smaug

was smaug the last dragon or the last great dragon ?

[Maverick]

I'm pretyy sure he was just the last great dragon.

[Rider of Rohan]

Isn't there some mention of cold drakes in the mountains even after Smaug? I could be wrong but I would like to think that he was the last great dragon. But is guess it depends on your definition of dragon.

[Kransha]

As far as I know, Smaug was the last great dragon. There were probably many bred by Morgoth and I doubt that they were all confined to the northwest of Middle-Earth, like Smaug and Glaurung. There was also Scatha and Ancalagon (sp?) mentioned. I suspect that there were dragons in the east too, and perhaps even in the south. Probably cold-drakes, great worms, and perhaps a couple of the winged sort.

[Oroaranion]

I suppose that he was one of the last great dragons, although he is the only one that you hear of having a renowned hoard, which the Dwarves wanted to reclaim. Smaug must have been pretty powerful to have gathered it from the Dwarves and Men in the first place.

well i checked it in the encyclopedia of arda and it says that smaug was the last of the great fire drakes but wasnt the last fire drake. we no that hes not the last fire drake coz gandalf refers to fire-breathing dragons in the time before the War of the Ring, nearly eighty years after Smaug's death. Tolkien even goes so far as to hint that some of these creatures might have survived to our own times.

[Gashberz]

WOW! I love smaug hes my favorite dragon. He was one of the last Drakes as you have undoubtedly read above my post! and whats this about Boromir the disco king i saw???it sounds very halirious!

[Maltagaerion]

Just how old was Smaug anyway? Was he around in the time of Glaurung?

[Eorl of Rohan]

[img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] Well, there is no Smug anywhere except in hobbit and lotr. Then, we can reasonably assume that he was alive but his fame was just shadowed by great might and fame of Glarung and other stronger draogns when the sun was young

[The Saucepan Man]

Just how old was Smaug anyway? Was he around in the time of Glaurung?

Unlikely. If Morgoth had developed winged Dragons by that stage, I am sure that he would have deployed them. Winged Dragons appeared for the first time during the War of Wrath, when Ancalagon's squadron flew out from Angbad.

It is possible that Smaug was one of those in Ancalagon's squadron who escaped the fall of Angbad. I think it more likely, however, that he is descended from one (or a pairing of) such escapees, since I believe that he is said to have been in his youth when he first attacked Erebor.

Assuming that's right, it is likely that he was the last Dragon of pure descent from the original winged beasts of Ancalagon's horde. I believe that, in one of his Letters, Tolkien indicated that he did not intend that Smaug was the last Dragon, but rather that he was the last of the Great Dragons. Possibly those remaining were the result of inter-breeding between Ancalagon's line and lesser beasts.

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

I laid low the warriors of old and their like is not in the world today. Then I was but young and tender. Now I am old and strong, strong, strong.

The Hobbit

In the quotation above Smaug is referring to his conquest of Erebor in TA 2770 and speaking in TA 2941. If he is 'old and strong' when speaking to Bilbo, but was 'young and tender' 171 years earlier then he is obviously far too young to have been alive in Glaurung's day (c. FA 265- FA 499), nearly 6,300 years before the fall of Erebor.

[Sharkû]

Yet we have the Tale of Years note that only two dragons survived the Fall of Angband (cf. HoME XI,3,V). This was post-LR, so Tolkien arguably had Smaug and Scatha in mind.
For reasons beyond my comprehension, this statement has been disapproved on this forum, but I do not see why Tolkien would have such a definite and small number in mind if he wasn't also think of two very concrete dragons.

[The Barrow-Wight]

I laid low the warriors of old and their like is not in the world today. Then I was but young and tender. Now I am old and strong, strong, strong.

In the quotation above Smaug is referring to his conquest of Erebor in TA 2770...

Are you sure? Conquering Erebor pitted Smaug against Dwarves and the Men of Dale, the like of who were still in the world today, some even at the mountain's foot at Laketown. It seems more likely that the dragon is referring to ancient Elven warriors of Beleriand, who few if any in modern times could compare to. If this supposition is correct, then Smaug would be Ages old and a remnant from the days of Morgoth.

[The Saucepan Man]

It doesn't follow from the fact that only two Dragons escaped the Fall of Angbad that they were Smaug and Scatha. The escapees may have been a mating pair, or they may subsequently have encountered, and mated with, other Dragons who had emerged from Angbad earlier. Either way, it is quite possible that Smaug and Scatha were their descendants.

Indeed, the quote which Squatter gave (which was the one which I had in mind) actively mitigates against Smaug being one of the Angbad escapees.

[Finwe]

How can you specifically say that he was referring to the earlier destruction of Erebor? For all we know, Smaug could have been referring to battles in the First Age, when he definitely would have been "young and tender."

