Put those claws away!

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

Reading The Tale of Tinúviel in The Book of Lost Tales II yesterday I realised something quite disturbing: at its earliest extant stage this pivotal tale in the legends of Middle-earth has a clear bias against an already much-maligned minority group.

I refer, of course, to the noble tribe of Cats, celebrated in rhyme by T.S. Eliot; granted immunity from molestation in Lovecraft's city of Ulthar and yet in Tolkien's early writings made servants and allies of Melko under Tevildo, "an evil fay in beastlike shape". Not content with this, Tolkien has Tevildo and his folk fail their dark master, leading to their banishment from his realm.

Consider the following passage:

Indeed afterward Melko heard all and he cursed Tevildo and his folk and banished them, nor have they since that day had lord or master or any friend, and their voices wail and screech for their hearts are very lonely and bitter and full of loss, yet there is only darkness within and no kindliness.

One might consider this a sufficiently dreadful defamation of the feline character, but the Professor's attack doesn't end there. I refer you to the oft-repeated tale of the cat-loving Queen Berúthiel, whose pets all men feared and cursed as they passed. Apparently the cats themselves are not a sufficient target for the Professor's wrath; their owners, it would appear, are also fair targets for his negative stereotyping.

Now I may be stark raving mad, but to me this looks like the lowest form of anti-feline propaganda, which, although dropped from the published work in all but the most fleeting references, appears to betray a vehement dislike of kittens. Can anyone defend Tolkien's apparent disregard for the graceful and inoffensive predators that share the homes, and indeed keyboards of several Downers? In short was Tolkien being catty about cats? Am I justified in using this Forum's bandwidth to shout "Save the moggies"?

[Sharkû]

"219 From a letter to Allen & Unwin 14 October 1959

[A Cambridge cat breeder had asked if she could register a litter of Siamese kittens under names taken from The Lord of the Rings.]

My only comment is that of Puck upon mortals. I fear that to me Siamese cats belong to the fauna of Mordor, but you need not tell the cat breeder that."

[tangerine]

Squatter, some people are just not cat people. These people may find cats moody and discriminating. I find cats to be this way too, though I have a few VERY good reason to, and even then I don't really dislike them. Maybe it wasn't that Tolkien didn't like cats; maybe it was just that cats didn't like him; cats can be quite vicious to people they don't like (unless they are declawed, but even so.)

[Galorme]

I think that the Sly, manipulative nature of cats would match up to Melko (you can actually say that I believe since he was still know as Melko in post LoTRs times as an alternative) in JRRT's view. But I think that cats were chosen for the Tale so that their cowardice and evil would contrast to the loyalty and strength of Huan that Hound. He was definitely a dog person.

[Frodo Baggins]

NO no no! *sniff* My precious baby is not evil at all! She's the sweetest thing on earth! I love her more than anything. JRRT neede to meet Chessie (my cat) then he would change his mind.

Oh and, a book i have had for about seven years I discivered has a poem by JRRT in it.

The book is called "The Poetical Cat" and the the poem goes like this:

CAT ON THE MAT

The fat cat on the mat
may seen to dream
Of nice mice that suffice
for him or cream;
but he is free maybe,
walks in thought
umbowed, proud, where loud
roared ofr fought
his kin, lean and slim,
or deep in den
in the East feasted on beasts
and tender men.

The giant lion with iron
claw in paw,
and huge ruthless tooth
in gory jaw;
the pard dark-starred
fleet upon feet,
that oft from aloft
leaps on his meat
where words loom in gloom-
far now they be
fierece and free
and tamed is he;
but fat cat on the mat
kept as pet
he does not forget.

Sounds like a typical JRRT poem dosen't it?

[Diamond18]

Hisssss! Tolkien's descriptions of cats posted above by Squatter and Sharku are ridiculous and are probably due to an early childhood incident. Irrational fear or loathing of animals usually does. Perhaps little Ronald was tormenting a cat and the cat fought back. Harumph. I have owned 11 cats within the last 6 years, and only one of them displayed an inkling of the grossly exaggerated stero-type of unpleasent cats.

Cats are very much like Hobbits, so there!

You're probably wondering why I've gone through so many cats. Don't ask. I still have nightmares. I'll only say...death to all hawks...speeders...and others....

[HerenIstarion]

little Ronald was tormenting a cat

I don't believe he was ever

319 From a letter to Roger Lancelyn Green

I used (before 1900) to be read to from an 'old collection' — tattered and without cover or title-page – of which all I can now remember was that (I think) it was by Bulwer Lytton, and contained one story I was then very fond of called 'Puss Cat Mew'.

[Frodo Baggins]

Poor Diamond18! I have been through three cats myself, and now have three more. One of wich I saved from the brink of starvation, but that's another story.

