Time of the Valar - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Keneldil the Polka-dot · 11-21-2002, 06:03 PM

Quote:

Then Manwë upon the Mountain called upon Ilúvatar, and for that time the Valar laid down their government of Arda.

That quote is from the story of the Downfall of Numenor. Ar-Pharazon attacked Aman, and Illuvatar caused the sea to swallow his fleet and the island of Numenor.

A few questions:

Did the Valar need Illuvatar to deal with Ar-Pharazon? They had mastery over the materials of the earth, they could have caused the chasm that drowned the fleet and the isle of Numenor. I have seen it somewhere here in the Downs that the Letters say if the Valar had fought directly with Ar-Pharazon they would have won but at great cost. I would have thought they could have done the same thing Illuvatar did and avoided a direct fight.

What does "and for that time the Valar laid down their government of Arda" mean? Were the Valar fed up? When did the "time" end and the Valar resume government of Arda, or did they ever? Those governed by the preordination of the Music were, for the most part, withdrawn from Middle Earth. Men were dominant and their lives were not preordained (I think that's right anyway). Does that passage mean the Valar "still" no longer rule Middle Earth? Maybe the time will end and the Valar will resume their rule after the Dagor Dagorath. I am not well read in some of the HoME or the Letters, so maybe JRRT dealt with this somewhere. If someone could point me in the right direction I'd appreciate it. Thanks [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[ November 21, 2002: Message edited by: Keneldil the Polka-dot ]

Orald · 11-21-2002, 07:07 PM

The Valar had a Laissez-Faire style of system going on. Unless the People of Middle-Earth became so unruly that they needed to intervene. With that being said, here I go.

The Valar were not able to deal with the Numenoreans under the lead of Ar-Pharazon, who was being controlled by Sauron.

Quote from Letters:

Quote:

Faced by this rebellion, of appalling folly and blasphemy, and also real peril (since the Númenóreans directed by Sauron could have wrought ruin in Valinor itself) the Valar lay down their delegated power and appeal to God, and receive the power and permission to deal with the situation; the old world is broken and changed. A chasm is opened in the sea and Tar-Calion and his armada is engulfed. Númenor itself on the edge of the rift topples and vanishes for ever with all its glory in the abyss.

Tar-Calion and Ar-Pharazon being one in the same.

[ November 21, 2002: Message edited by: Durelen ]

Mhoram · 11-21-2002, 07:17 PM

Did Tolkien elaborate on how he believed the Numenoreans could have "wrought ruin in Valinor itself" ? It's hard to believe the Numenoreans would have been any more than an annoying fly to the Valar if they came to Valinor.

WarBringer · 11-21-2002, 07:22 PM

True Mhoram, just thinking the same thing-Think about this, if the numenoreans were no threat to the valar, would any race of middle earth be able to?

Orald · 11-21-2002, 07:45 PM

Not in that letter or anywhere else I have ever read how, Mho.

I think it would have to deal with the technology the Numenoreans would have had in the war department(much thanks to Sauron) and possibly in transportation, i.e. flying machines, metal boats(also Sauron). They may have been beaten by the Valar eventually, but not without severe losses.

Legolas · 11-21-2002, 10:05 PM

Indeed, I believe most of the peril would've come as a result of Sauron and the Numenoreans as his tool as opposed to the Numenoreans alone. The Valar's decision to appeal to Eru was prompted by their plans for attack, but probably not the only reason. Why not go ahead and make changes to prevent the possibility of such attacks from anyone? It would be interesting to know how they would've gone about causing so much damage to Valinor.

Mhoram · 11-21-2002, 10:21 PM

The one thing that comes to mind is simply destroying the land, trees, grasses, gardens, etc. Oh! and there were the elves still that the Numenoreans could have killed. I think we can count out that any of the Valar would be harmed, and probally the Maiar, and then only by Sauron I guess. Perhaps the Valar were unable to bring themselves to harm the Numenoreans, for love? Or perhaps because they are Eru's children, so they would be out of line. Those are some ideas.

***Mithadan*** · 11-22-2002, 12:35 AM

In another thread dealing with this subject, I suggested that one reason the Valar called upon Eru is that their role in Arda, in part, included acting as the guardians and protectors of the Children of Iluvatar (Elves and Men). The Valar were not "allowed" to kill the Children, thus the Numenoreans could have done significant damage in Valinor both to the land and its inhabitants. The Valar had no choice but to call upon Eru under the circumstances.

Anarion · 11-25-2002, 12:55 AM

When one does not know the WORDS, one cannot sing the tune.
ARDA: 'The Realm'.(Silmarillion, p.19)

Legolas · 11-25-2002, 02:42 PM

The wise Mithadan.

Letter No. 156:

Quote:

The Valar had no real answer to this monstrous rebellion — for the Children of God were not under their ultimate jurisdiction: they were not allowed to destroy them, or coerce them with any 'divine' display of the powers they held over the physical world. They appealed to God; and a catastrophic 'change of plan' occurred. At the moment that Arpharazôn set foot on the forbidden shore, a rift appeared: Númenor foundered and was utterly overwhelmed; the armada was swallowed up; and the Blessed Realm removed for ever from the circles of the physical world. Thereafter one could sail right round the world and never find it.

