved beyond the original question, still: Quote:
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If orcs do have fea, then they can choose to do things that are evil, and be condemned by their choices. But beings with fea can also choose to do good. Just because we have no example of any orc ever doing that does not mean the possibility did not exist. If they had fea, then the possibility certainly did exist. If orcs do not have fea, then they have no free will and are simply tools, extentions of the one that governs them. A tool cannot be evil. It cannot chose. In my opinion, orcs had fea otherwise how could Tolkien say Quote:
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08-04-2003, 03:31 AM | #84 | ||||||
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If I may offer a comment here on the speculation over what I was actually saying; you can stop nitpicking over it, Nils, I meant exactly what the Lord of Angmar said. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] What I mean is that in this debate over what I meant, the Lord of Angmar is correct.
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It is exactly as I said before. It is probably time to accept the assurance and confirmation of what we (we should after all know) were actually saying; this thread has dragged because of the refusal to do so. I believe a fitting statement here would be something to the effect of 'get over it'. Debate on what it has been confirmed I meant, however, is of course fine. Since the above section of my post is probably sufficient as a response to most of Nils's posts, I may as well proceed onto what Keneldil had to say (which does tie in with one or two points of Nils also). Good to see someone other than Nils, Angmar or me in here by the way; I had assumed that people were staying away. Anyway down to a bit more talk. Quote:
Finally to get back to the original subject of debate, raised again by Keneldil: Quote:
The 'choice' to be evil was, as I implied, Melkor's; it is therefore to him that the blame goes for the evilness of the Orcs. Nonetheless, Orcs I believe to be evil, as whether or not they made the choice to be so (in a sense they can be said to, as while they are naturally bent towards an evil way of thinking, they probably do think independantly and thus the thoughts of evil are theirs), that is what they are if we take the definition of evil to be 'against the purposes of Eru'. If Morgoth was, then they are against these purposes -- i.e. they are against the purposes of Illuvatar in the same way that Morgoth was. The analogy of 'tools' was raised by someone. If they are tools, then they are still inherently evil. They were created by Morgoth as tools for evil, and are thus against Illuvatar. So in Arda at least, clearly, they are evil. Evil beings. Created that way by Morgoth, evil under him. However, it is because of the fea argument and sources such as Quote:
That last quote you raised, Keneldil (one of Nils's actually), which I give again: Quote:
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My thoughts (it was from one of my posts that Nils said this) on the 'plan' of Illuvatar are that he does have a plan, and that it is not evil, but that it considers evil and takes it into account. It is through this that the Melkor-reflecting property of Eru is implemented. Evil's impact on the world, on Eru's creation, has been huge; the 'plan' seems to be worked around it. The 'beauty', as Ulmo says, that is brought into Ea through evil can only be a product of goodness, and an overcoming of evil that is the essence of Illuvatar's plan -- of course, an overcoming of evil could not be present in Illuvatar's plan if he had no consideration of evil himself. (What we have been saying, though, is that his consideration of evil is the greatest possible, and goes beyond Melkor's to see the light -- the beauty -- beyond it.) Lastly, I retract the comment made that Nils was 'parallelling' God to Eru over-much. In fact I no longer think he is, so I apologise. Right, that's about it from me I think. This thread is a good one, you're right (despite the already-mentioned lagging components of it :rolleyes [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]; should be plenty of material here for your essay at any rate, Angmar. |
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08-04-2003, 08:20 AM | #85 | ||
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I have supported my case with quotes from you, which you have not retracted. Yes, I believe this is well past the point of agreeing to disagree. Keneldil the Polka-dot, Quote:
I don't believe so.
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08-04-2003, 10:24 AM | #86 | ||
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What Kelendil and Gwaihir said, and what Tolkien himself reinforces through conversation between Ulmo and Mandos, is that Melkor's evil, while still rebellious, depraved and profane, adds depth to the world that Iluvatar created, and makes the beauty of his creation shine through all the more when compared with that evil. It is still evil, but that does not mean that it is entirely negative in the 'long haul'. Nobody is implying that Iluvatar's initial creation is better for having been marred by Melkor, simply that his world is still beautiful and not by any stretch of imagination fully corrupted because of Melkor. The implication you seem to disagree with, Nils, is the thought that evil makes good seem even better, but this is a fundamental philosophy in Tolkien's works. Would anyone feel or care about the immense happiness of King Elessar when he finally claimed the Throne of Gondor if we did not know aught of the struggle that he had been through to attain it? I leave you, Nils, with the repeat of a Silmarillion quote that Gwaihir used. It is a far better summary of Tolkien's thought than I could sum up: Quote:
[ August 04, 2003: Message edited by: Lord of Angmar ]
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08-04-2003, 10:26 AM | #87 | |||
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OK then, we are in agreement about Eru. Looks like we are not with regard to Orcs.