As for early childhood incidents, I don't know about any cats, but I do know that he was stung by a tarantula when he was little. Which beame an inspiration for Ungoliantë and Shelob. (not that I blame him, spiders creep me out)

There was an old thread about pets LOTR characters would have. Cats and Hobbits would get along well together I think. They are both slightly on the lazy side, have furry feet, [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] enjoy sleeping, (it's nice to have a bedful of them on a chilly niight) and both cats and Hobbits LOVE to eat!

[ November 06, 2002: Message edited by: Frodo Baggins ]

[Diamond18]

Aw, H-I, don't sound so affronted. When I said "torment" I meant like holding the tail or rubbing the fur the wrong way, which is stuff all little kids do whether they're destined to become geniuses or not. One would think I meant he was setting it on fire or something... [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Interesting excerpt, though. I hadn't got to that one yet. I should probably be reading that book right now instead of posting here (naughty me).

[Birdland]

Well, I suppose we have to accept that Tolkien was definitely not a "cat lover". But if we look at popular culture, cats usually are portrayed more as villains than heroes. Disney is particularly guilty of this, IMHO.

I credit this to the "worse case" use of anthropomorphisizing, (crediting human reactions and emotions to non-human things). Science throughout the ages cautioned against this, but it seems when it come to the baser instincts, people are more than willing to attribute these to the "lower species". And since (I'm sorry), it was usually men who would make these scientific and cultural distinctions - and since it is men that generally do not like cats - well...there you have it. Cats are sneaky, underhanded, conniving, evil creatures. (And, of course, it is mere coincidence that these "cat-like" qualities are often attributed to women, as well).

Thank goodness, times have changed. Cats no longer have to live up to our expectations, but can be appreciated for what they are; cats.

(Birdie steps down off of her soapbox, as her two bob-tail cats applaud enthusiastically.)

[ November 07, 2002: Message edited by: Birdland ]

[Dimaldaeon]

Perhaps Tolkien was just one of those people (Myself included) who just prefer dogs to cats.
A lot of people just think that there is a reason why dogs and not cats have been given the title "Mans best friend". Take the Scottish comedian Billy Connelly for example

Any animal that stays when you move house is a bastard and dosen't deserve feeding

Now I wopn't begin to slag cats ut I just dont see how ye can't realise the apart freom look cute and torment mice (Dogs are infact better at catching vermin, perhaps because they kill one when they find it rather than play with it for an hour and a half) cats do absolutely nothing

[Diamond18]

Well, that is somewhat true. But why do pets have to do a chore to be worthwhile? I think being cute, and nice to pet (and affectionate, I don't care what anyone else says, most of my cats were affectionate) is plenty.

Right now I have no cats, but one dog. She is the most annoying, neurotic, stupid creature to walk the planet. So I'm not really big on dogs at the moment. She does nothing but bark, bark, bark, and whenever guns go off outside or thunderstorms happen, or we touch the flyswatter (or my dad uses the grill, that's her new "thing") she shivers, pants, shakes: basically has a breakdown.

Erm, so anyway, you can't generalize dogs and cats that way. When you come right down to it pets are useless if you want work done. If I want to kill a mouse, I have to do it myself. (i.e. Set a trap).

For me, cats are just smarter than dogs. I don't like a creature that fawns over me whether I deserve it or not, so the thing about dogs being "more loyal" has something to do with why I like cats better. For instance, my grandmother had a cat that ran away when I and my brother and cousins came over, when we were very young. It didn't like our overbearing attention. But once I was older, it really liked me. It would seek me out when I came over, and demand that I pet it. Why the change? I improved, and the cat recognized that.

To tie this in with Tolkien, I think dogs would serve Morgoth better than cats, because they would, in reality, follow him blindly just because he was "master" without caring whether or not what they were doing was right. (I mean, if you look at them as rational creatures like Huan who even know what right and wrong is.) Cats would make the decision for themselves.

[Frodo Baggins]

Good point Diamond18!!!!

Cats would be intelligent enought to know evil whe they see it, dogs would not.

Like you said, your grandmother's cat would get away when she was being harassed. A dog would be to DUMB to leave.

[Thenamir]

all I can now remember was that (I think) it was by Bulwer Lytton

Bulwer Lytton is most (in)famous for the opening line of an otherwise forgettable story: "It was a dark and stormy night." (He is also responsible for coining the proverb, "The pen is mightier than the sword.") There is an annual contest named for him that seeks to write the very worst possible opening line for a story. If he had had a Bulwer Lytton story about a cat read to him as a child, it is completely understandable that he would make cats part of the darkside of his storytelling...

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

Originally I intended this thread to be a parody of the frequent questions about whether Tolkien was sexist or racist, whether he didn't like liquorice and other irrelevancies. However I've had some new thoughts concerning Tevildo, the war between the cats and dogs and the disappearance of these elements from the legendarium after the Lost Tales that I think would bear further discussion.

