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07-14-2003, 05:49 PM | #1 |
Haunting Spirit
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Stockholm
Posts: 63
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The qualitative aspects of Room in ME
This is about how people in Middle earth percieved room in different qualitative aspects. I will start by clarifying what I mean practicly with this rather pompous and dry phrase. It really is something obvious that you don't really think of, it just is, as so many other things in life that are passed by swiftly. When you are in for example a graveyard, you often get the feeling of respect and solemnity compared to when at home? You may feel that you are safe at home but in a strange environemnt you are worried or anything like that based on your surroundings, taht is when you feel a qualitative difference between different spaces.
One example for this can be sensed when the Hobbits come to Gondor, also Aragorn's reaction, he is not sued to large houses of stoen and feels uncomfortable. No fighting is allowed in Rath dinen, the house of the dead, and Mordor seems to be contaminated in such a way that you cannot enter without feeling dreary. My thought is that Tolkien has used this in a very effectful way. Look at the way the narrative is going, always at the hobbit's point of view which is not very surprising since it is supposed to be related with the Red book. Anyway, when Tolkien chose to make his narrative like this, he had the intention fo picturing the war of the Rign from a few seemingly unimportant persons point of view and I think this has been discussed a lot. What makes it interesting is the way it creates vivid and lively descriptions of rooms and halls that communicates a little of the astonishment that is felt when you suddenly enter something that si above your imagination. This is a bad post and a bad topic for discussing, sepecially with this poor presentation but if anyone has any thoughts on it, I'd love to hear them! Måns, longing for Her
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07-14-2003, 09:07 PM | #2 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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When you mentioned room, I was literally thinking the concept of space that the elves have which is apparently united with nature. But that was just for starting off with an idea of my own [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]
I remember "entering" the golden hall, and how it was described, and as a reader, I felt awe, but I also sensed the presence of Theoden who was then in a spell. But one thing that is quite obvious (to me at least) is that the Hobbit's feelings about certain places are more vivid, and exact. Of course it's because of their unique sensibility and newness to the things they have encountered. Elaborate more on this, Mans. It's making my mind work, but I can't explore much [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]
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On really romantic nights of self, I go salsa dancing with my confusion. ~Speed Levitch http://crevicesofsilence.blogspot.com/ |
07-15-2003, 02:20 AM | #3 |
Essence of Darkness
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Evermore
Posts: 1,420
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Mmmm, but it isn't just the Hobbits that experience this. Everyone does. The Rath Dinen is a sacred place, if you respect the dead at any rate. Mordor is the land of the Enemy, and without much life in it except a lot of Orcs.
Everyone is heavily affected by surroundings. Your surrounding affect what you are thinking; what you can do, what you have to do, where you have to go, how comfortable you are, how comfortable you are, what surrounding inspirations you have to think about. The reason this is particularly evident in LotR may be that Hobbits, I believe, take notice of this more deeply than for example Aragorn would, as they are less rough, more jovial down-to-earth people. Aragorn, as well as the other more seriously-minded people in the book, is sterner, tougher and notices these things less, mostly for the other reason that he is in most ways a more cerebral sort of character and therefore less affected. He recognises these 'atmospheres' and surroundings, but is more used to them and does not place such emphasis on them as on his own mind. Other characters are, of course, similar. That is not to say that the Hobbits weren't tough -- of course, they were, although less accustomed to being so as a Ranger would be -- but that they were more down-to-earth and more used to a sheltered, comfortable life, and more involved in what was going on around them. |
07-15-2003, 08:44 AM | #4 |
Deathless Sun
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I would also say that the reason Aragorn doesn't "seem" to notice these atmospheres is that he is used to them. It was the Hobbits' first time in all these places, so they felt the atmosphere more keenly than, say, Faramir or Aragorn.
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But Melkor also was there, and he came to the house of Fëanor, and there he slew Finwë King of the Noldor before his doors, and spilled the first blood in the Blessed Realm; for Finwë alone had not fled from the horror of the Dark. |
07-16-2003, 01:35 AM | #5 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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Quote:
Sorry for the moments of uncertainty...
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On really romantic nights of self, I go salsa dancing with my confusion. ~Speed Levitch http://crevicesofsilence.blogspot.com/ |
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07-16-2003, 02:00 AM | #6 |
Essence of Darkness
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Evermore
Posts: 1,420
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Gandalf and Aragorn? Of course they were different -- they were not the same person. They were similar in that they were wise, and that they were well-travelled and used to life in the wilds; however Aragorn was a Dunedain and a Ranger, and the heir of Elendil. His mind and the tasks he performed were not the same as those of Gandalf, who was much older, a Maia and as such immortal, playing a different part in the story and a different character altogether (other than the travelling aspect).