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08-04-2003, 10:47 AM | #88 | ||
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The Orc's hroa (assuming Orcs are incarnate) was heavily corrupted by Melkor and therefore the Orcs were heavily affected by Melkor's malice. Quote:
[ August 04, 2003: Message edited by: Nils ]
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08-04-2003, 11:15 AM | #89 |
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I would like to remind all participants in this discussion to stay on topic! I can understand the need for clarity in arguments and wanting to be certain of being understood correctly; however, the repetitive "But I said and you misinterpreted me" posts (interspersed with "But you said, so obviously you mean...") are taking up more space than the actual Tolkien discussions at times. Quite frankly, that is boring your readers and not adding to the depth of the discussion. Do try to discuss Tolkien's works, not just your own words!
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08-05-2003, 02:52 AM | #90 | |
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Thanks, Estelyn, but I think we're ok.
Now as Keneldil says, it seems as if we've finished on the whole Illuvatar thing (thanks for the excellent discussion, by the way); back to Orcs specifically, then. Quite good really, as I don't think I've got time today for yet another long-winded post on the issue. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] From Keneldil, we heard: Quote:
You can debate, as you are, on whether (provided they were without fëar) their being created out of evil makes them evil themselves or not. In a way you would be right; in a way, they would be mere 'tools' if they did not have thoughts of their own. However, for the reasons stated above (first paragraph), I still think Orcs would be evil inherently as they are, in essence, sources of evil. Wells (i.e. water-wells), if you like, of evilness upon earth. Simply put, as they can never be anything other than evil things (contrary to Illuvatar's will) in Arda, they are evil in their very fibres. All this said, I do not think that they were mere tools. A tool, as you say, is evil because of the use it is put to. Orcs are evil even when they are not being 'wielded' in this way -- remember the brigand-orcs, and the Orcs of the Misty Mountains that managed their own evil affairs for a while; furthermore, while certainly Morgoth and Sauron used their Orcs as tools to their design, it does not mean that Orcs were fëa-less. Humans can be used as tools. Anyone can be manipulated. In any case, Orcs were bound to their masters (Sauron, Morgoth) because of the ties of evil out of which they were born. Orcs, I believe (good to see I agree with Nils on something [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]), are beings in their own right (regardless of their precise origins, which we will never know -- apart from, crucially, that they were effectively made by Morgoth). |
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08-05-2003, 05:19 AM | #91 |
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Interesting thread... I hope nobody minds if I jump in. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]
I can see two possible dimensions of orcs' inherent evil: 1- Evil in essence / being. If that is the case, then they have no choice but to do what is nasty, depraved and downright wrong because their very being is corrupted. 2 - Evil in action / intention. If it is simply by their deeds that they are considered "bad", but not necessarily their being or essence (i.e., if they are not "irredeemable"), then it must just mean they have the capacity to resist doing evil. Earlier in this thread, somebody remarked that "good" is that which coincides with the will of Eru (I think it was Keneldil... I hope I spelled it right. I'm not so good at spelign). If that is so, a perversion of his will would be evil. A corruption of what he had originally designed would be evil - such as the "creation" of orcs. Then it would also probably mean that orcs are evil themselves because they were not part of Erus' original intention (?) But anyway, who knows the definite, specific will of Eru, down to the nitty-gritty details? Just a thought: If Eru intended all to be good, and a perversion of his intention is evil... then "evil" as we know it is actually just a corruption of good. Meaning that evil cannot exist apart from good because it is just "spoiled goodness"; but good CAN exist without evil, because that was the original intention. (Whew! I don't have enough synonyms for "evil" and "good"; sorry for the redundundundundundance [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] )
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08-05-2003, 10:38 AM | #92 | |||
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Gwaihir, I think we are in agreement: orcs are not tools. They do have fea. I am saying that having fea means the orcs CHOOSE to do bad things, and that alone is what makes them evil. Not some birthright passed on from events entirely outside their ability to affect. Quote:
If evil were not a choice for orcs, and was simply in the fibers of their being, then how can they ever be redeemed? If they cannot ever choose to do good, then it would seem redemption is not for them. I admit, it seems ridiculous to imagine an orc choosing to do good, but I see no other way they could be redeemed. Quote:
Interesting point at the end of your post Kaiserin. Only the original intention can stand on its own. I better think about that one too.