It seems to me that the transformation of Tevildo into Thû and later Sauron, coupled with Huan's revised status as a hound of Valinor in the train of Celegorm, shows a movement away from beast fable and the anthropomorphising of animals at an early stage in the mythology. To my mind, the story of Tevildo and Huan, while very entertaining, builds on a young man's prejudices and opinions, which were dropped naturally from the legendarium as he and his mythology matured. The later story of Berúthiel is therefore written in such a way that the Queen is the real villain and her cats mere ciphers, trained to do her spying.

To my mind the war between cats and dogs simply would not work in the Silmarillion and other later writings, and it is a sign of the increasing seriousness of Tolkien's work that animals no longer have personalities, save in certain special cases. Does anyone have any thoughts on this issue?

[ August 16, 2003: Message edited by: The Squatter of Amon Rûdh ]

[Sharkû]

Perhaps we shouldn't rule out the possibility that the author himself, cheeky old bloke that he was, intented the whole thing as a parody itself.

This struck me when skimming over lines such as "His [Tevildo's] purr was like the roll of drums" (HoME II, i), "I smell dog" (ibid.), the onomatopoetic names of T.'s thanes, "his golden collar -- a token no cat dare dishonour" (ibid.), etc.

In any case, whether it is tongue in cheek, or Tolkien's attempt at an explanatory beast fable, giving a reason for the emnity between cats and dogs, and Elves and cats in his Legendarium, the story had no real place among the Silmarillion myths, just like Tolkien apparently ceased to see the need to explain anything about cats at all.

[Rimbaud]

On Bulwer Lytton, and further on Thenamir's point, the line unfortunately did not even have the grace to end there.

The unexpurgated version is thus:

It was a dark and stormy night; the rain fell in torrents -- except at occasional intervals, when it was checked by a violent gust of wind which swept up the streets (for it is in London that our scene lies), rattling along the housetops, and fiercely agitating the scanty flame of the lamps that struggled against the darkness.

There are one or two amongst us with a tenuous grasp of syntax and many more prone to a somewhat wordy style, but even they must here be shamed...

[ August 19, 2003: Message edited by: Rimbaud ]

[lindil]

from the Squatter:

It seems to me that the transformation of Tevildo into Thû and later Sauron, coupled with Huan's revised status as a hound of Valinor in the train of Celegorm, shows a movement away from beast fable and the anthropomorphising of animals at an early stage in the mythology.

from a tenuous grasper of syntax:

I think in fact Tolkien was merely, as Gurdjieff would say, 'burying the dog deeper'.

Meaning he would stress the evilness of cats by having, upon close historical scrutiny historically, Sauron himself descend frm Tevildo. While externally one can see this as a progression away from anthropomorphising, internally it really serves to underscore the 'mordorian' nature of this much doted upon, but so little returning species.

The cats of Queen Beruthiel, of course only serve to bold the underscoring. The one truly evil character of the Dunedain and she has as servants what?

[img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[Sharkû]

However, already Thû, and even more so Sauron, have completely lost all traces of being associated with cats. On the contrary, as Thû is a werewolf.
That is, at any rate, Christopher's analysis:

"The monstrous gormandising cats, their kitchens and their sunning terraces, and their engagingly Elvish-feline names (Miaugion, Miaule, Meoita) all disappeared without trace. Did Tevildo? It would scarcely be true, I think, to say even that Sauron 'originated' in a cat: in the next phase of the legends the Necromancer (Thu) has no feline attributes. On the other hand it would be wrong to regard it as a simple matter of replacement (Thu stepping into the narrative place vacated by Tevildo) without any element of transformation of what was previously there. Tevildo's immediate successor is 'the Lord of Wolves', himself a werewolf, and he retains the Tevildo-trait of hating Huan more than any other creature in the world. Tevildo was 'an evil fay in beastlike shape' (p. 29); and the battle between the two great beasts, the hound against the werewolf (originally the hound against the demon in feline form) was never lost."
(HoME II, i)

[HerenIstarion]

With regards to my recent change of signature, let this thread go up

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by Sharkû

"219 From a letter to Allen & Unwin 14 October 1959

[A Cambridge cat breeder had asked if she could register a litter of Siamese kittens under names taken from The Lord of the Rings.]

My only comment is that of Puck upon mortals. I fear that to me Siamese cats belong to the fauna of Mordor, but you need not tell the cat breeder that."

Without necessarily wanting to spawn a "Was Tolkien a cat-racist thread, I think it is significant that he specifies that SIAMESE cats. Many cat lovers dislike Siameses for their yowling and other personality quirks. I had one friend whose then husband refused to let her have a cat and then said she could only have a cat if it was Siamese knowing she disliked them. This backfired on him when she agreed preferring having any cat to no cat! And even after the (inevitable?) divorce she always had Siamese cats....

Dogs (apart from Huan ) who was a bit of a special case don't always get a great image either if you think of Farmer Maggot's. Middle Earth is almost as short of animals as it is of females :P.