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07-11-2003, 10:54 AM | #81 |
Deathless Sun
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A lot of people assume that the Valar aren't to blame, or that very little blame is attached to them, but that isn't true. The reason they brought the Elves over to Aman in the first place was that they wanted to protect them from Morgoth. They assumed that the Elves were like their children, and needed protection and care.
During the Rebellion of the Noldor, it could be said that the Elves hit adolescence, or at least the Noldor did. All adolescents try to rebel against their parents/guardians in some way or the other, and that was exactly what the Noldor did.
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But Melkor also was there, and he came to the house of Fëanor, and there he slew Finwë King of the Noldor before his doors, and spilled the first blood in the Blessed Realm; for Finwë alone had not fled from the horror of the Dark. |
07-11-2003, 11:44 AM | #82 | ||
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But it is said that not until that hour had such cold thoughts ruled Finrod; for indeed she whom he had loved was Amarië of the Vanyar, and she went not with him into exile. |
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07-11-2003, 05:50 PM | #83 | ||
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[ July 11, 2003: Message edited by: Angry Hill Troll ] |
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07-12-2003, 04:00 AM | #84 | |
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Angry Troll, I agree with you. Of course I am not saying that the Valar are perfect and never made mistakes. Yet, as you called them, they were 'honest mistakes' [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]
As Christ said, the chidren of this world are wiser than the children of light [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img] About your comparison between Manwë and Gandalf, the answer is in the quote you posted in this thread some days ago [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] : Quote:
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But it is said that not until that hour had such cold thoughts ruled Finrod; for indeed she whom he had loved was Amarië of the Vanyar, and she went not with him into exile. |
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08-29-2004, 08:55 PM | #85 | |
La Belle Dame sans Merci
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As I was flipping through all my old threads (there aren't many, so it went fast), I started to reread this one, and my brother pointed out one of the less obvious possible meanings of the quote I used. Here is my original thread-starting post, to make it easier:
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By "First of all the Eldar in Aman", is it possible that Feanor is not implying self-importance at all, but rather that he was just the first of the immigrating Elves to set foot on Aman? Meaning... he is simply stating the obvious. He's... punctual. Always the first to do anything, whether setting foot on new land or making jewels of unsurpassed beauty. My brother says he's the type of Elf who would shove other Elves out of the way just so he could be the first to set foot in Aman. I say my brother is a fool. Fea
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08-30-2004, 04:53 PM | #86 | |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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Oh, following your brother's logic, maybe he was the first of the Eldar born in Aman? I'm not sure of that.
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08-30-2004, 10:22 PM | #87 |
La Belle Dame sans Merci
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My problem with the Silm is that I read it front to back last summer, and have been reduced to flipping through it occasionally since then. I don't own the book [yet], and usually it takes me a few days after I need it to actually get a hold of it. My question was more along the lines of "Could it be that we were jumping to conclusions about Feanor's arrogance, and that he was simply stating the obvious and we overthought it?"
Fea
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08-31-2004, 11:30 AM | #88 | |
Beloved Shadow
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In one of his drafts Feanor was actually born in ME and his mother died by falling off a cliff while the Elves were passing through the Misty Mountains (on their way to Valinor). But Tolkien didn't keep this of course and had Feanor born after the journey's end. I can't remember if the idea of Feanor being the first born stayed intact through this change in the story.
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09-01-2004, 04:40 PM | #89 |
La Belle Dame sans Merci
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Welcome back to the thread, my phan-tasmic friend. I'd never heard this about Feanor's birth. Which volume of HoME is it in? Although that question is somewhat meaningless, as I [very ashamedly] will admit to not having read any of HoME. But I do plan on ordering them through my local library once I have some free time again...
Fea
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09-03-2004, 01:06 PM | #90 | ||||
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But I'll give you a taste of the book real quick here. Tolkien wrote this at one time but crossed it out- Quote:
And then Chris Tolkien wrote this a bit later- Quote:
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09-03-2004, 01:54 PM | #91 | ||
La Belle Dame sans Merci
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2) The Schedule: You'd be surprised. You've got to keep in mind that this is an over-achieving teenage artist, about to start her senior year, who's dead exhausted and still hasn't managed to get her room cleaned (I've seriously been trying for over a week, but things keep coming up!). Quote:
Fea
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09-03-2004, 02:28 PM | #92 | |||
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And looking back, I've determined that I had more free time my senior year than any other year (well, except when I was four years old). Once you take your ACT/SAT all the work is over (if you scored well, that is). Then you can stop doing homework and let your grades take a plunge cause they don't care as long as you tested high and passed your senior classes. Than again, I was a slacker (definition: figured out how to get a little work to go a long way, now a days corporations call this practice "working smarter, not harder"). I suppose if you're an "over-achieving" sort of person then you're going to be short of Tolkien time your entire life. Poor thing. Quote:
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09-03-2004, 02:47 PM | #93 | |
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In the later versions, he is the first son of Finwë and Míriel and he is born in Valinor.