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08-05-2003, 11:25 AM | #93 | |
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Just because they are inherently inclined towards evil deeds, this does not mean they cannot be redeemed. In Catholic belief (and thusly in Tolkien's belief), all sinners can be purged and absolved of their sins. This redemption would probably take place in the afterlife, since there would be a more powerful medium for absolution. I believe that it is within the nature of the orkish fëa to do bad deeds, since their very existence is evil in the eyes of Iluvatar, and since they have so often been enslaved to the wills of other 'fallen' beings. Just because something is in someone's nature, however, does not mean their actions and thoughts cannot be altered or changed and their lives and fëar redeemed.
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08-05-2003, 11:43 AM | #94 | |||
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I wonder if we are having a semantics thing here.
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08-05-2003, 01:17 PM | #95 | |||
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I think the semantics problem we were having is a hard one to sum up. When I state that they are inherently evil, I mean that orcs will not think twice about doing an evil deed and will not repent of it without outside intervention (and I doubt even that much intervention could be found for them while they were still alive). I am simply saying that evil is in their nature, that no matter what they will be inclined towards and unrepentant of evil deeds. While there is a possibility of redemption and absolution, I do not think that orcs can redeem themselves or repent of their deeds solely of their own will.
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08-05-2003, 04:48 PM | #96 | |
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It seems to me that you believe there is some sort of punishment involved here. As far as I know, there is no punishment that Eru passes upon those who follow the evil path. Evil leads to destruction inherently. That is just how Middle-earth works. Here is a quote from Morgoth's Ring: The Elves certainly held and taught that fear or ‘spirits’ may grow of their own life (independently of the body), even as they may be hurt and healed, be diminished and renewed.* *The following was added marginally after the page was written: If they do not sink below a cerain level. Since no fea can be annihilated, reduced to zero or not-existing, it is no[t] clear what is meant. Thus Sauron was said to have fallen below the point of ever recovering, though he had previously recovered. What is probably meant is that a ‘wicked’ spirit becomes fixed in a certain desire or ambition, and if it connot repent then this desire becomes virtually its whole being. But the desire may be wholly beyond the weakness it has fallen to, and it will then be unable to withdraw its attention from the unobtainable desire, even to attend to itself. It will then remain for ever in impotent desire or memory of desire. If someone can can give up evil desires, then one can regain one is healed. It has nothing to do with judgement, it is just how it works.
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08-06-2003, 12:00 AM | #97 | ||
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On the issue of redemption. It's good to see that we're all agreed that Orcs have fëar, so were they redeemable? JRRT seems to have said so, I believe. Nils is right by the way; Quote:
Either way, if there was no redemption for them they would stay evil forever. Could this be permitted? After the end of the world, would Orcs have changed or would they remain exactly as they were? One does have to feel sorry for them, as it really is not their fault that they are like that. They have been utterly corrupted; I think they are still evil, as the evil thoughts originiate in their minds, but the way their mind works is not their fault (in their case). Another take on it could be Nils's. If what he has said is correct, and the body is evil on Arda rather than the spirit, then Orcs could possibly, after death, lose their evilness and return to a normal state. It seems unlikely that they should change in this way, but perhaps it is true that they are only bound to evilness while they inhabit their corrupt bodies after all. |
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08-06-2003, 12:52 AM | #98 | ||
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Nils, I am confused about where you got an idea about punishment from what I have written. Perhaps I mispoke somewhere, but punishment wasn't on my mind. I do not recall any kind of specific punishment being described for doing evil either, other than Melkor's banishment. I looked at that as permanent separation from all things, including Eru. Kind of mirrors how the Bible describes hell: permanent and complete separation from God. Or, since Eru has the power to make fea, perhaps in the end judgement he might choose to unmake the fea of orcs.
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08-06-2003, 01:21 AM | #99 | |
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Mmmm, seems rather harsh though. Of course all this can never be more than speculation, and every suggestion (well, except for stupid ones) is a distinct possibility.
