Idril like Thetis?

[Rosseiliantiel]

Idril Celebrindal (Silverfoot) and the character in greek mythology, Thetis of the Silver Feet. Coincedence? There are a few similarities.

Thetis was a sea nymph, or Nereid, who appears in many of the Greek Myths and legends, the most prominently in the story of the Trojan War (The Illiad). Some basic facts are she is a Achilles' mother and married to a mortal, Peleus.

Similarities betwenn Idril and Thetis:
Both immortal married to mortals
Both have a close connecton to the sea
Getting picky, both have powerful or royal fathers
And the obvious; the name Silver foot or feet.
Anybody else see this?

[Tirned Tinnu]

Hmm! here's what I found on a simple search:
"Nereus and Doris had fifty daughters (Theogony, 264). Thetis is one of the Daughters of Nereus. As a group, they are called the Nereids. Thetis was given to Peleus (a mortal) for his undying devotion to the gods on Olympos. Thetis and Peleus had a magnificent son, Achilleus. The fate of Achilleus was known to Thetis. Simply put, Achilleus could return to his father and die happy yet forgotten, or, he could die at Troy and be remembered forever as a hero.

To protect her son in battle, Thetis provided Achilleus with armor made by Hephaistos, the smith of the gods. But during the war at Troy, Achilleus was angered by Agamemnon, he refused to fight. Instead, he gave his armor to his friend Patroklos. Patroklos was killed as he pressed the attack to the walls of Ilion. The most brutal fighting of the war was for the armor of Achilleus and the body of Patroklos. The disgrace to his friend’s body and the theft of his armor brought Achilleus into the battle, but not before Thetis could persuade Hephaistos to forge new armor for her, soon to be immortalized, son. When Achilleus strode into battle with his new armor, the Trojans fled in terror. His divine protection was obvious from the blaze of his armor and his divine lineage was also obvious from his beauty and his enormous strength. The Trojans who did not have the good sense or swift feet to run away, were killed. After Achilleus had had his revenge, Thetis led a procession of her sisters up from the depths to morn openly and to cast a divine mist over the body of Patroklos.

When Hephaistos was thrown from Olympos, Thetis and Eurynome healed him and gave him love and protection. The noble smith has never forgotten their kindness.

Thetis in The Iliad (listed by book and line) and other lines edited, these are the ones of most interest to us:
01.280 ...the mother who bore you (Achilleus)
01.538 ...the silver footed
01.556 ...silver footed, daughter of the seas’ ancient one
15.076 ...immortal Thetis
16.222 ...Thetis of the silver feet
16.574 ...Thetis of the silver feet
18.394 ...a goddess we honor
18.407 ...lovely haired Thetis
18.615 ...she, like a hawk
19.006 ...she, shining divinity 20.107 ...Thetis, daughter of the sea’s ancient
21.109 ...my immortal mother (Achilleus) 24.537 ...an immortal wife (to Peleus)
24.562 ...daughter of the sea’s ancient
24.092 ...silver footed Thetis

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Interesting. Must break out my books now... arg! *heh*

[Nar]

Great research, Tirned Tinnu! I always liked Hector better than Achilles-- bit of a sulker, him. There ought to be some comparison to sons we could make. See any similarities between Earandil and Achilles? Both heroes. Actually, they seem fairly dissimilar to me-- Earandil risked everything to get help for Middle Earth and Achilles was just out for glory and revenge.

[Joy]

The only connection that I see with Eärendil and Achilleus is this:

Achilleus could return to his father and die happy yet forgotten, or, he could die at Troy and be remembered forever as a hero.

Eärendil was given the choice of receiving the fate of his father (a mortal) or being accounted with the Immortal - the people of his mother.

Sorry, I don't remember more about Achilleus and Troy - it has been 10 years since studying that.

[Aiwendil]

I always liked Hector better than Achilles-- bit of a sulker, him.

Last year I had to do a paper on this very topic - why modern audiences find Hector more sympathetic than Achilles.

Actually, they seem fairly dissimilar to me-- Earandil risked everything to get help for Middle Earth and Achilles was just out for glory and revenge.

Yes. Tolkien's heroes are much more northern in their outlook. I think that if parallels must be sought it is more fruitful to seek them in the Kalevala, the Elder Edda, and the like than in Homer. Not that Tolkien didn't like the Hellenic classics as well, but I don't think they were really sources of inspiration.

[Nar]

Achilles' actions make sense as part of a soldier ethic-- I'm not sure how 'southern' that is-- could you elaborate on that?

From the point of view of a soldier, the goals are 'do your duty', 'gain glory' (a sign you've executed your duty skillfully and well) and 'protect your friends'-- and, the friends are killed (in battle, by the enemy) then 'avenge your fallen friend(s)'.