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

Admittedly that quotation does not in itself indicate what Smaug means by 'of old'. In its proper context it follows the dragon's comments about those likely to want revenge on him: "Revenge! The King under the Mountain is dead and where are his kin that dare seek revenge? Girion Lord of Dale is dead, and I have eaten his people like a wolf among sheep, and where are his sons' sons that dare approach me?". Although this seems to me to imply that 'the warriors of old' are those he killed in taking Erebor, the real key to his age comes a little earlier in the chapter:

And Smaug laughed aloud. He had a wicked and a wily heart, and he knew his guesses were not far out, though he suspected that the Lake-men were at the back of the plans, and that most of the plunder was meant to stop there in the town by the shore that in his young days had been called Esgaroth.

Earlier still, Tolkien wrote of the Lake-men:

They still throve on the trade that came up the great river from the South and was carted past the falls to their town; but in the great days of old, when Dale in the North was rich and prosperous, they had been wealthy and powerful

'Days of old' in this context means, then, the time before the coming of Smaug. In any case, I would think it unusual that a dragon so ancient as to have escaped from Angband's destruction had no more in his hoard than what he had been able to steal from Thror and the men of Dale. For me, all of the evidence points to Smaug being somewhere in the region of two-hundred years old, probably slightly older; and only a descendant of the dragons of the First Age as Saucepan suggested.

[Osse]

I cannot find anywhere, though no doubt it has been discussed and decided on the downs in the past. Where is there evidence of female dragons, more importantly is there any evidence of female dragons who escaped the destruction of Angbad? I always imagined it was Morgoth who had developed the race of dragons himself, rather than choosing good breeding males and females after he had developed the species... it just boggles me to imagine dragons actually mating!

Osse

<font size=1 color=339966>[ 11:52 PM January 27, 2004: Message edited by: Osse ]

[The Saucepan Man]

Assuming (as the evidence seems to suggest) that Smaug was not a refugee from Angbad, then Dragons must have some form of propagating themselves without Morgoth's active intervention. So, unless they are hermaphroditic, they must come in both the male and female variety.

The source of Dragons is a thread which touches on this issue. I will stick with what I posted there, although it is (and in all likelihood can only be) speculation:

As to how Morgoth came to create Dragons, this is, as some have already said, a matter of pure speculation. My own theory is that they originated from large reptilian beasts which originally inhabited Arda (similar to dinosuars). Morgoth imbued these beats with disembodied spirits (Elves, or possibly Maia), thus giving them awareness and intelligence, and proceeded to breed them for certain characteristics (resulting, ultimately, in the winged variety).

The fact that Dragons were created by Morgoth does not preclude them breeding amongst themselves, assuming that there were females as well as the males that we hear of. Orcs, I believe bred amongst themselves. Assuming my theory above is correct, there is no reason why female Dragons should not have existed, since the original beasts from which they were created would have been both male and female.

Edit: To fix the link

<font size=1 color=339966>[ 10:17 AM January 28, 2004: Message edited by: The Saucepan Man ]

[davem]

Saucepan man, that link isn't working for me at the moment. I wonder if anyone has considered the possible connection between the Dragons which survived the fall of Thangorodrim & the 'wild Were Worms who live in the Last Desert' who Bilbo mentions in Hobbit.

Ok, that's possibly a Hobbit legend, without any basis in truth, but Hobbits migrated from the East, & maybe its a tradition based on ancient experience, otherwise, where does the idea come from? The pair of Dragons head east, as far from the Ancient West as possible, breed with what? 'Were-worms' suggests creatures who transform from other creatures. Perhaps they bred with giant lizards, creating a new strain, most of which were not 'true' Dragons, but some of which could be be.

[Orophin]

I am pretty sure that there is an instance in the Hobbit where it is stated that there are more dragon in the mountains of the north and that Smaug is simply the biggest of them. I do not think that he was the last one.

[Firefoot]

But there were dragons in the wastes beyond; and after many years they became strong again and multiplied, and they made war on the Dwarves and plundered their works.

So the rumour of the wealth of Erebor spread abroad and reached the ears of the dragons, and at last Smaug the Golden, greatest of the dragons of his day, rose and without warning came against King Thrór and descended on the Mountain in flames.

Both quotes are from Appendix A, Durin's Folk. Therefore, Smaug was not the last Dragon, but the last great dragon and the greatest of the time.

[Gothbogg the Ripper]

I reckon he was the last Dragon, if he (or another dragon) were known to still exist then they might have actually tried to get the Dragon to melt it but I'm not sure.

I seem to remember that Scatha was still around at the time of 'the hobbit', up in the withered heath. Wouldn't she count as a great dragon? Or is it that Smaug was the last winged dragon?