orcs/goblins

[greywind]

hullo... im quite new here.

just wondered if someone knew the difference between orcs and goblins! i am kinda confused really. and where does "uruks" fit in? i know about the uruk-hai, of course, but then there was uruks in mordor too. what are those? and help would be greatly appreciated!

[Elrian]

Orcs and Goblins are the same thing, Goblins was the word used for them in the Hobbit. Uruk-Hai could withstand sunlight and were taller.

[Maeglin]

Hmmm, I didn't know about that.
In the swedish translation the orcs are called another thing in "The hobbit" than in "LOTR" as you said, Elri.

The Hobbit: vätte
The LOTR: orch

But I just thought that the translators had different opinons in how to translate orcs (wich I found quite odd, when there is a swedish name for orcs "orch". And that "vätte" just is a regular name for that kind of beings like orcs, trolls and you know...). But it's all clear to me know, thx a lot! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[ January 26, 2002: Message edited by: Maeglin ]

[greywind]

ok. then, are "uruks" a greater kind of orcs? i know the lotr says frodo and sam saw "uruks" in mordor... but that could not have been the uruk-hai.

did sauron, like sarumann, also mix orc blood with troll blood (i if remember correctly)?

[Inziladun]

Appendix F LoTR says of the word uruk:

Related (to the word orch) no doubt, was the word uruk of the Black Speech, though this was applied as a rule only to the great soldier-orcs that at this time issued from Mordor and Isengard. The lesser kinds were called, especially by the Uruk-hai, snaga'slave'.

[greywind]

well, that sets matters straight. thanks!

[Eldar14]

At Ardalambion, on the page about the Dark Language, there are a few points I will put here. Uruk is most likely derived from Uruk in Quenya, which means terror (Uruki meaning terrors) Hai means most likely people in the Dark Speech (used for both the Uruk-Hai and the Orok-Hai) So Uruk-Hai could just be Terrible People, but since it is only used for the so called "super orcs" (as my brother calls them) it could just be "Terrible Orcs," so the Uruk-Hai would just be orcs who are in some way or another more terrible than regular orcs.

[Cirdan the Shipwright]

Once again, my orc/goblin theory:

All writing regarding orcs & goblins imply that they are indeed the same things.

However (and let me just stipulate that this is pure theory without any basis in Tolkien's writings), I kind of like to think that just as Trolls were made in mockery of Ents and Orcs were made in mockery of Elves, perhaps the Goblins were made in mockery of Dwarves. This would explain a lot of things, particularly the emnity between orcs and goblins.

- Cirdan

[Cirdan the Shipwright]

Scratch that last part. I meant the emnity between goblins and dwarves.

- Cirdan

[Lindolirian]

Orcs and goblins are the same thing. as stated before goblin was used in the Hobbit and orcwas used in LotR. Uruk Hai are the more poweful orcs. they are possibly a mix between orcs and men bred by Saruman. Uruk is just Black Speech for orc.

[Lindolirian]

By the way the Orcs were made bred by Morgoth from Elves a mockery of the Elves. They were tortured in the Darkness until they were stunted, grotesque and evil creatures. Orcs were the slaves of Morgoth and of Sauron. This is stated in the Silmarillion and i think Saruman says somethin about it to his Uruk Hai in the movie.

[Inziladun]

The proper origin of Orcs has been much discussed over time. To be fair, the idea in the Silmarillion that they were 'ruined' Elves is really only the best guess of the Eldar. They didn't know for sure.
As for the movie, and I certainly don't want to start a debate over it here, I wouldn't consider anything said or done there to be canonical. As it's been pointed out to me, the movies are merely an interpretation of the books and should be thought of in that light.

[Lord Syslox of Emyn Beverli]

If you closly (and i mean CLOSELY) read The Two Towers, especially the parts concerning Merry & Pippen's being dragged across Rohan and Aragorn following the trail, you will discover that there are a number of different types of orcs.

I agree that goblin is a word that Tolkien used in the Hobbit for orcs (if you read the preface of the hobbit it says something about this i believe), but as the appendices of LotR states, Uruk and Uruk-hai are the big half orcs half men that could go in the sun.

During M & P captivity, there are other orcs present, the orcs or Mordor (eg Grishnahk) appear to be slightly shorter than the Isengarders with bow legs and long arms. Whether these are the Uruks of Mordor or the normal type of Mordor, i dont know. They seem to stand the sun like the Isengarders, but they dont seem as strong as the Isengarders.

The orcs of the Misty Mountains, are shorter again, and cant stand the sun at all. Ugluk says somewhere that the only thing they're good at is seeing in the dark.

In the Two Towers and Return of the King
in Mordor, the "army" orcs call themselves Uruks and the smaller ones snaga (slave). The smaller types must be similar to the Misty Mts type.

Anyway, thats my reading of it, you can make up your own minds.

[zifnab]

I beileve that Goblins and Orcs are one in the same. Goblin maybe referred to smaller orcs. They is a good description of Goblins and Orcs in The Encyclopedia of Arda.

In the forward of The Hobbit it states:

Orc is not an English word. It occurs in one or two places but is usually translated goblin(or hobgoblin for the larger kinds). Orc is the hobbit's form of the name given at the time to these creatures, and is not connected at all with our orc, ork, applied to sea-animals of dolphin-kind.