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09-03-2004, 04:02 PM | #94 | |||
La Belle Dame sans Merci
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Fea
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09-03-2004, 08:07 PM | #95 | |
Beloved Shadow
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09-06-2004, 07:22 PM | #96 | |
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09-06-2004, 07:43 PM | #97 | |
Beloved Shadow
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My primary concern with the timing of Feanor's birth is this- did the idea of him being the first-born Elf make it to any later versions or was it refuted- or neglected perhaps?
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09-06-2004, 07:50 PM | #98 | |
La Belle Dame sans Merci
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Fea
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09-06-2004, 08:09 PM | #99 | |
Beloved Shadow
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You know, SP, even though I don't agree with the interpretation I'll try to answer your question anyway.
When Mandos says "Not the first" it means "I don't know what I am talking about." I mean, if Feanor is the first but Mandos says he isn't, Mandos is in error, right? I guess he has Feanor's birthday marked wrong in his datebook. That's probably why, after Mandos says his line, the book says- Quote:
Yet another illustration of the Valar being wrong. Yes! Maybe I should buy into this interpretation after all.
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09-06-2004, 08:21 PM | #100 |
La Belle Dame sans Merci
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Would it not be incredibly amusing if, by Mandos saying "not the first", it was Tolkien making a subtle reference to the fact that he had changed birth orders around a little, but the characters had yet to be informed (with the exception, of course, of Mandos)?
Fea
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09-06-2004, 08:37 PM | #101 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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With regards to Feanor's quote, he meant that he would be the first of the eldar to be slain in Aman. Mandos' reply then refered to the fact that Finwe had already at that point been slain, but of course that was yet unknown by the others present. An earlier version of that passage had Feanor saying,"Then I will die; first of all the eldar in Aman" but this was changed because it was well known that Miriel had already died.
I believe in HoME X Morgoth's Ring when the earlier version of the story is given, it says the quote refers to being slain not anything else.
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09-06-2004, 08:52 PM | #102 | |
Beloved Shadow
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However, what we're trying to do is toss out the obvious and try something not so obvious- and see if we can somehow justify it. We're just having some fun.
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09-06-2004, 09:34 PM | #103 |
La Belle Dame sans Merci
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Exactly phantom. I am generally certain that Feanor and Mandos spoke of being slain, but this is more of a "What if we are over-thinking this entirely?" sort of a question being posed. In the RW, "What if?" is the most dangerous question there is, however it is safe in reference to literature. So... what if we were wrong? What if it meant something different. What if people are misjudging Feanor, simply because they misunderstood what he was saying? What if he wasn't an arrogant berk, but was simply Captain Obvious? You see my point?
Fea
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09-18-2005, 09:12 AM | #104 |
La Belle Dame sans Merci
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*nudge*
I'd like to see if anybody has new ideas there are new faces about these days.
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10-14-2005, 11:09 PM | #105 |
Maundering Mage
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Feanor,
I don’t' know exactly what you are looking for but I will give you my opinion of Feanor though it is probably fairly well known. I find him extremely haughty and arrogant. It is rather well known that Feanor was probably the greatest of all elves. Now this to me has always meant that he had great power, knowledge, skill and influence. He has a major underlying character flaw that proves to be his undoing. The greatest problem with Feanor is that due to his stature he brought down many associated with him. His statement that you initially questioned simply illustrates his extreme self-absorption. There has been much talk about the kin slaying and I'm not sure I want to reopen that can of worms but I feel that blame belongs to those who initiated it, and in my eyes that is Feanor. How can we blame Manwe for that? He thought he did what would be best for the elves and invited them to live in Valinor. There was no obligation for them to accept and many did not. Therefore they did not hinder their departure but thinking that the departure was in folly they did not aid it. Now again Feanor had great influence and knowledge, but he was too egotistical to allow that to help other people and to better society. Everything he did was for self-promotion and didn't really care much about anybody else. I have other things to speak about but I feel that this will spark some conversation in this thread. I do not wish, however, for what I am saying to be viewed as Feanor-bashing but I truly believe him an integral character but reprehensible.
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10-14-2005, 11:18 PM | #106 | |
Late Istar
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10-14-2005, 11:40 PM | #107 | |||||
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10-15-2005, 12:11 AM | #108 | ||
Beloved Shadow
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Most of the Feanor debate is open for opinions and everyone can support their side somewhat, but there is one point you made that is not supportable at all.
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Don't do that.
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10-15-2005, 08:55 AM | #109 | |
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“I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo. "So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us.” |
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10-15-2005, 10:36 AM | #110 | |
Dead Serious
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A very minor point, mainly pointed out for its amusement factor.