This last part of the ethic is problematic when transferred to civilian life, as in the revenge movie-- 'I couldn't protect you, but I'll avenge you' --what's the use of that? Be competant before the loved ones are killed, not aftwerwards when it's too late. Imagine if a mother thought that way : 'I could not be bothered to prevent you from burning your fingers on the hot stove, but by Crom I'll rip this oven apart burner from burner! AIGHGH!'

The revenge ethic makes a lot of sense for a soldier, and even more for a general. For a soldier, the other parts of the ethic require allowing friends to risk harm, and for a general, while presumably they hate losing soldiers, losing some while firing the survivors with feelings of hate and vengeance can advance the cause of the war and increase the chances of winning and ending it.

Revenge is useful locally (soldier) since complete protection of ones friends is not an option within the war and globally (general) for motivating the survivors to greater efforts. In civilian life, revenge is useless locally (civilian) but may be useful globally if a predator is removed or safety procedures made better (society).

Hector is much more accessible because his ethic is compatible with that of a civilian: his family's being attacked and he must protect them. If Hector fails, his wife will be enslaved and his little son will be killed so he can't grow up and seek revenge; that is indeed what happens.

Achilles succeeds in avenging his friend, but the main effect is giving victory to his treacherous general-- and Achilles himself is killed in the end. I can see Achilles' withdrawal as an attempt to break out of that box-- the soldier-ethic being so much more rewarding for the generals and the society deploying both than for the soldiers themselves.

Earendil displays a civilian ethic which is focused on the goal: 'protect family and people, get help!' In that sense, he's more like Hector, except Hector had no one to turn to, his own Gods being immersed in internal negotiation.

The one way that Earendil might resemble Achilles is, strangely enough in Achilles' withdrawal to sulk on the beach. Both were attempting to break out of a box: assumptions about what could be done as a soldier or as an elf/man of Middle Earth. Achilles wanted a way out of serving as a soldier, used and used up by treacherous leaders. Earendil wanted a way out of the previous pattern: the free peoples of Middle Earth gallantly march against Morgoth and are crushed; the free peoples of Middle earth wage canny guerilla actions against Morgoth and annoy, then are crushed; the free peoples lock themselves away in strongholds, endure for a time, then are crushed. Reasonably enough, both felt they needed to a better plan, a way out of the rules as they understood them. Achilles failed to find his way out; Earendil succeeded.

[Aiwendil]

Achilles' actions make sense as part of a soldier ethic-- I'm not sure how 'southern' that is-- could you elaborate on that?

Achilles's ethic (at least at the beginning of the Iliad) is typical of Homeric Greece - he is, of course, part of the Hellenic or 'southern' tradition (as opposed to the later Norse, 'northern' tradition). Yes, it is a soldier ethic, but it is a specific type of soldier ethic. For a Homeric Greek warrior, glory is the only goal worth pursuing. I'm not very familiar with Norse morality, but I'm sure it isn't exactly like the Homeric code. The northern tradition, I believe, emphasizes valor rather than glory; in this view no victory can last and there is a constant struggle against inevitable defeat.

At any rate, Tolkien was certainly much more influenced by Norse mythology than by Greek. Earendil is a very different character from Achilles and I think any parallels between them are an accident of the common themes used throughout mythology, not a conscious reflection.

[Bill Ferny]

Actually, the gaining of glory is the main focus of the warrior in the epic Beowulf. So it is definately not just a southern thing.

Great topic! I enjoyed all the posts, especially Tinnu's and Nar's. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[Aiwendil]

Actually, the gaining of glory is the main focus of the warrior in the epic Beowulf. So it is definately not just a southern thing.

I haven't expressed myself very well. I don't know the specifics of the northern/Norse moral system. The Homeric code was a very specific system of values that was, as far as I know, peculiar to Greece; it was more than just a generic warrior-ethic. I doubt that the northern/Norse moral system is precisely the same as it; in fact I suspect that it differs in some important ways. I know that it differs in this: the northern tradition is preoccupied with the long defeat; glory is hopeless, but must be sought without hope. This is not a feature of the Homeric code. Tolkien was influenced by the Norse tradition much more than by the Hellenic tradition (by all accounts).

Earendil, in fact, as well as most of the other good characters in Arda, adheres to a sort of hybrid Christian/heroic moral system. I think it's fundamentally mistaken to draw parallels between Earendil and Achilles (though comparison may be worthwhile). The thematic ingredients of the two stories are very different. Earendil's is a story about sea-longing, seeking the light/Valar/West, and bringing hope to Middle-earth. Achilles's is about the rejection of certain principles in the Homeric code and the development of a new type of moral system.

[ September 26, 2002: Message edited by: Aiwendil ]