[ November 25, 2002: Message edited by: Legalos ]

Keneldil the Polka-dot · 11-25-2002, 02:54 PM

That all pretty much covers the first question. Thanks everyone [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

How about the other ones?

Quote:

When did the "time" end and the Valar resume government of Arda, or did they ever? Those governed by the preordination of the Music were, for the most part, withdrawn from Middle Earth. Men were dominant and their lives were not preordained (I think that's right anyway). Does that passage mean the Valar "still" no longer rule Middle Earth? Maybe the time will end and the Valar will resume their rule after the Dagor Dagorath. I am not well read in some of the HoME or the Letters, so maybe JRRT dealt with this somewhere. If someone could point me in the right direction I'd appreciate it. Thanks

Eru · 11-25-2002, 06:13 PM

actually, i believe after Iluvatar took care of his wayward children and removed Valinor from the circles of the world, he gave the governance back to the Valar. how else would gandalf been able to come from the distant west? was he not a maiar (sp?), along with the rest of the wizards who came with him (istari)? the valar, not wishing to interfere directly with the dealings within Endor, sent the istari to help the Men and remaining Elves rally against sauron. and before anyone says, well, if saruman was a maiar, then how come he turned to evil? well, how did the Balrogs turn to evil? Morgoth? power and greed. and if anyone wants me to back it up with text, then i will do so. as soon as i get UT back.

11-21-2002, 07:22 PM	#4
WarBringer Wight Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Wandering The North Posts: 184	True Mhoram, just thinking the same thing-Think about this, if the numenoreans were no threat to the valar, would any race of middle earth be able to? __________________ Fortune Favors the Bold...

11-21-2002, 10:05 PM	#6
Legolas A Northern Soul Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Valinor Posts: 1,847	Indeed, I believe most of the peril would've come as a result of Sauron and the Numenoreans as his tool as opposed to the Numenoreans alone. The Valar's decision to appeal to Eru was prompted by their plans for attack, but probably not the only reason. Why not go ahead and make changes to prevent the possibility of such attacks from anyone? It would be interesting to know how they would've gone about causing so much damage to Valinor. __________________ ...take counsel with thyself, and remember who and what thou art.

11-22-2002, 12:35 AM	#8
*Mithadan* Spirit of Mist Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Tol Eressea Posts: 3,381	In another thread dealing with this subject, I suggested that one reason the Valar called upon Eru is that their role in Arda, in part, included acting as the guardians and protectors of the Children of Iluvatar (Elves and Men). The Valar were not "allowed" to kill the Children, thus the Numenoreans could have done significant damage in Valinor both to the land and its inhabitants. The Valar had no choice but to call upon Eru under the circumstances. __________________ Beleriand, Beleriand, the borders of the Elven-land.

11-25-2002, 06:13 PM	#12
Eru Haunting Spirit Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Middle Earth Posts: 71	actually, i believe after Iluvatar took care of his wayward children and removed Valinor from the circles of the world, he gave the governance back to the Valar. how else would gandalf been able to come from the distant west? was he not a maiar (sp?), along with the rest of the wizards who came with him (istari)? the valar, not wishing to interfere directly with the dealings within Endor, sent the istari to help the Men and remaining Elves rally against sauron. and before anyone says, well, if saruman was a maiar, then how come he turned to evil? well, how did the Balrogs turn to evil? Morgoth? power and greed. and if anyone wants me to back it up with text, then i will do so. as soon as i get UT back. __________________ "Utúlie'n aurë! Aiya Eldalië ar Atanatári, utúlie'n aurë! The day has come! Behold, people of the Eldar and Fathers of Men, the day has come!"

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11-21-2002, 07:17 PM	#3
Mhoram Dead and Loving It Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: The land of fast cars and loud guitars. Posts: 361	Did Tolkien elaborate on how he believed the Numenoreans could have "wrought ruin in Valinor itself" ? It's hard to believe the Numenoreans would have been any more than an annoying fly to the Valar if they came to Valinor.

11-21-2002, 07:45 PM	#5
Orald Shadow of Malice Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: right behind you Posts: 843	Not in that letter or anywhere else I have ever read how, Mho. I think it would have to deal with the technology the Numenoreans would have had in the war department(much thanks to Sauron) and possibly in transportation, i.e. flying machines, metal boats(also Sauron). They may have been beaten by the Valar eventually, but not without severe losses.

11-21-2002, 10:21 PM	#7
Mhoram Dead and Loving It Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: The land of fast cars and loud guitars. Posts: 361	The one thing that comes to mind is simply destroying the land, trees, grasses, gardens, etc. Oh! and there were the elves still that the Numenoreans could have killed. I think we can count out that any of the Valar would be harmed, and probally the Maiar, and then only by Sauron I guess. Perhaps the Valar were unable to bring themselves to harm the Numenoreans, for love? Or perhaps because they are Eru's children, so they would be out of line. Those are some ideas.

11-25-2002, 12:55 AM	#9
Anarion Animated Skeleton Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: at sea Posts: 27	When one does not know the WORDS, one cannot sing the tune. ARDA: 'The Realm'.(Silmarillion, p.19)