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10-15-2005, 01:41 PM | #111 |
Late Istar
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Well, you can play semantic games with "forgive", "excuse", "blame", and so on. It all depends on how you want to formally define the terms, which is arbitrary. But in ordinary discourse, they are vague and can take on a number of subtly different meanings.
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10-16-2005, 02:03 PM | #112 |
Pile O'Bones
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Has anyone ever...?
So, this comes to mind... were the Noldor not the slavation of Men? Imagine had they never sailed out of Aman, that Fëanor had been placated, everyone went back to their peaceful little existence in Tirion upon Tuna, or the slopes of Taniquetil, or on the shores of the Bay of Eldamar... then what of Men?
They would not have been exposed to the Eldar in Middle-Earth, merely the Sindar and the Nandor, and would not have probably become as noble as they did. And that's the least of it... They obviously would have been subjugated by Morgoth. Unquestionably. You think the Valar would have come to their aid? You bet your cute little elfy behinds they wouldn't have. Even the Sindar, who were next in line in power and wisdom to the Eldar were left to what would have been their eventual doom. And now... imagine complete domination of Middle-Earth by Morgoth. Valinor, by default, becomes an outpost in an altogether hostile world. Eventually, Morgoth builds up a huge host of Orcs and evil Men( he has all of the world's life-span in which to do it, mind you. And both orcs and men breed much faster than elves. It's a game of numbers, in which the Eldar and Valar quickly become outstripped) and finds some way to cross the Great Sea... and assaults Valinor. Inevitably, Valinor is overrun, the Valar are dragged to Angband in chains and locked in the deepest pits under the Iron Mountains. The Eldar are enslaved or slain, and the world is Morgoth's until the great ending. Pretty picture huh? So, now let us look at the results of Fëanor's "rebellion" (which was obviously divinely inspired). The Noldor arrive in Middle-Earth, and sap the power of Morgoth (and themselves, but that's not the issue), and occupy his attentions, so that he has not time to utterly corrupt the houses of Men migrating westwards. The three houses of the Edain meet the Noldor in Beleriand, and join the fight against Morgoth. The also receive some of the power and wisdom that the Noldor have to give, and, though almost utterly destroyed in the War of the Jewels, ultimately survive to found Numenor. Then they come to Middle-Earth, and free it from the domination of Sauron. Twice (one time helped by midgets, but whatever). Now, that's looking rather far afield, but without Fëanor's rebellion... a) the story would not be allowed to unfold in the way it did b) Valinor would have been conquered by Morgoth, after he had sufficiently gathered enough strength and sorcery to overcome the combined might of the Valar (which he would have enough time to do, without being occupied with a costly war against semi-divine, pointy-eared beings). Thoughts? I spent alot of time hewing caves in silence thinking about this one. "Their oath shall drive them, and yet betray them, and ever snatch away the very treasures they have sworn to pursue." |
10-17-2005, 11:57 AM | #113 | ||
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But you do make a good point about him 'saving' Men from Morgoth. Without the Noldor to keep Morgoth at bay, he would have overrun Middle-Earth and all Men would have either been under him or destroyed for rebelling. The Dwarves also would likely have been destroyed, too, although it would have taken much more time. They had already been in Middle-Earth for some time, and had significant fortresses and cities. They would have held out much longer than Men.
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10-17-2005, 12:18 PM | #114 | ||
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“I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo. "So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us.” |
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10-17-2005, 12:41 PM | #115 | ||
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10-17-2005, 01:07 PM | #116 |
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The question for me is whether the departure of the Noldor from Valinor necessarily required the crimes which Feanor was undoubtedly guilty of to be committed.
I think not. Admittedly, it was Feanor's strength of will and fiery spirit which sparked the impulse to leave. But is it not possible that the same result (in terms of saving the Edain from the clutches of Morgoth) could have been achieved with less grief and anguish had Feanor tempered his impulsiveness with a touch of humility? Perhaps, had he not spoken in such forthright and angry terms, the Valar would have permitted the Noldor to depart and sanctioned the use of Teleri ships for that purpose. And, even if not, was the burning of the ships (Feanor's greatest crime, in my opinion) really necessary? It was Feanor's arrogance and self-importance which led him to order that this deed be done, thus precipitating great suffering and loss among the following Noldorin host.
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10-17-2005, 01:13 PM | #117 | ||||
Maundering Mage
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The fact that they had belief in Melkor to set him free shows not ignorance but greatness of spirit. Believing that any could be given a second chance and reform. As far as redress to Feanor, it was not they who committed the act so what redress do you mean. Also if you remember Feanor didn't give them much time to even think about that before he went and swore his little oath. Quote:
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All of this talk of Manwe being inept is rather ludicrious as this quote shows. Manwe was, by appointment from Eru, governor of all the land. So it comes to my mind that while not perfect, Eru trusted him to lead and maybe Feanor should have as well. If anybody had the right or position to know Eru's will is was Manwe and not Feanor. Edit: Cross posted with SpM and I agree with what you said completely.