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Concerning fëar, though. It is true that a fëa comes only from Eru himself, and thus, in its original form, was not in fact made evil. We can take Melkor as an example of this. His mind, as the concept for it existed very much with Illuvatar and had to emerge as an Ainur (don’t take me up on this, please, Nils – we’re supposed to have finished with that argument [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]), was built with the capability to tend towards darkness, but did not necessarily do so. (I think it probable that it was inevitable that he did, in the end, fall to evil in his innately-set quest for highness/terribleness (… [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] and power, but nonetheless. I'll touch on this issue again in a moment.) However, under Morgoth’s influences, the fëa of Orcs were apparently corrupted to evil inherently as they were as a race. What methods he used for this is unclear, but it is clear that he managed it somehow. Perhaps, with Illuvatar, these fëar are freed and again able to decide for themselves without the presence of Morgoth’s stain, but in Arda, their fëar are from the moment of an Orc’s birth evil. They were not designed that way by Illuvatar, but they have been corrupted to be that way. Tying in to what I said about the seeming inevitability of Melkor’s Fall, there is another explanation for the nature of Orcish fëar. Were Orcs also this way? Orcs were not like Melkor, clearly, but in the same way that his turning to evil might have been, as I say, inevitable, so might the Orc’s have been in the nature of their spirit. It is a possibility. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] In this case, redemption may not have been for them; as they would be evil unchangeably. I recognise this does not apparently fit in with the ‘almost irredeemable’ line, but it may do if you consider that Orcs did not originally have to be that way – until the evil in their fëar was introduced to them by Morgoth. To introduce another point that is slightly off topic, which may explain why Orcs existed in the world. The stain of Melkor was innately put upon everything in Arda's beginning; Orcs may have been unremovably there because of this. |
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08-06-2003, 09:17 AM | #100 | |
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Now to punishment, which I think everyone here has touched upon except me. I believe that for orcs, the punishment (if any) put forth by Iluvatar or the Valar before absolution would more closely resemble purgatory than hell. In fact, I do not think that there is an equivalent of hell in Tolkien's world, unless it be the dungeons and fortresses of the Dark Lord (Angband, Utumno, Mordor, etc.) I think once they were absolved of their sins (whether this would involve a long wait and/or punishment respective to their crimes I do not know), I believe, as I said earlier, that they would follow the fates of their original ancestors.
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08-06-2003, 12:04 PM | #101 | |||
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Now on to the next point: Quote:
From Morgoth's Ring: Melkor ‘incarnated’ himself (as Morgoth) permanently. He did this so as the control the hroa, and ‘flesh’ or physical matter, of Arda. He attempted to identify himself with it. A vaster, and more perilous, procedure, though of similar sort to the operations of Sauron with the Rings. Thus, outside the Blessed Realm, all ’matter’ was likely to have a ’Melkor ingredient’, and those who had bodies, nourish by the hroa of Arda, had as it were a tendency, small or great, toward Melkor: they were none of them wholly free of him in their incarnate from, and their bodies had an effect upon their spirits. [ August 06, 2003: Message edited by: Nils ]
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08-06-2003, 12:15 PM | #102 |
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Ah. Well, Nils, you missed the point of what I was trying to say there. The main idea there is the corrupted hroa and it's influence on the fea, or on a being's decisions. I was addressing your earlier
point. As for defense against acting against Eru....there is no NEED to claim justification, but I'd say there is judgement that gets passed. You raise a good point about Melkor's influence actually being in the physical matter that make up hroa. I agree with his influence being in all things. I do not agree that this makes anything inherently evil. [ August 06, 2003: Message edited by: Keneldil the Polka-dot ]
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08-06-2003, 03:01 PM | #103 |
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In the case of the Orcs, Melkor's influence was very great. It was so great that if Orcs did have fear, that a 'good' orc has never been recorded.
[ August 06, 2003: Message edited by: Nils ]
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08-06-2003, 10:42 PM | #104 | |
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Personally I would not take that to be the quote's meaning. Influence, rather than innate corruption, is what Melkor's involvement in the making of hroar would have had on the thoughts of the people of Arda (except in the case of the Orcs, who he had personally corrupted). In that case, the quote is not in fact such a major revelation. We already know that this 'influence' and power of evil -- the power of Melkor -- lies on all matter in the world, and also that it too 'had an effect' on the movements of even the Children of Illuvatar. That this 'evil energy' lay in the fibres of hroar would, I think -- that is, what I think coheres and seems right -- have continued this effect rather than innately corrupting them (if only in part). So it does in fact fit in. In the case of the Orcs, perhaps this leaving behind of an 'imprint' or remnant of power upon them -- it is said that Melkor continues to adminsiter his material force for evilness, even from the remoteness of his prison -- is how Melkor corrupted the Orcs. This is a viable theory, then, as to the actual method through which Melkor's own evilness was administered to the Orcs, and the channel through which they were damned in the beginning. (Forgive me if this post is slightly hurried-seeming btw, I wouldn't know as I can't read over it; I am myself in a hurry (public computer, too =/). |
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08-07-2003, 08:41 PM | #105 | |
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Ha ha! I have you now! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] I am bowing out of this overly intelligent debate, as I am a fourteen year old with enough things to think about! Thank you for being such good sports, but you're all too smart! I still say orcs are evil, and chose to be. *sticks tongue out* |
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08-08-2003, 02:09 AM | #106 |
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It seems that this thread has reached the end of its life. Well, nothing to add then. Thanks for the discussion, everyone, it was quite a valuable one after we all finally came to understand each other...
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