Aragorn is a king, albeit a king in exile who has yet to take the crown he is entitled to, while Gandalf is a sort of old man in appearance with an unexpected fiery spirit and will that shows him truly. |
07-16-2003, 09:38 AM | #7 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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Thanks for pointing that out for me [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]
What I really meant was that Gandalf seemed to be used to all of middle earth, the same way Aragron was. They may be different, but then, the fact is that they both have no indifference when it comes to being in diverse places in ME. [ July 17, 2003: Message edited by: Neferchoirwen ]
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On really romantic nights of self, I go salsa dancing with my confusion. ~Speed Levitch http://crevicesofsilence.blogspot.com/ |
07-17-2003, 02:30 PM | #8 |
Haunting Spirit
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Have you ever been in an unfamiliar place, where maybe your not really supposed to be, and get a strange feeling...I cant really describe it, but thats probably how the little hobbits felt in great places like Minas tirith or terrible ones like Shelob's lair.
Perhaps Frodo experianced a little daja vu in such times, being forsighted and all. Maybe in a dream once upon a time...
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There long the golden leaves have grown, upon the branching years, while here beyond the sundering seas, now fall the Elven-tears... but if of ships I now would sing, what ship would come to me, what ship would bear me ever back, across so wide a sea? |
07-18-2003, 01:00 AM | #9 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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Quote:
...but you never realize that you had a premonition until you actually see what you just saw. At least that was how it was with me. Yeah, I guess familiarity is an important part in adjusting to different spaces, but it all seems larger than life if the familiarity comes from a premonition.
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On really romantic nights of self, I go salsa dancing with my confusion. ~Speed Levitch http://crevicesofsilence.blogspot.com/ |
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07-18-2003, 01:57 AM | #10 |
Essence of Darkness
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Evermore
Posts: 1,420
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Mmmm. I've had a couple of really good deja vu's before... I've got an idea that they're a product of your brain thinking ahead to what is likely to happen next, although that one of yours, Neferchoirwen, is particularly wierd. Unless it was just coincidence, of course. Frodo's sense of premonition existed, in part, because he was thoughtful; he could imagine what might come in the future.
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07-20-2003, 01:44 PM | #11 |
Haunting Spirit
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I've had many-a-wierd deja vu, but one time stands above the rest. I had a dream in which i jumped into a pool. I didnt even notice the bubbles at the time,of course, they were just the a passing moment in a detailed dream.
The next day i went swimming, jumped in the pool, and the bubbles were EXACTLY the same. it was WIERD!
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There long the golden leaves have grown, upon the branching years, while here beyond the sundering seas, now fall the Elven-tears... but if of ships I now would sing, what ship would come to me, what ship would bear me ever back, across so wide a sea? |
07-20-2003, 11:48 PM | #12 |
Haunted Halfling
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: an uncounted length of steps--floating between air molecules
Posts: 841
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When I read the description of the concept of "room" it made me think more of "atmosphere." Almost as if the spirits of the dead kings shushed travellers on the Rath Dinen, or the Huorns(?) in the Old Forest pressed upon the hobbits, so as to cause Pippin to cry out "just let us pass through!" And Legolas had the sensation of heaviness in Fangorn, perhaps because he sensed the Ents there. I myself can empathize with some of these things. Who has not gotten close to a place with an evil feel and hunched over and 'hid' to avoid the evil force noticing you passing through? I really could see and feel it when Frodo did this in and around Mordor. Space, or 'room' disappears for him, and it is just him, the Ring ('the ring of fire before him') and Sauron.
I'm not sure if I'm actually talking about the right thing or not...carry on! Cheers, Lyta
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“…she laid herself to rest upon Cerin Amroth; and there is her green grave, until the world is changed, and all the days of her life are utterly forgotten by men that come after, and elanor and niphredil bloom no more east of the Sea.” |
07-21-2003, 02:02 AM | #13 |
Princess of Skwerlz
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: where the Sea is eastwards (WtR: 6060 miles)
Posts: 7,500
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Please keep your posts on-topic concerning Middle-Earth; personal deja vu reports don't belong here.
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'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...' |
07-21-2003, 10:34 PM | #14 | ||
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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sorry, Estel
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On really romantic nights of self, I go salsa dancing with my confusion. ~Speed Levitch http://crevicesofsilence.blogspot.com/ |
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07-22-2003, 01:38 AM | #15 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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Quote:
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On really romantic nights of self, I go salsa dancing with my confusion. ~Speed Levitch http://crevicesofsilence.blogspot.com/ |
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07-22-2003, 03:04 AM | #16 | |
Essence of Darkness
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Evermore
Posts: 1,420
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Quote:
Note -- It's fine to talk about de ja vous etc a little bit, but do try to make them relate to what we're talking about or at least something in Tolkien won't you? [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] |
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