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10-17-2005, 02:56 PM | #118 |
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As regards the Valar coming to the aid of the Edain...
I wouldn't be so certain that they wouldn't have gone to war. They went to war against Melkor when the coming of the Elves was imminent, for their sake, despite being rather slothful and inward-looking in Valinor before that. Personally, I think that had the Noldor not marched off to Middle-Earth, the Valar would eventually have shaken off the cobwebs of feat (no doubt prompted by Ulmo and Tulkas), and made war for the benefit of Men, who would now have awakened, so that there would no longer be a fear of hurting the unborn Men in their resting place. Furthermore, the situation as it would have been in Middle-Earth at the time of Man's awakening had the Noldor not come to Middle-Earth would have been extremely similar to the situation there after the fall of the Elf-Kingdoms in Beleriand, and the extermination of the Elves at the hands of each other in the 3rd Kinslaying. It might not have been Earendil's plea which stirred them, but I think the Valar would have had to come back to war eventually. And with no Ban or Curse on the Noldor, they would not have had their pride to urge them to stay at home, but rather to urge them on.
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10-18-2005, 01:04 AM | #119 | ||||
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But the problem- the way things stood in the world at the time of Feanor's rebellion, "eventually" was not good enough. That's why the rebellion of the Noldor had to happen. I've made this point elsewhere, but I'll make it again. Beleriand was about five seconds from being completely overthrown when Feanor landed on the coast. It was actually the burning of the ships that got the attention of Morgoth's armies and kept them from finishing off their opponents. They rushed to attack Feanor, and he and his followers promptly shredded Morgoth's army. Feanor was barely in time to save Beleriand. If he wouldn't have come when he did and burn the ships then what happens? Here's what- Morgoth overthrows Beleriand, and then he goes east with his armies and wipes out the extremely defenseless dark elves as well as the race of men. I agree that the Valar would have "eventually" attacked Morgoth, but "eventually" would've been too late. Eru was not happy with them for waiting so long to attack Morgoth the first time. This HoME quote was used earlier in the thread, but here it is again- Quote:
The solution- the Noldor! Tolkien even said this- Quote:
Not only that, but they had to get to Middle-Earth to fight him as soon as they possibly could, because Morgoth was a short inch from overrunning it. How do you get there quickly without the Teleri's boats? Answer- you don't. And so, we have three possible paths. 1) The Teleri lend the Noldor their boats, or ferry them to Middle-Earth. Result- The world is saved. 2) The Teleri don't allow the Noldor to use their boats. Feanor tries to take them and fighting ensues. The Noldor get the boats. Result- The world is saved, but the Noldor and Feanor are forever vilified in the minds of readers everywhere. 3) The Teleri don't allow the Noldor to use their boats. Feanor is too nice to take them by force. Result- Morgoth takes over Middle-Earth and wipes out the race of Man. Option three results in the good guys losing, so we can toss that one out as a possibility. The only remaining options are 2, the way it happened, and 1, the way it should've happened. So, as you can see, the choice for how events were going to unfold was completely tied to whether or not Olwe said "yes" to Feanor. He said "no". And why did he say no? The Silmarillion says Olwe refused because it was "against the will of the Valar". And so, it is now plain to see that the kinslaying was set in motion the moment the Valar made known that they didn't want the Noldor to leave, and was inevitable once Olwe decided to adhere strictly to the wishes of the Valar. There are plenty of other points that could be made, but I think this one is a very interesting one. What does it mean? Could the Valar have been expected to do something different? What about Olwe? Or was the bloody exodus of the Noldor unavoidable the moment the Valar released Melkor amongst the elves?
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10-18-2005, 02:40 AM | #120 | |
Illustrious Ulair
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Hence, the events foredoomed by the Music happen, but in a diferent way, because, while the Music is as fate to all but Men in terms of what happens, it doesn't determine the individual moral choices made by Elves & Valar. Its entirely possible that Feanor, & the Elves generally felt a kind of unconscious drive to act out the Music (or their part in it) but were havig to 'make' themselves do it, come up with reasons - I wake up with this urge to go to London, but don't know why. I can't shake the urge. I must go. I do, however, have the freedom to choose whether I draw the money for the ticket from my bank account, mug some little old lady to get it, hitchhike there, steal a car, etc. Lots of choices, & my freewill plays a major part inhow I get there. The only thing is I don't have a choice in whether or not I go to London. There will be all kinds of consequences for me personally dependent on how I choose to get to my destination, & I will be judged on how I did it & held accountable for my actions. |
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